Rachael

Adrienne Bell is the author of over a dozen action-packed romantic comedies. Her love of story structure led her to create Plot MD, a system for crafting compelling stories. She also is the co-host of the weekly podcast, The Misfit’s Guide to Writing Indie Romance, with Eliza Peake. Adrienne lives with her family on the far edge of the San Francisco Bay Area where she spends her downtime reading, watching nerdy television, and scrolling through Disneyland fan sites.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing.

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers.

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you, Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:16] Well, hello writers! Welcome to episode number 149 of “How do you, Write?” I’m Rachel Herron. So thrilled that you’re here with me as I record, it is November 7th, which means its NaNoWriMo. Oh, we’ll talk about that. Uh, speaking of writing a lot of words today, my interview is with Adrienne Bell. She has been on the show before. She’s a friend of mine, and she’s so fabulous and so inspiring and believe it when I tell you that she is that inspiring in person.

So I am very grateful that Adrienne is on my team. She is doing something new for 2020 and you are invited to participate it. In it for free. I know I am. It’s going to help me write a lot of words, so definitely keep listening for that. As I stutter my way along, um, it is November. Let’s go back to that delicious fact.

Ooh, November, November, November. So it’s NaNoWriMo. I am writing a book. I am not editing or revising anything for anyone, which is what I’ve been doing so much off for the last few months. And as I talked to Jay about on the writers, well, my other podcast the other day, it just feels so good to be into the work.

I will tell you I’m behind. I am usually behind a NaNoWriMo. It is something that I am kind of proud of that. Then I normally, if I, if I win, if I’m actually trying to win and I win, I usually pull it off at the last moment. So, that’s definitely gonna happen this time too. But you’re welcome to buddy me over there. I’m Rachael Herron over there. I believe you can buy me and watch me, uh, continually be behind in my words, but it feels so good. I am just writing for fun today. This morning when I was doing my words, I was looking down and it was one of those moments again where I thought to myself, no one would believe how bad these are. My competitive spirit rises, and I think nobody can write this badly. There’s nobody. So I, I’m a little proud of how badly I’m writing. I have to remember every single time that this is my process, I write an obscenely ugly book. It is literally impossible to read, and later I fix it and that is my favorite part.

So that is where I get to shine. But instead of hating first drafts, I don’t do that anymore. I have chosen not to hate first drafts. I have chosen to love first drafts, and so far the first week of November, which is always the best week of NaNoWriMo, has gone wonderfully. Although I’m behind. Second and the third week are always a little bit iffy, you’re getting your muscles but your muscles are sore from writing so much and so little time. I know a lot of you listeners are doing NaNoWriMo. If you are, I would love it if you just tweeted me https://twitter.com/RachaelHerron or drop me an email to tell me how it’s going. Is it your first time? The first time nano? Ah, some beautiful magic, but I swear to you, Nano sparkle doesn’t go away. It just keeps sparkling. So that is what I’ve been doing and it’s fantastic. I love being back at my desk. I love being right here. I would like to say thanks on some new patreons over on https://www.patreon.com/rachael and I haven’t mentioned anybody.

This goes back more than months, so quite a list of names here to whom I am very, very, very grateful that you help keep me in the seat and keep doing this podcast. And even more importantly, keep writing those essays, which I love to write. The last one that came out was about a mattress. It was a story of a mattress and I’ve gotten really good response for it.

If you’d like to join, you can always go read all the essays over there, but thanks to Sam Rory, Kathleen Sullivan, Lisa A. Young, Judith A. Allison, Ivan H, it’s Shawnee Sen edited their pledge up. Thank you very much Shawnee. Jeff and Will, you know, Jeff and Will of the big gay fiction podcast and the big gay fiction writers podcast. I may have gotten the words wrong on the writers one, uh, but I’m soon to be on it, so I’m very pleased about that. They edited their pledge up also, and thank you boys. Let’s see, Lefty, darling Lefty Albay edited her pledge up and thank you to Corey Whitmore and Tammy L. Breitweiser. Hi Tammy!

Thank you. Thank you, all of you so much for helping to support me. Um, I will mention really briefly that the people who upped their pledge this month might’ve done it because I’m starting a new thing. I mentioned it last week, it’s going into effect next week, the mini podcast. I’m going to try to have a mini podcast every week or every other week where I answer people’s questions, who pledge at the $5 level and up.

Basically, I’m your mini coach. You can use me for as many questions as you want and I will answer them on the podcast. Yes. That means that everybody who listens gets the benefit of your questions. However, I will be answering you in particular and you can always ask me anything you want about the creative life, about writing, about depression, about anything that I like talking about, which is basically everything. You get to do that at the $5 level over at https://www.patreon.com/rachael. The reason I am doing that new level, and the reason I’d love you to support me at that level is that I stopped coaching and I’ve lost quite a bit of money from that. I really, really need to have that energy though to continue writing a lot of words in a couple of different projects that I’m working with. So I stopped the Patreon coaching, which pretty much cut my Patreon in half. So if you were moved to pop up to the $5 level, I’d love to be your mini coach and no matter what, you will get the podcasts and thank you to everyone supporting on patreon, it really means the world to me. 

So with no further ado, let us jump into the interview with Adrienne and her new project, which might be your new project, and which case will be in the same slack channel talking about that new project. So onward, happy Nano, happy November. Even if you’re not doing Nano, and I hope you get some fun writing done, I’ll talk to you soon.

Rachael Herron: [00:06:58] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, my friend Adrienne Bell. Hello Adrienne! 

Adrienne Bell: [00:07:05] Hello Rachael, how are you? 

Rachael Herron: [00:07:08] I’m so glad to see you. You’ve been on the show before. You are a friend of how do you write, and a very good friend of mine, so I’m thrilled to see you and you are doing something new and different that we’re going to be talking about because I think my listeners will be very interested in it. But first, let me remember to move the microphone closer to my mouth and give you an intro at the same time. So people all over the country are turning down their volume. Uh, Adrienne Bell is the author of over a dozen action packed romantic comedies. Her love of story structure led her to create plot MD, a system for creating compelling stories. She is also the cohost of the fabulous weekly podcast, the misfits guide to writing indie romance with Eliza Peak, which if you write romance, you should be listening to. Adrienne lives with her family on the far edge of the San Francisco Bay area where she spends her downtime reading, watching nerdy television and scrolling through Disneyland fan sites. Hello! 

Adrienne Bell: [00:08:06] Hello friend!

Rachael Herron: [00:08:08] You do so much plus you have two kids and all of this, and now you’re taking on this new creative endeavor. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:08:15] Yes! 

Rachael Herron: [00:08:16] Recently we were in, um, we were getting a burger together and you mentioned this idea and I, and the friends around us basically freaked the hell out. And will you please tell us about what you’re doing in 2020? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:08:31] Sure. So, uh, what I personally am doing in 2020 is, it is my year to write half a million words. 

Rachael Herron: [00:08:39] Damn. Can you tell us where that comes from? Where does this motivation come from?

Adrienne Bell: [00:08:44] Yeah. Okay, so this came from the fact that, my 2019 has not been a good year for me writing wise.

Rachael Herron: [00:08:54] And you are very prolific. So this is a little bit anomalous.

Adrienne Bell: [00:08:57] Yeah. It’s, uh, I’ve never been as prolific as I’ve wanted to be. Um, which, you know, will go into a little bit later. That’s part of the problem. Um, and I really just had a very bad writing year. I didn’t get as much done as I wanted to get done. Um, I stalled out in the middle of projects. I had a hard time getting things going and off the ground.

It seemed like I had a lot of energy, but that energy didn’t know where it wanted to go or end up where it was going to land. So, I’ve always been a big fan of halves. I don’t know why. I just, whole things scare me, but halves don’t. So I thought I can’t write a million words because I know that there are authors, the two that I’m going to write a million words this year, um, that was not doable to me. And in my mind, I knew that I could not achieve that. So I thought I will do a half a million words. And then I thought, there’s no way I’m going to be able to do this on my own. Right? I will do that thing that I did this year where I get going and I start, and then I sputter out. So I started thinking about how I wanted to do it and what I wanted to do with it. And one of the first things that came up, is that, the way things are sort of geared right now. When you start writing projects, there’s a lot of stuff out there for do it now, do it faster, get it done, have it out, and that wasn’t working with me. That was one of the things that just wasn’t working.

I could not – I could not sustain that for a long period of time. I could get about a week, maybe a week and a half in there of doing, you know, 4,000 words a day. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:10:55] And then it was just empty. Everything inside me was just empty and I would spend a week taking a week off. 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:03] Yeah. For me, I feel like when I do that kind of prolonged, crazy, headlong rush, this gate goes up on my brain and it says, no, the ideas are closed.

Adrienne Bell: [00:11:14] Yes!

Rachael Herron: [00:11:15] You must go rest or get a migraine. Like you. You ha- we’re not giving you any more ideas. You don’t have any. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:11:21] Yes, exactly. And I think we’re really geared right now as sort of a culture to get things done now. Get it faster. And if you’re not busy, then you’re somehow losing out 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:35] Yes

Adrienne Bell: [00:11:36] And you’re not doing it right. And you’re going to fall behind and you’re not winning, you know? So that led me to think in that way and trying to find resources for that sort of thinking. I was having a hard time finding them in the writing world, so I decided if I can’t find it, I might as well make it. Because I can’t be the only one. Right? 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:59] You are obviously not the only one. Yeah.

Adrienne Bell: [00:12:02] So I got this idea about, you know, the tortoise and the hare. Everything right now is very hare focused. It’s go, go, go till you crash. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:12] If you don’t write a book every month, then you are, you might as well quit? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:12:16] Exactly. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:17] Yeah. That is the hare, that is a really skinny, stressed out, cracked out hare.

Adrienne Bell: [00:12:22] Exactly. So I decided that’s not what I want to focus on in 2020, I want to focus on taking that hare mindset that’s, you know, sort of been put on me and changing it into a tortoise mindset, which is incremental change that builds over a long period of time. So putting that with the 50, you know, the, I’m sorry, the half a million words. I’m stuck in Nano, I’m like 50,000 words 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:52] And to be – and to be honest, what you’re talking about is 10 Nanos over the course of a year. So that’s still sounds like a lot to me. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:13:00] Well, the thing is, that’s what I’m doing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:13:03] Right, right, right. Explain, explain more about this. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:13:07] So that’s where the seed came from. But when I was talking to you and our friend Shannon, and our friend Sophie about it, we started to think about other ways to put that, because there’s a lot of people out there that don’t want to write half a million words, and that’s totally fine. And so we came up with the concept of you know, it’s your year to write hella words.

Rachael Herron: [00:13:36] A lot of that! Hella is a word from the Bay from where we live. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:13:43] It is. And it’s incredibly malleable. You can use it to describe so many things. My hella is not your hella. Hella is usually upbeat. It’s usually very positive. It’s something that’s happening. It’s got a lot of energy in it, but it’s very malleable. You can use hella to mean whatever you want it to mean, and I can use it to mean whatever I want it to mean, because my situation as a professional writer, someone who, this is my day job, my days are going to look very different than someone who has to go work a nine to five and then come home.

Rachael Herron: [00:14:20] Yes

Adrienne Bell: [00:14:21] Or someone who works in retail and has odd hours and then has to come home and write

Rachael Herron: [00:14:25] um, Oh, sorry. I have students that have nine to fives and they’ve never written before, and to them, hella words in a year would be 25,000 and that would be amazing. Right?

Adrienne Bell: [00:14:35] Exactly. And it’s wonderful. So it’s taking the time that you have, making it a very realistic plan of what it is. What can you write? Can you write 500 words Monday through Friday and then a thousand words every weekend? If you do that, you come out with over 200,000 words in a year. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:58] Wow. More than two bucks. More than three bucks. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:15:03] That is hella words. And so it’s this idea that it doesn’t have to be right the second right now, take all of your insides and pour them out. And if you’re not doing that, then you’re losing it. It’s taking this tortoise-like steps. It’s about showing up every day. It’s about learning to trust yourself. It’s about learning to be patient with yourself. It’s about learning to believe in yourself and your own value and your own worth, and that sort of what it’s morphed into. It’s become so much bigger than just this idea of half a million words, but that – through taking these little incremental steps, things build and they build, and then all of a sudden, what you have a few months in, or a few hundred thousand words, and you know, after that, at the end of the year, you can have, you can have half a million words. You can have 250,000 words. You can have 100,000 words. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:01] What is this going to? What is your math look like for this, for you personally, Adrienne Bell, what are you going to write every day? Um, what is your word goal for this? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:16:11] I am going to write every day, but only for one year. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:16] Alright. That sounds crazy. Number one, only for one year. I’m going to write every day that, uh, and the reason, the reason I react like this and you know this, is that I am incredibly diligent when I’m writing a first draft, but when I’m just kind of screwing around, trying things, I can go for days or weeks, and I’m not proud to say this, but I’m a full time writer and I won’t write first draft. I just, it nothing will come out of me. So the, the idea of writing every day is something I am so attracted, attracted to and I’ve never been able to pull it off. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:16:49] Yes. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:49] So tell me how you are going to approach that and this, does this start January 1st? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:16:54] It does start January 1st but honestly, I started in October with practicing and I’m treating NaNoWriMo sort of as a bootcamp.

Rachael Herron: [00:17:04] I love that. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:17:06] Because the NaNoWriMo daily goal is larger than my daily goal will be for my hella words project. 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:14] What is your daily goal over that year? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:17:16] 1370 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:17] That sounds completely doable to me. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:17:19] Exactly 1370 a day. That’s all I have to do, so I’m not thinking of it as, you know, I will do 1370 every day for a year.

Rachael Herron: [00:17:30] Okay. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:17:31] It’s that I have to wake up on January 1st and do 1370. Then once I go to bed that night, I have to wake up on January 2nd and I have to do 1370. 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:39] It’s just, it’s like one day at a time 

Adrienne Bell: [00:17:42] It is. Just like one day at a time.

Rachael Herron: [00:17:44] I have never quit drinking. I have only quit drinking for today. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:17:48] Exactly.

Rachael Herron: [00:17:49] Because if I thought about doing it for the next year, I would stab myself in the eye. Yeah.

Adrienne Bell: [00:17:52] And that’s what happens to me on these big, get-it-done-all-at-once projects, it becomes too big. So I’m not looking at that. I’m looking at smaller chunks and just saying, I just have to do this much today. So, um, we’ve – there’s actually a slack channel that’s involved in this, and it’s come up a couple of times in the conversation, which is nice, which is, you know, you sort of have to know what kind of writer you are and you can use this prep time to figure it out. Because I’m very focused on just naturally on first drafts. I write sort of clean first drafts, but they take me a long time to write. 1370 will take me about three to three and half hours a day to write. 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:37] Okay. See, and I can do that in like 45 minutes. And it’s the ugliest-

Adrienne Bell: [00:18:42] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:18:43] Like there’s no sentence in there. There’s barely any periods. It’s just, you know, it takes a long time to, to fix later. So that’s really interesting. Everybody is going to vary.  

Adrienne Bell: [00:18:53] Exactly. So what is, what words are you going for? Are you going for clean words by the end of the year, or are you going for first draft words? Um, so for me, it’s, my words come at start out cleaner, but they take a long time. So my plan is to do my 1370 in the mornings and then do revisions on another project for a few hours at in the afternoon. And then there will be some time put aside for the marketing of my career. But then I also plan to be done by six o’clock and that is a big deal for me because I have not been able to strike that balance.

And so far in practicing, I’ve been able to do it. So I’ve been able to craft, which I haven’t been able to do for a long time. I’ve been able to read, you know, it’s little things like that, but that’s really what I wanted to get out of this with some sense of balance and I couldn’t get that with the frantic, do everything now, be everything to everyone. So switching to that turtle mindset that tortoise mindset has really helped. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:58] Oh, this is so attractive to me. My problem when I’m writing on a really regular basis, like, you know, 1500 words a day or a thousand words a day or whatever, and keeping it going is that, every once in a while I have to stop and replot because my plot has gone completely off the rails.

You know, I started in New York and now I’m in Baja and I don’t know how I got there. Um, talk to me about your- your process for working on that because you are doing a little bit of pre-gaming on that too, right? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:20:30] I am. That’s why I’m starting now. I will be, I’m planning on writing a outline for everything is that I’m going to write in 2020 and I’m planning to have all of those outlines done by January 1^st.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:45] Oh, that must feel really good.

Adrienne Bell: [00:20:50] I did see plans.

So, okay. I’m going to try to make that happen, and that means that when I wake up in the morning, I will know what I’m going to write that day. Huge. But it’s only 50 50 because just like you, I get there and it, it doesn’t quite work, but at least then I have a roadmap and hopefully that’ll help. But you know, I’m sure so many things are gonna go wrong and not to plan during this year, which is why I’m keeping a blog about it. And we’ll see what happens and what pitfalls happen along the way. And hopefully, you know, I believe in honesty in this sort of stuff because we’re all in this together and sugarcoating it does no one any good.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:36] So will you allow yourself in your roles to right words in advance or to catch up on words if you miss them, or do you just. Like, pick up clean and say, all right, 1300 more words today, or…

Adrienne Bell: [00:21:51] No, for me it’s going to be 1370 every day. Um, and I, it’s fine. If anybody else how anyone else structures their year is, is fine. What I really want people is to be strategic and to think about their own needs instead of someone else’s needs.

That’s- It’s weird, but that really what makes me happy when people, um, really figure out what they need for themselves and start to put down their flag for that. For me, it’s about learning to show up.

Um, a lot. I think I’ve missed out on a lot of things in life because I haven’t shown up for them. And to me, this is about showing up every day. So one of the things that I’m going to do is on January 1st I’m putting a pushpin in my wall. And a paper clip and every single day when I finished my 1370 I will put another paper clip on the chain and my entire job for all of 2020 my only job is to never break that chain. That’s my one job.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:00] That makes me kind of want to cry, like that’s so beautiful. It really, it really does. And I’m very moved by you saying this about showing up because I have, I’m really good at not showing up. I’m, yeah, I’m excellent at it. I love to take weekends off. Um, that is one of the things that I’ve always put a flag in as a full time writer, I take weekends off. However,

Adrienne Bell: [00:23:20] Yeah, and that’s fine.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:21] It’s fine, and I believe that. I love that. However, it makes me very capable on a random Tuesday when there’s just a lot of stuff coming into my email to say, Oh, this is another day I don’t write. And the next Thursday, Oh, this is another day I don’t write. And I’m very attracted and scared of, but still attracted by this idea of copying you and not, not necessarily in terms of words

Adrienne Bell: [00:23:44] Yeah, no.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:44] I haven’t done my math or something like that, but to try to write every day, even if my goal was to write a certain number of words five days a week. But to also write some words on the weekend, even if it’s just 50 words, because I really feel like not showing up to something that hurts me in my regular life and not nobody else. I’m always speaking about me. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:24:05] And that’s a hard thing for, let’s face it, women and especially women in the arts to do. Because when we say we don’t show up, what we’re saying is we don’t show up for ourselves. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:15] Yes

Adrienne Bell: [00:24:16] We show up for everybody else. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:17] Absolutely. I always show up for everybody else. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:24:19] Exactly. I will show up for everyone else and that’s where my writing time was going. Um. Of course there are things in my life that I, I will always show up for other people. I have a family. I have children. I will always show up for my family. I will always show up for my children. But one thing that I can do to teach my children their own words is to say when you want to create something, if you want to make something, you have to believe in it and you have to carve out the time believing in that you have to believe in yourself. And you have to show your kids that you can do that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:57] Yeah

Adrienne Bell: [00:25:59] You know? And that there are things that are important and that what’s inside of them is important. And the only way you can do that is by showing them that what’s inside of you personally as a parent is important.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:08] That’s gorgeous. And I, I don’t have kids, so I don’t have that, but I just kind of extrapolated it to a much less, um, romantic or poetic idea that if somebody, you know, like an old boss of mine, if it was in my job description to write 1300 words a day, I wouldn’t even think about it. It would just, it would happen every single day without fail, and I would not resent it. I have not dread it. I just, that’s just part of my day. I brush my teeth because it’s required in society and in my mouth. It doesn’t, I don’t resent it. So I might just kind of trying to change my thinking around this. Oh, this is why I wanted to talk to you about it. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:25:49] They’re big ideas and- but there, they’re not sexy. Like you can’t, it’s, it’s hard to be like, you know

Rachael Herron: [00:25:54] I find them sexy, 

Adrienne Bell: [00:25:56] incremental, and sustainable growth. When do we want it? Over a period of months and years! You know, it’s- 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:04] I would be in that rally.

Adrienne Bell: [00:26:06] It’s hard to rally around, but I think in the long term it’s sustainable. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:11] So talk to me about the Slack channel because I only just joined, so I haven’t actually had too much time to poke around in there. Is that going to be, and so I, first of all. Um, people know from listening to my podcast, but I’m a huge fan of Slack channels. It’s kind of taking over the space where Facebook groups used to be, and I just hate Facebook as a concept and I don’t go there enough even if I, yeah, I have a Facebook group over there and I’m completely abandoned them for the sake of the Slack channel.

Um, so what have you found with the Slack channel? What do you like about it? What’s, what’s working? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:26:42] What’s nice is we have a, uh, a fun group of people that are over there now. So what you do is you go to the website, which is right, hellawords.com, and there’s, there’s a button there that says join Slack channel. And, all you have to do is tell me a little bit about yourself, not, not crazy, just enough so that, we make sure that the channel stays for writers. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:08] Not spambots.

Adrienne Bell: [00:27:09] Yeah, exactly. Um, and then once you’re in the Slack channel, it’s a lot of people that are talking about, what they’re writing today, what their word camp goals are, how they’re prepping. Um, there are different channels on their different threads for if you need encouragement, if you want to celebrate your successes. Different ones for plotters and for pancers. The only rules that I have are very simple there; Don’t be a jerk. Um, 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:42] I love that rule box that you had in there. And, and tell us what you compared yourself to.

Adrienne Bell: [00:27:47] Oh, uh, yeah. I’m the yard duty of this playground, so I don’t want to have to blow my whistle. So just don’t make me blow my whistle. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:58] I do not F with the yard duty woman. No, I never did. I never will. If she tells me what to do, I will do it. And I love that. But what you’re doing in that too is you’re presenting a safe space. People know the rules; they know that you’re going to protect them if anything pops up. But honestly, in all of my writing groups, knock wood, have never had a problem with jerks in there. And I predicted that you will not either, but, but you have those rules in place.

Adrienne Bell: [00:28:21] Exactly. Just don’t, just don’t be a jerk. And if you can be not a jerk, then you’re welcome to play on our playground and figure out if this is for you and how you know to make best and productive use of your 2020 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:38] Do you think that people will come in and use the Slack channel? Every day is like an accountability thing. Like I did my words. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:28:44] Some people have. Some people have, and some people have only poked their heads in a few times. It’s exactly what’s nice is it’s an ever changing thing, so it can be whatever you want it to be. Um, and people are using it to their needs and they’re adapting it just like they’re adapting their word counts. And so that’s the part that I’ve really enjoyed about it, is that people are going there and they’re not afraid to say, this is what I need from this. Um, and then those that can give it are giving it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:15] And it’s just starting, like, we are recording this in November. Uh, if listener, so say, say this, if listeners want to practice during Nano, but they didn’t even sign up for Nano, they can still jump on board, right? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:29:27] Of course, you can jump on and onboard and anytime. Let’s say you find this video and it is March of 2020 and you’re a brand new onto this idea and you’re like, Hey, did I miss the terrain? No, you’re fine. Jump on board at any time. Um, these are just random goalposts. You are the one that’s in charge. You can make it start and stop whenever you want to get off. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:52] What I really love about this is the whole idea of us showing up for ourselves. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:30:04] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:05] That’s just seeing it like that is so inspiring to me. You know? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:30:06] Yeah. And a little scary. I will admit, I’m still practicing saying that to myself. I’m like, I am doing these words, not because I have to, but because I want to because this is who I am, and that’s really hard to say. Even after what, 10 years of- of writing. Yeah. It’s very difficult. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:27] That is fascinating. Okay. So, um, I am on board to write hella words. Uh, let’s tell people again where we can go, write hellawords.com is where it all kicks off, right? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:30:36] Exactly. And into write hellawords.com, and you can read more about it and you can join the Slack channel thing here. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:42] And is that where the blog is also? 

Adrienne Bell: [00:30:44] That is where the blog is and where all updates will happen. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:49] Can I make a suggestion already?

Adrienne Bell: [00:30:51] Of course you can.

Rachael Herron: [00:30:52] ‘Cause I will, I will never remember to go to a blog ever, ever, ever. But I go, I look at Slack every day, all day, basically. And maybe you could do a blog channel and double post them over on the site to grab people and also in Slack so we can read them in there. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:31:06] Oh yeah, 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:08] I know right, Rachael did not ask for your advice 

Adrienne Bell: [00:31:13] We will be giving notifications in there, but I haven’t been

Rachael Herron: [00:31:15] Oh, notifications work too. Notifications work too so I can always click over, because what I really want to do is to follow your process as well and follow what’s in your head, and I knew we’re friends, we’re going to hang out and you’re going to tell me about it, but I also just kind of want to see how you’re doing this. I find you always so inspiring and in this really, really, really inspiring. And I appreciate it because I feel like this is something that I have really needed for myself. And you’re providing a container for that. 

Adrienne Bell: [00:31:43] Thank you so much for giving me the space to tell other people about it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:46] Yes. So please, listeners, come on over introduce yourselves, and um, let’s play. Let’s do this. Let’s make 2020. Very surprisingly awesome.

Adrienne Bell: [00:31:56]. Yes, exactly.

Rachael Herron: [00:31:57] Thanks Adrianne. Thank you so much. We will be talking soon. Bye! 

Adrienne Bell: [00:32:03] Bye!

Rachael Herron: [00:32:05] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you, Write?” You can reach me on Twitter https://twitter.com/RachaelHerronor at my website, rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life.

For as little as a buck an essay at https://www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers http://rachaelherron.com/write/. Now, go to your desk and create your own process. Get to writing my friends.

Rachael goes on vacation and talks about some big, new decisions. She’s stopping an income stream, and trying some others. Listen in!

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing.

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers.

Transcript:

Rachael: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you, Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing. 

[00:00:15] Well, hello writers! Welcome to episode number 148 of “How do you, Write?”

[00:00:21] I am Rachael Herron and I am so pleased that you’re back here with me after I took a few weeks off to be on vacation. It is, today it is October 31st and you know what that means? It means that tomorrow is the start of the best time of the year. And yes, I’m talking about NaNoWriMo my friends. You know how I feel about NaNo… 

[00:00:46] Hello cat. This cat is going to complain the whole time, so I’m just going to pretend like he’s not here. He’s kind of a whiner. Um, I have a lot to tell you so this is just going to be a solo show. Probably will be a pretty quick one, but I wanted to catch you up on what has been going on around here. I was away and boy was I ever away.

[00:01:09] I was away, away. I, we went to Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon, Antelope Canyon, Zion, and then to Vegas. It was about 10 or 11 days, and the majority of that time was spent offline. I could not go online if I wanted to. So when you can’t go online, you stay offline. And I read so much, I did not respond to email.

[00:01:39] My email was a nightmare. It was a garbage can fire when I got back. It was incredible. But I have fought my way through that and I’ve come up on the other side, still breathing. I’m still alive. And, I just realized that I needed a break. I didn’t know that I had needed that much of a break, but I really, really did.

[00:02:00] And it was so enjoyable. So, the quickly we get there, we find a Phoenix, we drive up and we get to the Grand Canyon after dark. And neither my wife and I have ever seen the Grand Canyon, even though I was born in Arizona. Uh, so we just go to the hotel, we go to sleep. But we get up very early, we barely missed any sunsets or any sunrises.

[00:02:24] We tried to view them all wherever we were. So we got up heck early and drove ourselves over to a place in the Canyon, took the shuttle bus to a place I’d researched, had a good sunrise, and we set ourselves up on the cliff just to watch it happen. And it was incredible. That’s where we met the Grand Canyon.

[00:02:45] The sun came up and I was telling Jay about this on my other podcast, the writer as well, and every time we thought the sun rise was over, he got better and it got bigger and grander. We went on this wonderful fossil hike with a ranger, and he kept saying, “Here at the grandest of canyons…” and I really do believe that is the grandest of canyons.

[00:03:12] It is like nothing I’ve ever seen. It did not disappoint. I was kind of a little bit worried it would disappoint because I’ve heard about it my entire life, and it’s just gonna be a big hole in the ground, but to be looking down at rock, and I say looking, because we’ve not climb all the way down there. But to be looking down at that black rock, which is 1.8 million years old and it is exposed to air. It has been there since then. The top layers of the Grand Canyon don’t have any fossils of dinosaurs because the top layer has been worn away. Right. The fossils that we saw were pre-dinosaurs.

[00:03:52] Oh, it just boggles the mind. And I feel like I look at geology and I look at the Hills around here. I look at everything so differently now that I’ve seen basically this cross cut of what’s happening in there and what has happened in the timeline of this earth. And it made me feel very small, very insignificant, and also very lucky to be living in a time right now where as a woman, I can choose to make my own money. I can choose to marry another woman. I can choose to use the money that we make to go to the Grand Canyon and spend time there on our vacation. And I just felt very, very, very grateful. Then we went to Bryce, which was so cold. We had gone from 92 degrees when we landed in Arizona. Um, it was beautiful at Grand Canyon, 70, 75 and then it was 22 degrees with a windchill in Bryce.

[00:04:47] So we greeted that sunrise with abject terror. We’re on the face of this cliff trying to look down into the hoodoos at Bryce and the wind was so intense and in my head I knew we were fine. It was just cold. We were wearing all of our layers. We were still called. We don’t have jackets. We’re from California.

[00:05:08] But my body, the looser brain said, you are going to die. There were children sobbing out on that platform where we were. Their parents wanted them to see the sunrise, but they’re like, “Please Daddy, no more I can’t take it.” It was pretty funny, but Bryce was beautiful. And then we went to, I guess before that, we went to Antelope Canyon, which are all of those red rock scenes, the that you see the sculpted rock walls that have happened in these slot canyons as millions of years of flooding water has gone through them and has created these incredible shapes.

[00:05:49] It was literally impossible to take a bad picture in there. You see these pictures of the slot canyons and you think, Oh, those are; What amazing photographers they are when they take those pictures. You do not have to be, you just have to point your camera in any direction and take a picture. In fact, Lala took a bunch of pictures like that just by holding it up and pointing and shooting, and she couldn’t tell which ones they weren’t later.

[00:06:10] It’s that incredible and that beautiful. It was stunning. I am so glad that we took the time to do that. Then we went to Zion, which was rad because number one, it is incredibly beautiful and the leaves were turning and the hiking was amazing, but we also glamp it up. We did a little bit of glamping in these, uh, these tent cabins that were big, and they had this enormous California king bed that was huge and high and fluffy and downy comforters and wonderful pillows and a wood stove that you got to start yourself. They will give you all the stuff to start it. And I tell you what, a woodstove? Boom! That tent is hot. It goes from, you know from freezing, literally freezing to hot instantly.

[00:07:05] And it was pretty fun. It was my job to feed the fire, and that was awesome. Um, both nights that we stayed there, I did not quite manage to beat it all night and we woke up freezing, but soon I got another fire started and that was very fun to be there. And they have, you know, a restaurant there and you’re eating outside and you’re watching the rocks change in the sunset.

[00:07:28] Then we went to Vegas and saw Lady Gaga. And Vegas was Vegas. Vegas is exactly what it is. No more, no less. Um, it would be very hard for it to be any less. Actually, it’s Vegas. But the wonderful thing that happened was Jay had, Joanna had heard that I was going to Vegas. Joanna Penn, who, uh, has the amazing podcasts, The Creative Pen, which is just one of my favorite podcasts on earth. I never miss it. If you are not listening to the creative pen in your writer, you should listen to it. She had reached out to Jay to say, is it okay if you give me her phone number because I’m going to be in Vegas too. She’s from Britain.

[00:08:06] She lives in Bach, but we happen to be in Vegas at the same time. So we grabbed a breakfast together and we had to talk all things writing plus all things life related, and we’d never met in person, and it was just such a great breakfast. It was this obscene Las Vegas breakfast with so much food.

[00:08:25] She was sensible and got a sensible breakfast, Lala and I did the Vegas thing, and we never even touched our leftovers. I had been eating and eating and eating, and then we got a box to go and it still looked like I had not started eating my- the plate of my food, yet. It was that kind of breakfast.

[00:08:40] Uh, but again, I was just struck with this gratitude of being able to hook up with a friend and make that friend in real life. It was so joyful. It was also a little bit stressful for me to be in Vegas. This is my first time in Vegas since I quit drinking 20 months ago. And, um, yeah, there are some people doing some stupid alcohol things there.

[00:09:03] But at other times that alcohol, really good. So I was cool. I made it. I’m home. I was very grateful to be home because I had been missing writing so much. That was the best part of being away, was really realizing how much I was missing writing. And tomorrow’s NaNoWriMo. It starts, and this year.

[00:09:32] Barring unforeseen things to happen in my publishing world, I will be writing a full novel in the month of November. I am aiming for about 80 to 85,000 words. I think on this first draft of this book that I’m very, very excited to write and I will give you its high concept pitch. Uh, basically a woman who is like Marie Kondo but is not Marie Kondo. Marie Kondo wants her stuff back there. That’s the pitch. It makes me laugh every time she regrets minimalism. Um, so that’s what I’m going to be writing and I’m just going to be having a lark doing it while I was gone. And this is what I wanted to talk about really to you today is, I just had this mindset shift.

[00:10:13] I came back knowing that the way that I run my writing business is great. It works for me. Uh, you know, I always catch you up on the money that I make the beginning of the year. I will just say, and I tell you how I make it in that first episode of the year, um, but I will just say two weeks ago before we left, I hit six figures in mid-October.

[00:10:38] So I’m going to be making more than that, more than I made last year, which was the, you know, six figures in just a little bit. Uh, but I hit that I’ve already hit and surpassed that for this year, which is incredible. Considering that, um, a great deal of my money’s, most of my money’s come from coaching, teaching, writing articles, doing all of those things that does not come from selling books. Because that is hard to make money on and it would be interesting to find out how much I made this year on books. I wonder if it’ll be lower or higher. I’m guessing right now it’s going to be a little bit lower than last year because I only put out one book this year, so we’ll see. Well, I’ll catch you up on that, but I came back with the willingness and the peace of mind after being offline and not thinking about work for so long, but I was really willing to think about work from a higher level and I want more time to write.

[00:11:37] I want to try to make some more money. With books and a little bit less with teaching and coaching, which is terrifying because I don’t know if I can do it, but I will not find out if I can do it until I make some space for that. Right now, all of my afternoons pretty much are just stacked back to back to back to back with clients, which is a great problem to have.

[00:12:00] I am not complaining about it. This is a diamond problem. Dab dimes on the soles of your shoes, as Paul Simon would say. And I am giving up a couple of things. I’m going to give up my Patrion high level coaching, uh, at $100 for my Patrion campaign. In the past, you’ve been able to get, words read by me and critiqued, edited, and a chat every month to go over those words and just to talk about where you are. I came back and canceled that and I had 10 people on that level. So I am basically rejecting a $1,000 a month, which- I live in the Bay area, we have a huge mortgage. Um, Oh, the cat was tangled in my dress. Goodness. Uh, and that’s terrifying to me that I just did that. And when I did it, it felt right.

[00:12:55] I don’t know how I’m gonna make that money up. I’m going to try different kinds of things moving forward. Uh, things that will impact my own work less. I will still be taking clients on one off basis. If you ever want me to look at your work or to talk to you about your stuff, you can always go to rachaelherron.com/coach all my options are there, but I’m charging a little bit more and I’m only doing one offs. I’m not doing them on a monthly basis. When you do them on a monthly basis, people feel like they have to meet with you on a monthly basis. Now I can meet with them whenever they need me, which is probably going to be more like every six weeks or every 12 weeks at the point at which they panic and say, “Oh God, I need help!” They’ll make an appointment. I’ll have more time. So I’m happy about that. I am doing something new of my Patreon campaign, which I’m just going to tell you about right now. I’m adding at the $5 tier. If you pay $5 a month, you get to be part of my Q&A audience, and what that means is I’m going to be trying to bring to you, short mini podcasts in the middle of the week answering those questions that come from my $5 Q&A Patreons. Basically, it’s mini coaching. You can ask me whatever you want, as many questions as you want, whenever you want, and I’ll answer them in the mini podcast episode. So if you wanted to support me like that, I’d sure be grateful as a https://www.patreon.com/rachael R, A, C, H, A, E, L and hopefully I’ll get some people like that and then we’ll get some more podcasts too.

[00:14:23] We’ll get these mini episodes, which I think will be really fun. They will not replace the interview episodes, the longer ones, uh, but they will be in addition to, and they will deal exactly with what I want to talk about more, which is craft, which is the business. I talk a lot at interview, uh, interviewees about process, but that means we do not talk that often about craft and about the business of writing.

[00:14:48] So please, if you’d like to throw as many questions at me as you want, anytime, hoover there, and join that, it’s felt really good to have this mindset. It also feels scary, but I do think that if you’re not scared in your business, then you’re probably doing it wrong. Honestly, there’s always has to be a cutting edge of fear, right?

[00:15:10] I can’t be lax or, well, I would like to relax and I did relax. That was great. I could take some more of that. Um, but it feels good to be making these decisions to write more, to spend more of my time doing the thing that is most important to me. That makes my heart sing. Which is writing. It’s always been writing and it always will be writing and reading.

[00:15:33] Oh my gosh. I got so much reading done on my trip and I still have like eight library books on my Kindle. I cannot turn my Kindle on because it’s in airplane mode. If I turn my Kindle on to the wifi, all those books will be stripped off, so I’ve got to read a lot of books in the next couple of weeks.

[00:15:51] One more thing that I wanted to tell you about, is I’m just putting the finishing touches on my spring retreat. I usually go to Venice, and I think I shared with you guys a while back that I’m just not feeling Venice. I love Venice is the city of my harness, my favorite place in the world to be. And I’ve been there every year for the past three or four years, which is incredible and so lucky! And amazing, but I need a little bit of a break. Maybe so that I would say so that Venice could miss me, but I know that, that it says not give a rat’s ass about me so that I can miss Venice perhaps.

[00:16:26] Ooh, that sounds delicious. So this year I’m going to do Barcelona, putting the finishing touches on that. I got the hotel that I wanted, that I scoped out when I was there. It’s in the best part of town. It is the best hotel. It is gorgeous. Oh, I’m so excited about it and those dates. Um, so if you want to put a 10 definitely on your calendar are going to be April 26th through May 2nd it’s a weeklong retreat.

[00:16:47] I’ll tell you more about it when everything is up, when you can register for it, but I just wanted to put it on your radar. I’ll probably be announcing the opening of it next week on my podcast. So those slots go very, very fast. Um, my, your portraits always sell out. So if you are interested in that, in doing that, it is really one of the best times I have all year.

[00:17:09] And the people who do them go on them over and over again. So they’re obviously getting something out of them too. We write in the mornings, and then we play and explore in the city in the afternoon and evening. So, and I set all of that step up for you, so you just have to attend. That is what I’m working on right now.

[00:17:27] I feel like I’m working on nine other things that I am forgetting to tell you about, but what I’m really excited about most is starting NaNoWriMo tomorrow. NaNoWriMo in 2006 was the online LARC that I participated in, that changed my life completely, absolutely, completely. It taught me how to write a book fast and badly so that later I could revise it and you know how I feel about it.

[00:17:53] I believe 99% of writers, that is their process to write it fast and badly. If you write and you revise as you go and you’re finishing good books, then that’s your system. If you write and revise as you go and you’re not finishing good books, then that’s not your system. Your system is actually like most of the rest of ours, which is to go as fast as you possibly can, which is the NaNoWriMo way.

[00:18:14] I actually got a really great chance to speak to Chris Beatty’s class last night at Stanford. He teaches, he’s the founder of NaNoWriMo, and he teaches a class every year at Stanford and the same program I teach in. On NaNoWriMo, and he has a 100% success rate with his students. Every single student that he’s ever had in that class has won NaNoWriMo.

[00:18:37] So, which I think is really remarkable because I think honestly, it’s only something like seven or 8% maybe 12% it’s, it’s low of the rest of the world who finishes NaNoWriMo, who are into NaNoWriMo. But, um, that was really fun. And it got my – excite levels are so, so high. I cannot wait. So if you’re doing NaNoWriMo, I would love to hear about it.

[00:19:01] Drop me a line, at anywhere. Twitter, Facebook, Email. You can find me on rachael@rachaelherron.com. Um, reach out. Tell me how you’re doing. Tell me what you want to do. Tell me if you’re interested in Barcelona. Sign up for the new $5 Patreon Q&A. If I don’t get anybody on there, then I won’t do those little mini episodes.

[00:19:21] That’s just dependent on whether people drive that by wanting those mini episodes on craft of business. So, um, I’ll wait and see how that pans out. And in the meantime, I’m jumping, taking the leap into letting go of a lot of my coaching and leaping into more writing. Ah, I’m scared to saying it, but I am completely excited.

[00:19:43] I’m completely excited. It feels, I feel genuine. Um, I had a day yesterday that just, it happened to be a full day of writing. I didn’t have anything scheduled and it felt like me, I love coaching. Don’t get me wrong. That is, I get so much energy out of coaching and talking to writers. But I need those sometimes days that are just writing and I don’t have any of them right now.

[00:20:06] So this is going to be amazing and exciting. Tell me what you think. And in the meantime, I wish you happy writing. If you have never done NaNoWriMo, and you’re listening to this on November 7th that there is still time, there are people who write 50,000 words on the last day, those people write 24 hours a day and they are crazy.

[00:20:25] I would not recommend that. That’s going to break your hand. There are also people who write 50,000 words. On the first day also insane. Then there are other fools who write 500,000 words in the month of November. We don’t like them, who we like a good hard challenge, which is NaNoWriMo, which is 50,000 words in the month of November.

[00:20:44] If I forgot to say that, if you don’t know what that is, which ends up to be 1,667 words a day, absolutely doable. Absolutely doable. So, yeah, I’ve never tried it. It’s super, super fun. Let me know. I am, I think I’m just Rachel here and over there, so please buddy me, make buddies with me and we will watch each other’s progress.

[00:21:07] That is all my friends. It is so nice to connect again, thank you so much for listening, for being along with me on this ride. I am very, very – I’m feeling grateful about everything, especially you guys. You listeners, who reach out and also the listeners, who don’t reach out. All the listeners that I know I have because I see the numbers that are writing in their card.

[00:21:29] You don’t have to respond back to everything I ask. I just, I still know that you’re out there and then we’re connecting and you continue to listen. So, um, that’s a good sign. If there’s anything you would like me to do differently, let me know. If it’s something like slow down my speech, which I do get requested to do every once in a while. I can’t. It’s impossible. I have not even had any coffee today. This is just the way I talk. I’m sorry, but anything else? I’m willing to take suggestions, so thank you my friends and I wish you very happy and sweet writing. 

[00:22:09] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you, Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, https://twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, rachaelherron.com. You can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at https://www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A C H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers at http://rachaelherron.com/write/ Now, go to your desk and create your own process.

Get to writing my friends.

AMY RIGBY is a songwriter, musician and performer. Her most recent album The Old Guys was voted one of the top 100 albums of 2018 in the Pazz & Jop US music critics’ poll. Her memoir Girl To City will be published October 8th. She plays her songs all over the world and writes online at diaryofamyrigby.wordpress.com. She lives with her husband and sometime duet partner Wreckless Eric in New York’s Hudson Valley. When she isn’t touring, she pours beer and sells books at The Spotty Dog in Hudson.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing.

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers.

Rachael’s author assistant, Ed, can be reached at EdwardGiordano@gmail.com and he’s awesome!

Rachael: [00:01] Welcome to How Do You Write, I’m your host Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is, and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Rachael: [00:15] Well, hello there writers, welcome to episode number 147 of How Do you Write. I’m Rachael Herron, completely thrilled that you’re here today. Today I’m talking to the amazing Amy Rigby, who was recommended by a listener and I am just delighted that I got to talk to her. She talks about singer-songwriting, which is something I’m always interested in, and memoir, which of course you know is my passion, and what it’s like to tend bar in a small community while being an artist, and I just thought that our talk was incredibly inspiring to me and I hope that you find it the same way. Little bit about what’s going on around here, I am back in revision on a project, working on that in my happy place, should finish that up tomorrow if I’m lucky. I am also getting ready to leave on vacation, so the podcast will be on vacation for two weeks. It will not be around for the next two Fridays because I’m going to be at the grand Canyon, Antelope Canyon, Zion, Bryce, and Las Vegas. Don’t worry, I have a lot of dogs in my house, this is true, and a big burly house sitter, who is taking care of the house, so please don’t come break into my house while I’m gone. And I hope that you miss me just a little bit, but I honestly do hope that you don’t even notice that there is an interruption in How Do You Write service because I can’t wait to come back and start it up. For some reason, I’ve got a lot of episodes in the bank. Sometimes I’m scrambling the day before, “Well, I should probably get a guest”, and sometimes I’ve got six or seven episodes in the can, and I have that right now, so that’s nice.

[02:01] I already know who’s coming up to talk to you when I come back and you’re going to enjoy those interviews too. So that’s on my plate right now, it’s cleaning stuff up so that I can go to this vacation with a clear plate. I am teaching just a little bit while I’m gone. I’m not coaching, not teaching at Stanford, I’ve got an extra week off there, so it’s going to be really enjoyable. We are planning on ending our trip in Vegas where, since I don’t drink, I am going to order all the expensive virgin piña coladas and drink them next to the pool, and I cannot wait. I’m going to bring so many books and probably come home with even more books. And I would also like to thank new patron subscriber, Patrick Martinez. Thank you so much, Patrick, for pledging and listening.

[02:53] I have been having a really wonderful, extremely crazy, awesome time talking to people, because of this show, who reach out to me for coaching requests, which you can always look at at http://rachaelherron.com/coach. I do a lot of one-offs. I’m actually not even trying to sell myself right here, I am trying to express to you how much joy I get out of this. Most people I talk to, I talk to maybe one to three times in just these one-offs, where they come to me and they say, “Rachael, I can’t”, and I say, “Oh my God, yes you can”, and “This is amazing because of this”, and “Why don’t you try that?”, and then they go away and do it and they tell me how much it helped to have somebody tell them that they could do it. So without the benefit of a phone call, one on one, with you right now, let me just talk to you for a second.

[03:44] You can do this. You’re listening to this podcast because you want to write. If you don’t want to write, I don’t know why you’re listening to this, because that’s what we talk about around here. If you want to write, you can, and you will, and you do. I was just talking to a class about this today, in fact. We try to learn how to write books. We try to write books, we try to write essays, articles, whatever it is that you are passionate about writing, but most of what we try to do is set up our lives so that we understand how our unique writing processes work. Every single one of our processes are different and that’s why I do this show. I like to talk to people about their processes. I will never understand my process fully as long as I live, and I love that because it’s constantly changing. And mine is very different from what yours is, and yours is very different from the next person, and that’s our full time job.

[04:44] Our full time goal as a writer, for the rest of our lives, is to figure out how we become the person who, when you get distracted away from your writing, you notice that and guide yourself back to the writing. It is exactly the same with meditation. If you’re meditating and you’re thinking about an object and you’re trying to still your mind, you will get distracted because that’s part of meditation. The magic of meditation is not in the moment where your brain is still and quiet, because that barely ever happens. The magic of meditation is when you notice you’ve become distracted and bring it back to centering your mind on whatever it is that you’re thinking about. Writing is exactly the same thing. We wander away, we don’t write for a day, or a few days, or a week, or a few years, we notice that and we bring ourselves back without judgment, without self-recrimination, and we write again.

[05:41] It’s exactly the same thing. It feels exactly the same way in our heads. We try to welcome ourselves back to the page, and that is something that is really hard for a person like me, who likes to beat myself up at every opportunity. I’m really trying hard not to do that now. When I notice that I’m not doing what I want myself to do, I bring myself back to what it is that I’m doing, gently, calmly, and it’s pretty great. So I hope that, if you’re listening to this, don’t beat yourself up, do a little writing, get some of your words and they will make you feel better, even if they’re crap, and I do hope they’re crap. First drafts are always terrible beasts and they should be the ugliest thing you’ve ever seen. You can fix them later. For now, your job is just catching some terrible, terrible, ugly words. Lower your expectations as low as you can, and then lower some more, and then do some writing. That’s how books get written.

[06:37] I feel like I had something else to share with you, but I don’t think I do, so please enjoy this interview with Amy Rigby. I am going to go back to the very fun process of trying to figure out where to go on retreat next year. I usually go to Venice in spring and I’m feeling a little bit Veniced out. Do not tell Venice, she’ll be mad at me. I’m thinking about Barcelona. If you get this in a timely manner, you can always email me to put in your vote of where I’m going, if you’d like to go on an international writing retreat next year, because they are one of my most joyful things that I do all year, I really love that. Speaking of joyful, I know what I wanted to tell you. I wanted to tell you about Ed Giordano, who I mentioned on The Writer’s Well.

[07:24] He is my new writing assistant and he’s incredible, and he’s hireable. Basically, I’ve been going out to brunch with him for about three years or so and every brunch that I go to, he tells me what I should be doing, and then I don’t do it because I don’t have time. He understands the book business, he understands uploading and downloading and sideloading, and multiple streams of income, and how to make audiobooks, and how to make large print, and how to do all of this stuff that I can’t stand doing, so he’s helping me with it because he was laid off from his job and he might try to make a go of this whole author-helping business. He’s phenomenal, he’s a very fast-thinking, talking millennial and he’s great. So if you want to reach out to him, you can reach him at edwardgiordano@gmail.com, and I told him that I would tell you about him. Edward spelled normally, Giordano is G-I-O-R-D-A-N-O at gmail.com, and I’ll try to remember to put that in the show notes and I bet if I forget, Ed will tell me to go put them up there. The only problem with having an amazing assistant is that he keeps creating more work for me, as he says, “I need this and I need this and I need this”, in order to get these things done, that I’ve been putting off for so long. He’s also local and he’s just darling, and so there’s my Ed plug. Now, please enjoy the show with Amy, I know that you will. Please get some writing done and then tell me all about it. We’ll talk soon.

Rachael: [08:53] This episode is brought to you by my book, Fast-Draft Your Memoir: Write Your Life Story in 45 Hours, which is by the way, totally doable and I tell you how. It’s the same class I teach in the continuing studies program at Stanford each year, and I’ll let you in on a secret. Even if you have no interest in writing a memoir yet, the book has everything I’ve ever learned about the process of writing, and of revision, and of story structure, and of just doing this thing that’s so hard and yet all we want to do. Pick it up today.

Rachael: [09:26] All right. Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, Amy Rigby. Hi Amy.

Amy:  [09:31] Hi.

Rachael: [09:32] I am so pleased to have you here. A reader or listener of mine, named Holly, told me about you and she’s one of your biggest fans, as I was saying off air. I’m sure you have a lot of those, but I’m so grateful that she turned me onto you because I have now gone and investigated you and I’m reading your blog. Let me give you a little bit of introduction and then I want to talk all things writing with you.

Amy:  [09:55] Great, thanks.

Rachael: [09:55] Amy Rigby is a songwriter, musician, and performer. Her most recent album, The Old Guys, was voted one of the top 100 albums of 2018, in the Pazz & Jop – is that how you say it? – US music critics poll.

Amy:  [10:08] Like that, yeah.

Rachael: [10:10] I love it. That’s funny. Her memoir, Girl To City, will be published October 8th, so right around when this podcast comes out. She plays her songs all over the world and writes online at http://diaryofamyrigby.wordpress.com. She lives with her husband and, sometimes, duet partner, Wreckless Eric, in New York’s Hudson Valley. When she isn’t touring, she pours beer and sells books at The Spotty Dog, in Hudson. Welcomes so much. I’ve already skimmed through and got really deep into your memoir, in the small amount of time that I’ve had it. I’m so compelled by your voice and I went pretty far into your old back catalog, on your blog. I find that your voice is so immediate and so narrative, and when I was listening to your music, your music is narrative too. Have you always been driven to tell stories? Tell us a little bit about that before we get into process.

Amy:  [11:09] I think so, because what got me into songwriting first was reading short stories and listening to country music. I’d been a big punk fan and a big rock music fan, but I think in the early eighties I started getting into old country and listening to the songs of like, Loretta Lynn and George Jones and Skeeter Davis. I loved the stories that they told about the real life, you know, “Take this job and shove it” kind of, just like, people going to work, people taking care of their kids, and it sort of dovetailed with them. That early eighties, there was this sort of explosion of short stories, at that time. You’re too young to remember this, you probably weren’t even born yet–

Rachael: [12:09] Oh, yes. I’m a seventies, early seventies baby.

Amy:  [12:14] –but yeah, there was like, Bobby Ann Mason, Raymond Carver. That’s the first time anyone heard of Raymond Carver, and these stories were just like– They were like songs, they were just little encapsulations of real life. No epic resolutions, they were like a little window into people’s day to day, and that really started me writing songs and I really wanted to do that. And so that’s what I’ve tried to do all along using, as my subject matter, myself because that’s what I knew and that’s what kind of gave me my topics.

Rachael: [13:00] I am passionate about memoir and creative nonfiction, and your voice is just so compelling. Yeah, I encourage everybody to check you out. Let’s talk a little bit about your process and how it differs. I think you’re the second songwriter I’ve had on here. Do you know Jeffrey Foucault, or Foucault, do you pronounce it?

Amy: [13:20] Yeah.

Rachael: [13:20] Yeah, he was on here too, and I’m so fascinated by songwriting, and it’s something that I want to try to learn how to do someday.

Amy: [13:31] Well, you should because we’re all starting to try to write books.

Rachael: [13:37] I’ve written a few songs and they were absolutely terrible, but you know, that’s how we all start with any kind of writing. What is your writing process look like? Kind of compare song writing to a longer form of writing.

Amy:  [13:51] Okay. Well, since this is my first book, and it was hugely harder than I ever could have imagined anything could be. Writing songs is wonderful because it’s like a three minute arc, you get in, you get out, you tell your story, and also you have a lot of help because, I’ve got melody, I’ve got rhythm, I’ve got harmony, I’ve got the harmony of the melody against the chords that I choose to play. I’ve got the whole history of popular music as references and little– You can say so much with all these things. That’s why lots of songs just have– Even wordless syllables can work because you’re telling a story. If you’re playing a minor chord, then it’s going to feel sad or scary. If you play a major chord, it’s going to feel happy, triumphant, all these things. So writing songs is just kind of– I mean, I just do it really fast, I get an idea, kind of a theme or something that’s bugging me or some conversation I overhear, and I just grab a line from that, and some kind of melody just starts percolating, and then I go to get a chorus that kind of somehow opens it up and tells me what the song’s really about. And then, if I’m really invested, I’ll even write a bridge in there that’s kind of more like a reflective moment.

Rachael: [15:38] You make it sound so easy, but I know it isn’t.

Amy:  [15:41] I mean, I guess it happens fast like that for me, but then writing without all that help, without my guitar and being able to play a little riff or some chords, is a lot more like the words have to do all the work, and so it’s a lot harder. It is. We play music and it is like child’s play.

Rachael: [16:13] Oh my Gosh, you’re right. We don’t say that we play writing.

Amy:  [16:15] No, absolutely not.

Rachael: [16:17] That would explain a lot. So what did your process look like for writing this particular book?

Amy:  [16:22] Well, I kind of snuck up on it by– I wanted to write a memoir, and a friend who worked for an agent, years ago, said like, “Oh, you really should write about kind of–“. My first album was about being a mom, and kind of the breakup of a marriage, and kind of, “Write a book that’s based on that”. Well, I’ve first kind of had to learn how to write. And so I started writing a blog. I’ve started even before they called it a blog, I started–

Rachael: [16:58] I saw that. It was in the nineties, right?

Amy:  [17:00] Yeah. And I just called it my online diary, and just wrote about my experiences on the road, you know, touring, playing music, and then stuck in stuff about my temp jobs and my daughter, and yeah, just really mundane real-life details. I love reading that stuff in other people’s blog. I loved when everybody started writing about their– I could read that Pete Thompson, sorry, Pete Townsend had– He was having some kind of itch, he had some kind of, I don’t know, he’d gotten poison ivy or something, and I was like, “I can’t believe I’m reading that Pete Townsend put on a band-aid or something”, and this is someone who was– He was just this mythic figure to me, from the world of rock music, and to just hear that he had this day to day thing, I love that about blogs. So I just was kind of writing a little tour diary, then I ended up moving to rural France and that was– There was no one to talk to. I was learning to speak French, all of our neighbors were these older French people, and I felt very– There was a field of cows across the street from my window and that was it, and I just felt very isolated after living in New York City, in Nashville, living among my musical peers and just being able to hang out with people that live the same type of creative life that I do. And there were many at the time, many expat blogs, there just were hundreds of people just kind of trying to make sense of being in a different place. Then, at the time, there were also a lot of mom blogs, but I had– my daughter had gone off to college, so I would have loved those when she was little, but it didn’t exist yet, so she was off on doing her thing. So I didn’t really feel any– In fact, I was kind of like, “I’m done, I’m done with worrying about child care and lunches, and I don’t have to think about that anymore”. So that just got me writing, and back then, if you blogged, you felt like you should do it a couple times a week at least.

Rachael: [19:32] 2002 is when I started my knitting blog, and we had the same kind of community and you did feel like you had to commit to blogging and also commenting on your friends’ blogs, and–

Amy:  [19:47] It was great. It was a great way to just kind of feel connected to something. And it got me just getting more of a writing practice beyond– what really got me focused on writing, not music. Music was the artist’s way, back in the eighties, nineties. It was the nineties. That book was huge for me and got me doing those morning pages, which, you know, it’s never gone away. I have to write when I get up in the morning and I don’t stick to, you know, I’m not like that three page, I don’t do that religiously, but I just don’t feel like I’m really fully functioning unless I do that, which is– I know one of your questions was like, “What’s one of the biggest challenges?”, and it is when I’m on tour.

Rachael: [20:44] Let’s talk about that, your biggest challenge about writing.

Amy:  [20:47] Yeah. Having a routine, in some way, is so great, and being on tour, the type of touring I do, which can be, you know, not exactly rugged. I mean I’m not sleeping on people’s floors anymore. I left that behind thankfully, in my forties maybe. But it’s just how there’s no routine sometimes, you know, I don’t go to bed till two or three in the morning. Sometimes I have to get up and drive so early that I don’t really have time to write. Sometimes. Sometimes my husband and I play together and he’s sleeping in the room, and I need to go down to the Holiday Inn express buffet, but there’s a TV blaring, all these things. And I think that’s part of the reason why it took me so long to write a book, because when I was on tour, it just felt– and those would be sections of four weeks or something, where I could not get that mental space to be, you know, to get anything going, but when I come home I just jump right back in, and just, that’s one of the delights of being back home, is just being able to get up in the morning at a kind of nice early time, and have my time and space to do some writing.

Rachael: [22:14] I am such a routine lover. I’m one of those– My wife always says that I set up routine wherever I go. By the second day in the city, I have my favorite coffee shop already. I know the way I like to walk, it makes me feel safe somehow. But yeah, I also– I just can’t work when I’m traveling. Period. I finally learned that about myself.

Amy:  [22:33] It’s hard. It is so hard.

Rachael: [22:35] I’ve given up beating myself up about it. So you’ve talked about challenge. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing? Anything, songwriting book writing.

Amy:  [22:43] I guess always just that feeling that I said something in a song or in a story or blog, something that I couldn’t quite get to without writing it. I had a feeling, it was almost like a nagging, like Pete Townsend’s itch, and something that just kind of there, you know, that I want to express and it’s not till I’m actually writing, putting one word after another, that it comes out, and I just love that about writing. It was the same with songwriting and probably less so, because I’ve written so many songs, I kind of eel more compelled now to write just non-songwriting kind of writing, just because I had done– Not to say I don’t still need to get something to sing, but to just write something, just words on a page, that feeling that I captured what I was going through and that somehow, if somebody else reads it, they will just feel the same thing that I was feeling, I just like that connection.

Rachael: [24:07] Just on the top of your blog, the most recent one when we’re recording this, on September 10th, is the story about the tent that you thought your neighbor stole, and– the hammock, sorry, a hammock, but I just love the way you wrote it. Your writing is beautiful and I was there with you and I felt all those emotions, and I just really feel like you have such a gift for this. Can you share a craft tip which might help us at all?

Amy:  [24:33] I think the hard thing, for me, writing my book, I found that I like writing scenes, I like writing dialogues, I like remembering what happened, but I don’t like saying how something made me feel or– and that feels like such an important part of sharing what happened to you. It’s like that thing where like, “Why are you telling me this?”. So I find that kind of sneaking up– I guess I sneak up on a lot of things, I just trick myself into everything. But writing, really getting into the scene kind of helps me be able to– Then kind of how I was feeling sort of pops out without having to define it. I can kind of find my way there. I don’t know if this is– I don’t think I’m really being concrete enough, but to just– Even if I just want to write a blog and I don’t know what I want to write, I just just kind of think of something that happened to me at the supermarket, or get out and take a walk and just start imagining something going on at the neighbor’s house and just start to try to write what– just little details of that.

[26:10] Yeah, find the details, basically, and those little things that seem so specific to that moment, somehow they open up something that’s bigger. That is someone like, way on the other side of the country, who’s got a palm tree instead of a pine tree, and they don’t have a snowblower and a snow shovel because it never– but something about the act of shoveling that snow or feeling. I’ve found that with songs, that the more specific I was about my own story that I wanted to tell, the details, the more someone else could project their own details on there. I have this song called Summer of My Wasted Youth, and it’s all about being an art student in New York City in the early eighties, and listening to country music, and just what I was into then, but something about that song and those details– Like people say, “Oh, I had those, I had that year in Boston or in Atlanta, or…”, and I love that.

Rachael: [27:36] I do love that. And I love that, especially in any kind of memoir, including songwriting, is the more specific we are, the more universal the story becomes, and I think that’s beautiful. And you’re talking about it the same way that you earlier talked about writing a song, how it kind of opens up to you and leads you, and if you’re inspired, you might write a bridge, and those details are what is landing this to you.

Amy:  [27:59] Yeah, very much.

Rachael: [28:01] What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?

Amy:  [28:07] I was thinking about that and it’s probably — At the end of my bio, you said that I pour beer and sell books at The Spotty Dog, in Hudson. I never had that kind of job before, in all my years of being an artist, being a musician, having to scrape by and stuff. I did a lot of temp work, a lot of office jobs, so I was never that person with a waitress job in New York City. I didn’t work in the service industry, but since I’ve been in this part of the world I’ve had this job in a bookstore, that also happens to serve beer. And so it really is like a wonderful place, and I love being a bartender. It’s an easy bartending job, but I don’t have to– We just serve beer and wine, I don’t have to mix drinks and throw out bar chatter there, because it’s a bookstore too. But I love just kind of having to interact with the public in a way that doesn’t involve me being on stage, which I’ve done for 30 some years. So I get to just be serving other people and it’s about them, not about me. And I love to hear their stories, I just love the experiences that I have there. I could write a whole other book based on just the kooky, wonderful people who come in, and just the sort of mix of books which I love, and bar chatter, and just being also at the center of a small community, and all the characters that come and go, and then the city people from New York who come up and come through and go, “Five dollars for a beer? How is this even possible?”. It really is like being in an episode of Cheers, and so I never thought that I could enjoy this other job.

Rachael: [30:14] I think that sounds idyllic and wonderful. Oh, I think we froze–

Rachael: [30:24] Oh, sorry, Skype seems to be freezing up just a little bit for us, but I think you’re back though.

Amy:  [30:33] Anyway, so that’s been nice. That’s been nice. And I realized, when I was writing my memoir too, that those moments of those day jobs that I had to do, that I suffered through and, while I was there I would be thinking, “When I don’t have to do this anymore, my real life as an artist will begin”. Looking back over that, I realize those were some of the richest moments of my life. Those gave me so much to write about, so much that fed into my art, and I think that if I could tell anybody anything about writing or doing, trying to do something creative, like, “Don’t feel bad about these other things you have to do to support yourself, they can be a rich source for you”.

Rachael: [31:30] I so agree with you. Anything that we’re in today is part of that art. That’s what we’re using and transforming into art. I love that. We are running out of time, but I would like you to tell us where we can find you and tell us a little bit about the book, please.

Amy:  [31:46] Okay. Well, this book, I made the story kind of– I zeroed in on my time in New York City. I went there in 1976, from Pittsburgh, as an art student, and trying to do the two things, in New York of the 20th century, so it was a struggle, but it was such an incredible time in the city that I didn’t realize until I left it all behind, and– I know I’m not doing a very good– I’m still so in the book, just trying to– So it’s got a lot about my musical life, and– I love reading music memoir autobiographies of my favorite musicians and people I’ve never heard of.

[33:02] The part I always like the best is the first third, where they’re struggling and trying to figure it out, and they’re cobbling together a career out of just like, crappy gigs and strange people that they need, who end up being the people who teach them what they need to know, and that’s pretty much my whole book.

Rachael: [33:25] Good. That’s also my favorite part.

Amy: [33:29] The thing that always disappoints me is when, like, Keith Richards starts telling me like, “And here’s my dogs and I have these three houses”, or when someone starts saying, “And then I decided to be on Broadway, because I always really wanted to act”, and that’s fine, but when it just turns into a CV of their later accomplishments and I’m like, “Yeah, but I want to go back to where we were scrabbling and you were telling me about–

Rachael: [34:03] Living in a squat, and…

Amy:  [34:03] My whole book is like cars breaking down.

Rachael: [34:07] And it is called Girl To City, by Amy Rigby, and it will be out by the time this airs probably. Where can people find you online?

Amy:  [34:17] I’m at http://amyrigby.com, and I’ll also be all over the country. I’ll be doing a lot of dates, a lot of book tour dates, which will be, for me, like a combination of reading stories from the book and playing songs that relate to the stories in the book.

Rachael: [34:35] Are you coming to the Bay Area, San Francisco?

Amy: [34:38] I am. I’m coming to Starline Social Club, in Oakland–

Rachael: [34:42] I’m in Oakland.

Amy:  [34:42] –on Thursday, November 7th.

Rachael: [34:44] Thursday, November 7th, I’m going to look at my– Yeah, I live in Oakland. I’m looking at my calendar really briefly here. I’m free, I’m going to be there. I’ll meet you then. Thank you so much for this, Amy. What a joy. Thanks to Holly for introducing us and–

Amy:  [35:02] Yes. I don’t know where she lives, but maybe she’s in Oakland too.

Rachael: [35:08] That would be rad. That would be wonderful. Thank you Amy so much, and happy writing to you.

Amy:  [35:17] Thank you.

Rachael: [35:17] Thank you. Bye-bye.

Rachael: [35:20] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of How Do You Write. You can reach me on Twitter, Rachael Herron, or at my website, http://rachaelherron.com, You can also support me on Patreon, and get essays on living your creative life, for as little as a buck an essay, at http://www.patreon.com/rachael, spelled R-A-C-H-A-E-L. And do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers at http://rachaelherron.com/write. Now, go to your desk and create your own process, and get to writing my friends.

Jennifer Louden is a personal growth pioneer who helped launch the concept of self-care with her first best-selling book The Woman’s Comfort Book. Since then, she’s written six additional books on well-being and whole living, with a million copies of her books in print in nine languages. Jennifer has spoken around the U.S., Canada, and Europe, and has written a national magazine column for Martha Stewart magazine. Plus, she’s been profiled or quoted in dozens of major magazines, two of Brené Brown’s books Daring Greatly and Dare to Lead, appeared on hundreds of TV, radio shows and podcasts, and even on Oprah.

Jennifer has been teaching women’s writing and self-care retreats since 1992 and creating vibrant online communities and innovative learning experiences since 2000. She married the love of her life at 50 and is profoundly proud to be mom to Lillian and bonus mom to Aidan.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers.

TRANSCRIPT

HDYW146

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome do how to you right? I’m your host Rachael Herron on this podcast. I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:00:16] Well, hello writers. Welcome to episode number 146 of how do you write?

I’m Rachael Herron and I’m thrilled that you’re here with me today today. We are talking to the Magnificent Jen Loudon; Jen Loudon, if you follow Joanna Penn’s podcast the Creative Penn she was just on it. I’ve been a fan of Jen for a long time now and I really believe that she’s one of the most inspiring speakers in the field of creativity and self care so stick around for that. She’s so lovely.

In personal update around here. You can hear that I’m sick for some reason since I left my day job. I think I was always working with moms of small children, and I got a lot of. You know secondhand cooties that way and managed to keep my immune system high and I never got colds. And since I’ve gone full time three and a half years ago.

I really get more cold than I ever used to. So this one is a wicked wicked summer. I guess early fall cold that’s been going around the Bay Area and I’ve got it so I will not subject you to the sound of my voice for as long as I normally do, but all is going well around here. I am working hard on something I cannot talk about.

That is good hate to do that. So I won’t talk about that anymore. I wanted to thank new patrons and returning Patron Lefty Albay Lefty. Love you. Thank you so so so much means the world and Mel Climbo. Oh Mel, you’re familiar to me too. So, I love to see old patrons who maybe weren’t around for a while come back and then go and I always mean to say this around my Patreon and it’s true. I love your support. It means the difference between me being here able to do this and having to get a part-time job. That’s how important patreon is to me. However, when people sign in to change and they can no longer help support me there is literally zero percent of me that minds when they go away at all, zero percent, I’m happy because I can only it’s just generosity. All I get to do is be grateful for it and I am so oh goodness. No, I will mention that. It’s been a terribly busy week around here. I think since the last time I talked to my cat has gone into kidney failure and we’ve speaking the money drop several thousand dollars on him.

He’s doing really well. So in a way that the vet doesn’t really. And it’s great and we’ve been spending a lot of time cuddling today and yesterday since we’re both kind of on the couch. So that’s been great to be able to just be around him and spend time around this wonderful little cat named Willie who is a badass and my little companion.

So that has been good. Otherwise, let’s just jump into the show with Jen. I will have a longer update for you next week when I know that I will feel better. Enjoy the show with Jen and happy writing to you. I really love it. When you reach out and tell me how you’re doing. Also in all of the show notes. There is always a place to join my slack channel for writers called Onward Writer. Please go over and click that link to join the Slack channel. There’s some good conversations happening over there. It’s a good place to look for beta readers. It’s a good place to talk about your writing. I would love to have you, so join that please it’s always free and it’s always fun. So have you writing we’ll talk to you soon. Bye.

Hey, you’re a writer. Did you know that I send out a free weekly email of writing encouragement go sign up for it RachaelHerron.com, right and you’ll also get my stop stalling and write PDF with helpful tips. You can use today to get some of your own writing done.

Okay now on to the interview, Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome onto the show Jennifer Loudon. Hello, Jennifer. 

Jen Louden: [00:04:13] It was my pleasure to be here on this warm afternoon will spend a little time getting together to have let’s go. 

Rachael Herron: [00:04:19] Let’s do it. It’ll bring out our emotions. Let me give you a little bit of a bio here before we jump into it Jennifer Loudon is a personal growth Pioneer who helped launch the concept of self-care with her first best-selling book the woman’s comfort book since then she’s written six additional books on well-being and whole living with a million copies. Books in print in nine languages Jennifer has spoken around the US Canada and Europe and has written a national magazine column for Martha Stewart magazine. Plus she’s been profiled or quoted in dozens of major magazines to a burn a Brown’s books daring greatly and dare to lead has appeared on TV radio shows podcasts and even on Oprah

She’s been teaching women’s writing and self-care Retreat since 1982 and creating vibrant online communities and Innovative learning experiences in 2000. She married the love of her life at 50 and is profoundly proud to be mom to Lillian and bonus mom to Aidan. Welcome. 

I literally cannot remember where I found you or where I got onto your e-mail newsletter list, but it’s so inspiring to me and I actually took one of your all day virtual retreats. Just because I wanted to see what happened and it was beautiful. You created such a beautiful warm environment and I so thoroughly enjoyed being there 

Jen Louden: [00:05:38] Oh, that’s great!

Rachael Herron: [00:05:39] That is what gave me the the bravery to approach you and ask you to be on the show because I really just admire what you’re doing, but this show is about process

Jen Louden: [00:05:49] It’s all about process earlier process.

Rachael Herron: [00:05:52] Knowing your process and finding it out uncovering it which takes years and years and years and is always changing. I think it just did so I would like to know about your writing process is now. What it looks like and maybe what it was when you first started what has changed?

Jen Louden: [00:06:06] Oh, well, I think the thing that has changed. The biggest most important thing is that I have a much more realistic process, and I know how to work with my mind. A million times better. So when I first started writing I was I mean, I started writing in high school. I wrote in college. I pursued screenwriting after college studying writing in college and I was a tortured writer

I believed all the myths about writing should just come if you didn’t write easily and naturally you aren’t really a writer. It was my greatest fear that I wasn’t really a writer that. You know that you should just have to sit down without any kind of pre-thinking or planning and just pound it out and those kind of thoughts and beliefs.

I should say that really really got me stuck.

Rachael Herron: [00:07:02] Where did we get those? 

Jen Louden: [00:07:05] Well, I mean I thought about that a lot because in addition to the virtual Retreats, I’ve been leading in person writing Retreats and I work with writers one-on-one and in addition to everything else. And I think it’s because of literacy being such a big deal because we have to remember that within our lifetime like my extended family there were people there who barely graduated sixth grade but literacy was power.

And then if we go back just a few Generations more owning a book going to school all of those things weren’t guaranteed and they were often for the elite and then go back a few Generations more. They certainly were for the elite reading and right, you know, and then if we add race and being a woman into that.

So I think some of that is rooted in some of those cultural stories about us knowing it. I also think that writing has a Mystique being a writer has a Mystique around it, which is hysterical  to me. I mean, I’m sorry. Have you ever watched somebody write? It’s about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Rachael Herron: [00:07:57] We’re in our yoga pants weird makeup happening. Yeah, there’s just yeah. 

Jen Louden: [00:08:01] In this little room, maybe I dance to some music. So for some reason there’s a lot of baggage and one of the things that I’ll do in my longer Retreats a sort of unpack that we do an exercise around it and start for people to start to look at.

What is the baggage that I carry around this label of writer or painter or artist or creative you name it and what is it about this that I need to pay attention to is part of my process because those stories beliefs cultural. Imprints are part of our self-concept and when our self-concept is threatened, then we go into fight or flight or freeze and all without our awareness. 

Rachael Herron: [00:08:41]  Speaking of that could you go into a little bit about the emotional immune system that you wrote about this week. That was fascinating to me. And I think it’s I think it’s linked. 

Jen Louden: [00:08:51] So an emotional means this term is a term I came up with but it’s based on the lack of resettle a he and Bob Keegan at Harvard and a whole system that they have around

Looking at what they just call your ability. They just caught your immune system and that the idea is that we are constructed in a way through our nervous system through our brain to stay defended and this is when the most brilliant ideas that I learned from them. We’re not afraid of change their whole thing is change management.

We’re not afraid. We’re not self-sabotaging. We’re not undisciplined. Fun, we don’t have okay, we may have bad habits. But the reason why we have bad habits is because our emotional immune system our brain our nervous system our self-concept all of these different layers are all about keeping us defended because it’s some level in our little bodies and brains.

We know that we could die any minute and we don’t want to, we know that a meteor could drop right now on us and you know that the giant supervolcano under Yellowstone could explode we know that we could have cancer right now and not even know it. This is the fact that we like to get away from it so we can get on with our business.

So when we do anything that is outside of what is we could kind of say safe, kind of comfortable but really the word they use that I love these defend it. We feel defended. I feel defended what I’m checking email. I know how to do that. I know how to answer my clients. I know how to answer my assistant.

I know how to respond. I don’t know how to respond. If I look at my document that I’m writing on and have not done any thinking or planning and expect myself to go in and start writing a new scene in a novel or. You know and so then I go back to what’s defended. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:32] which is I think it email and doing all that those busy work tasks

Jen Louden: [00:10:35] Right? I love that where I love eating crunchy snacks.  Yeah, it’s great. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:41] I like Netflix. 

Jen Louden: [00:10:42] Yeah it’s great.

Rachael Herron: [00:10:43] I’m very good at Netflix. I’m pretty much an expert at Netflix.

Jen Louden: [00:10:45] I’m amazed with how much stress eating I’ve been doing in the end the last week. I finished my book. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:48] Congratulations. 

Jen Louden: [00:10:51] Yeah. I have one more pass at it, but and I haven’t had that behavior a long time oh my God pickles and crackers and cake and oh my my. Your pants are getting happy and like okay. I know let’s see how we can you know, I had to start trying to use my own tools. 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:05] Yeah, there’s something I thought about like the blood glucose the glucose of the brain dropping when you’re thinking that hard and your brain is screaming it’s an emergency. Give me a lollipop but what I love about emotionally means system. It just hit home so much that so much that I forwarded your message out to my wife and I just wanted to share this with you. She wrote that she wrote back. I have emotional allergies. I need some emotional Claritin and maybe an emotional Neti Pot.

Jen Louden: [00:11:32] Oh my God. I love it that’s brilliant! Oh my God.

Rachael Herron: [00:11:35] I wanted to share that with you.

Jen Louden: [00:11:35] that is so great 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:36] But what is your writing process now? Do you wake up and roll over to the computer or do you get there around noon or what? What does that look like? 

Jen Louden: [00:11:43] No, I’m definitely a morning writer I taught myself to be morning writer when my daughter was born.

She’s 25 now and I was always really has to be just perfect and you know, like oh, it’s tell you that it was like I have. Two hours to write while she like I would nurse her. I would run it on the hill to my parents. They were they live near us for a while to help at the early stages. The first few months, I would drop her off.

I would run back up the hill in the car, I would write, write, write. My milk would come in. I would pump while I was eating lunch with the other hand. I would write write write write my milk will come in and I know where to have to go down the hill to get her and she would be waking up from her nap that taught me I could write anywhere anytime.

Well it’s and I finished the book. I was a pregnant woman’s comfort book. I finished that book. Sleep deprived I’m not even knowing I had terrible postpartum depression because I yeah, I was writing about it.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:33] How interesting that you were writing a comfort book. 

Jen Louden: [00:12:36] I was writing comfort book. I was writing about postpartum depression and it wasn’t occurring to me because the way it showed up for me was anxiety and that research wasn’t well-developed then now we know so much more about it. Thank God because it’s so common is so awful. So I think we’re waiting for us is now when I’m in the drafting stage is very different than the editing stage for me. I am not happy drafter.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:58] I am not either. 

Jen Louden: [00:12:59] Yeah, you don’t like these people are like, are you ready, practice. And I feel looks like really yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:13:05] I’m all about revision.

Jen Louden: [00:13:07] Yeah, I’m all about revision. Revision really makes me happy and joyful. So drafting means I think the most important things for me are to know what I’m going to write the next day and is what I’m always telling my writers that I work with. What am I actually going to work on the next day and I has to be clear enough to me

It doesn’t make sense to anybody else that. That I’m ready to go and then I have it up on my big computer here. I have freedom internet blocking software program so that there’s nothing here that can drag me away. And then my habit when I’m drafting is to I will check my email on my desktop of my laptop, which is downstairs in the kitchen, but I don’t allow myself to have coffee until like I’m ready to come here and I’m not going to do very much about coffee in the morning. Genius hack. Yeah, I used to make myself stand up and then I was like, no no just no coffee. And when I’m really in a groove then I will get up I’ll you know do the water and put on, you know, clothes all that, but I’m close and then I’ll go meditate. Then I’ll check email and see if there’s any emergencies with my team and then I make my latte and that’s the trigger to come upstairs where there’s no way out. Right and whenever I’m going to start is right here, so that kind of discipline. I really need in drafting because I’ll do anything I can to wiggle out when I’m editing I don’t need freedom. I don’t need a ritual. I don’t need to have it. I could do half an hour worth of busy work or responding to things click off a few things be almost done with my latte and then be. Great, I get to edit. I mean it’s pleasurable for me. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:47] That’s exactly the same way I am. And I like hearing other people say that. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing?

Jen Louden: [00:14:57] Oh. I have learning disability. So my biggest challenge is I would call it a lot of different things but we might call it structure organization flow of ideas. So give you an idea what this book that comes out in May, ‘Why Bother?’ When working on different subtitles discover the desire for what’s next.

I think that’s a subtitle we’re going it might be discovered your desire for what’s next. We haven’t quite decided yet. We’re waiting for the book reps to come back and say what they vote for so in that. I use scrivener. I’m a big Scrivener fan and I did lots. I almost wrote it like little short essays that were whooped by these by these phases or stages of this process that I came up with the how you go from what I call the dark side or the Blah side either the left or lethargic side to why bother to that why bother?

What did indeed do I bother about and what do I want to bother? What don’t I want to bother about him really finding that desire to animate yourself again into what’s next. And so but when I actually gave it to Beta readers after the second draft, four different beta readers and two came back and we’re basically like it’s not working for me this way and one of them was very much in our own why bother process which I didn’t know and she’s like, I need to feel more held I need to feel more like in this is happens in this.

So that was a challenge for me writing it in the little essays really work for my kind of brain and putting it together in a flow was it was really a lot more difficult, but I got there I got that day. I almost did too much of it and I took some of it out on this draft. And we’re going to make it Web Extras for people because I it’s a self-help book, but it’s very much a memoir as well.

Rachael Herron: [00:16:43] I cannot wait to read it. By the way.

Jen Louden: [00:16:45] I have a little vulnerability hangover. I was so finishing includes most about two or three days ago and I was really like I’ve been stress eating as I said pretty unusual for me, like just grumpy having a cocktail almost every night also and unusual I don’t usually drink during the week.

And I just hit me like I ain’t talked about slow on the uptake. There’s a shit ton of me in this book and I talked about really big dark stuff and. I think it just hit the people. I know I don’t people like don’t know fine. I don’t care what you know about me but my friends and my neighbors and a little bit of my family that’s left. I’m like, oh shit what have I done. 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:31] Isn’t it good that you kept it from yourself until that point good job.

Jen Louden: [00:17:35] We did then but here’s the hysterical thing. I spent four years and 500 pages writing a lot of this as a memoir. That didn’t work. And I didn’t have that feeling for four years nor in the last seven months where I found this whole new structure and then pulled things out that fit that structure. So you talked about being clueless to yourself. Yes!

Rachael Herron: [00:17:55] I love that. There’s always surprises to find out about ourselves.

Jen Louden: [00:17:58] We have no idea what we do almost everything we do is unconscious, right? And I think that’s delicious. 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:05] What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing?

Jen Louden: [00:18:08] You know, I was really impressed as I was writing this doing this for third fourth draft for threw up I guess whatever I’ve lost track but with my editors comments, and I’m really impressed by my scenes. And you know, I’ve had a long I have a fiction background and but I’ve yet to successfully write a novel and I’m like, I wonder if you could really do it just like there’s these but then I thought these scenes took me years to write. We would have to do it a little more quickly, but maybe if we were writing about ourselves that would be easier. So I was really impressed by that that was joyful for me to read and I think it was joyful for me to write I think I do love that. Sensory building out a word finding the right details that really reveal action reveal character.

I love it when I come up with a Zinger, you know, like life never gives up on you, you give up on life. I’m like, yes! Yes, yes tweet that! 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:10] Which you should yeah exactly.  

Jen Louden: [00:19:15] Yeah, and again I love revising. I love how you know, what was so cool because I haven’t finished a book in so many years so many books flop on me or that I flopped on them, but to leave scrivener and put it in word because once you’re getting your editors comments, you don’t want to go back to Scrivener I’m going to do so and everything I hate about word, which is the one Continuous Flow becomes fantastic at the end because you’re like, oh I need to bring that forward and need that little was like it was like I don’t sew, but I imagine it was like sewing or you know.

Rachael Herron: [00:19:50] And it’s like a little dance too. 

Jen Louden: [00:19:52] It was really fun. I really enjoyed that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:53] Can you share a craft tip of any kind that has helped you along in your writing? 

Jen Louden: [00:20:00] I think that idea Salient surprising detail and this is true, you know for fiction and Memoir more but clearly we can use it in I’m writing a self help book and what I see a lot of times of the writers, I work with and they get the idea of sensory detail they just pile it on.

You know, what I’ve certainly done that too, more is better. I’ll skip to the smell. Oh god, I’ve done that but really thinking what are the details? We don’t need to tell them anything. That is obvious. I don’t need to tell them what a chair looks like if that chair isn’t the iron throne.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:37] Or that grass is green as they curl their toes into it. 

Jen Louden: [00:20:40] Or wet or cool unless it seems so that is weird. I love teaching that and I love thinking about it because it’s really hard.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:51] it is really hard. But when you come up with those Salient surprising details, it’s so wonderful.

Jen Louden: [00:20:57] It is an editing book coaching a gal a small group of people right now in a nonfiction Mastermind.

She’s writing a memoir about three pilgrimages tip over images. She did in an illness in between these pilgrimages in Japan and she’s a really good writer and she has all these beautiful details about and she’s a food person like a super gourmet food person. So she’s all these details about the meals and and I’m like, I love all this and you’re just going to have to bring it back for now.

That’s fine that’s easy to do because there’s lots to choose from and there’s a travel food aspect to the book that I think will really appeal to people. I don’t want to bring it back too much, but I’m reading her working considering people surprising salient detail.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:43] and it’s always easier over write and pull back later

Jen Louden: [00:21:47] I am not an over writer.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:49] I am, oh God, I am.

Jen Louden: [00:21:51] And then the other thing I see in students. And this is quite as true for me. ButI see a lot of summary a lot of kind of writing it like it’s a blog post writing and I’m like, you got to slow down you to take me in there, you know.

Rachael Herron: [00:22:04] We want to be inside that moment with you. That’s all because interesting that more specific it is the more Universal it is. 

Jen Louden: [00:22:10] Right. I want to live that through you. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:11] Yeah. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way? 

Jen Louden: [00:22:18] If I eat too much sugar or drink too much alcohol, my mind is a moosh. If I do it for two or three days in a row I get anxiety 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:26] I get a migraine if I eat too much sugar in a row and I don’t drink at all anymore. 

Jen Louden: [00:22:30] Yeah, I need to get to that place. I’m still a social Drinker like last night. We had card night with girlfriends. I had one drink.

Rachael Herron: [00:22:38] Girl if you can do that. I’m an alcoholic so I had to just cut it out. If you could be a social drinker ride that.

Jen Louden: [00:22:41] Yes, I can I can quit but I think like why even one drink, you know, it’s all about social pull. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:51] What an interesting phrase flirting with alcoholism too that not there’s a book in there. 

Jen Louden: [00:22:57] Her young a disturbed young woman who was finding her way. I definitely drink too much.  

Rachael Herron: [00:23:02] it’s a good number

Jen Louden: [00:23:04] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:04] What is the best book you’ve read recently? 

Jen Louden: [00:23:06] The Overstory by Richard Powers. I just finished it last night.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:11] What’s the title of it?

Jen Louden: [00:23:12] The Overstory. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:13] What’s it about?

Jen Louden: [00:23:14] It is about the fact that we have completely fucked ourselves as a species, but the trees could save us. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:17] Really!

Jen Louden: [00:23:21] It is unbelievable. This is the first half of that book is one of the best books I’ve ever read the second half. I’m not too sure about, I may have to go back and read it again because and the last quarter as like I’m not sure about this. But I also I may not have read it carefully enough. Sometimes I read too quickly.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:40] Will it make me want to kill myself? 

Jen Louden: [00:23:42] No, no! No, there’s a lot. There’s a lot of hope there’s so so much. Hope because of the tree. And it’s talk about sensual prose. Oh my God.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:53] Oh thank you. I hadn’t heard anything about it. I’ll grab it. 

Jen Louden: [00:23:56] Yeah, you’ll love it speaking. That’s okay. That could not be people say they love a book and then you don’t love it. You never have to tell me that.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:03] I’m very easy about books if it’s good. I love it. If it’s not: I don’t read it. I stop reading it.

Jen Louden: [00:24:07] I’m the same way.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:09] It could be a chapter from the end and be like nah you lost me. 

Jen Louden: [00:24:13] I just read before that Half of a Yellow Sun. I cannot pronounce the Nigerian authors like cover my she wrote Americanah. Yes.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:23] It is like [Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie] I won’t try.

Jen Louden: [00:24:24] Yeah good. Excellent. Excellent. Effort there and I had put off reading it for so many years because it’s pretty it’s pretty harrowing. It’s about Biafra and their two and a half years of existence and then I picked up I was going to pick up Kate Atkinson’s new book afterwards and it starts with I know but it started with people being women look like they’re going to be sold in and I’m like not after Half of a Yellow Sun. Gotta wait a while! I picked up The Overstory and read that I’m like, okay. I think I need to read a fantasy magic. I love fantasy. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:57] You really need something very very cheerful and lightweight.

Jen Louden: [00:24:58] Only books that you read in a day. Okay I don’t even remember that, but that was fun.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:04] Like a cleanser. That’s what you’re doing.

Jen Louden: [00:25:06] Yes a palette cleanser.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:08] All right, speaking of writing and books tell us where we can find you. I would love to know I would love you to plug your newsletter, which I really love this is only these are only writers who listen to the show. So tell us about that part of your life.

Jen Louden: [00:25:22] Sure, so I work basically with two groups of people and that’ll and that’ll lately in the last few years. It’s been primarily writers, but with the new book it’ll broaden out. So it’ll be people who are in there why bother phase and getting help around that that will be starting mid-next year and then I work with General creatives from time to time and You know in the issues of how do I work just the same thing you do? How do I work better? How do I get past my fear? How do I expand my emotional immune system and then I work specifically with writers on my Retreats a couple of my we’re changing Retreats out next year, but they’ll still be three I think that are writing specific. And the virtual Retreats as well and then a nonfiction writers Mastermind and the only way that we talk about any of that is through my email list, and we’re not super salesy we. You know, we’re very respectful of your energy.

Rachael Herron: [00:26:16] You’re not too salesy at all. I’m super sensitive to that and I’m good on the unsubscribe button and I’ve never I’ve never come close.

Jen Louden: [00:26:23] good good good a newsletter is sometimes very writing specific and sometimes more life specific.

I wrote last month. I think I wrote about, you know, being a mom of a daughter who lives 3 hours away from me by plane. So it can be very personal. I write about my own creative process and. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:42] And where can I find them?

Jen Louden: [00:26:43] That’s https://jenniferlouden.com/. Those are dogs are both beside us and there’s a great freebie when you sign up for the newsletter right now actually on the website. There’s a fear Style Quiz that kind of goes it is emotional main system. That’s really fun. And you get a fear report that’s tailored to your fear style. So I’m really proud of that.

Rachael Herron: [00:27:06] I haven’t done that yet. I’m going to have to go grab that.

Jen Louden: [00:27:08] If you go to the website it pops up and if you don’t want that you can just unpop it and you can sign up and you get a great ebook that I wrote It’s all about getting unstuck and I’m really proud of that too so there’s a couple free things for you right buyer. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:22]  I want to thank you for all the work. For everybody I have just gotten so much out of you and from you and 

Jen Louden: [00:27:31] Thank you so much. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:33] I’m just very happy to share you with my listenership, and I hope that you also get to be in touch with him in the same way

Jen Louden: [00:27:40] I love that. I’m so grateful for this chance.

Rachael Herron: [00:27:43] And I can’t wait for why bother!

Jen Louden: [00:27:44] Yay. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:46] All right, Congratulations.  

Jen Louden: [00:27:47] Thank you!

Rachael Herron: [00:27:48] And we’ll be in touch and happy writing to you 

Jen Louden: [00:27:50] Happy writing to you too!

Rachael Herron: [00:27:52]  Bye. 

Jen Louden: [00:27:54] Thanks 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:55] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of how do you write you can reach me on Twitter @RachaelHerron  or at my website RachaelHerron.com You can also support me on patreon  and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at patreon.com slash Rachael spelled RACHAEL and do sign up for my free Weekly Newsletter of encouragement to writers at RachaelHerron.com/write. Now go to your desk and create your own process get to writing  my friends.