Archives for October 2019

AMY RIGBY is a songwriter, musician and performer. Her most recent album The Old Guys was voted one of the top 100 albums of 2018 in the Pazz & Jop US music critics’ poll. Her memoir Girl To City will be published October 8th. She plays her songs all over the world and writes online at diaryofamyrigby.wordpress.com. She lives with her husband and sometime duet partner Wreckless Eric in New York’s Hudson Valley. When she isn’t touring, she pours beer and sells books at The Spotty Dog in Hudson.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing.

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers.

Rachael’s author assistant, Ed, can be reached at EdwardGiordano@gmail.com and he’s awesome!

Rachael: [00:01] Welcome to How Do You Write, I’m your host Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is, and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Rachael: [00:15] Well, hello there writers, welcome to episode number 147 of How Do you Write. I’m Rachael Herron, completely thrilled that you’re here today. Today I’m talking to the amazing Amy Rigby, who was recommended by a listener and I am just delighted that I got to talk to her. She talks about singer-songwriting, which is something I’m always interested in, and memoir, which of course you know is my passion, and what it’s like to tend bar in a small community while being an artist, and I just thought that our talk was incredibly inspiring to me and I hope that you find it the same way. Little bit about what’s going on around here, I am back in revision on a project, working on that in my happy place, should finish that up tomorrow if I’m lucky. I am also getting ready to leave on vacation, so the podcast will be on vacation for two weeks. It will not be around for the next two Fridays because I’m going to be at the grand Canyon, Antelope Canyon, Zion, Bryce, and Las Vegas. Don’t worry, I have a lot of dogs in my house, this is true, and a big burly house sitter, who is taking care of the house, so please don’t come break into my house while I’m gone. And I hope that you miss me just a little bit, but I honestly do hope that you don’t even notice that there is an interruption in How Do You Write service because I can’t wait to come back and start it up. For some reason, I’ve got a lot of episodes in the bank. Sometimes I’m scrambling the day before, “Well, I should probably get a guest”, and sometimes I’ve got six or seven episodes in the can, and I have that right now, so that’s nice.

[02:01] I already know who’s coming up to talk to you when I come back and you’re going to enjoy those interviews too. So that’s on my plate right now, it’s cleaning stuff up so that I can go to this vacation with a clear plate. I am teaching just a little bit while I’m gone. I’m not coaching, not teaching at Stanford, I’ve got an extra week off there, so it’s going to be really enjoyable. We are planning on ending our trip in Vegas where, since I don’t drink, I am going to order all the expensive virgin piña coladas and drink them next to the pool, and I cannot wait. I’m going to bring so many books and probably come home with even more books. And I would also like to thank new patron subscriber, Patrick Martinez. Thank you so much, Patrick, for pledging and listening.

[02:53] I have been having a really wonderful, extremely crazy, awesome time talking to people, because of this show, who reach out to me for coaching requests, which you can always look at at http://rachaelherron.com/coach. I do a lot of one-offs. I’m actually not even trying to sell myself right here, I am trying to express to you how much joy I get out of this. Most people I talk to, I talk to maybe one to three times in just these one-offs, where they come to me and they say, “Rachael, I can’t”, and I say, “Oh my God, yes you can”, and “This is amazing because of this”, and “Why don’t you try that?”, and then they go away and do it and they tell me how much it helped to have somebody tell them that they could do it. So without the benefit of a phone call, one on one, with you right now, let me just talk to you for a second.

[03:44] You can do this. You’re listening to this podcast because you want to write. If you don’t want to write, I don’t know why you’re listening to this, because that’s what we talk about around here. If you want to write, you can, and you will, and you do. I was just talking to a class about this today, in fact. We try to learn how to write books. We try to write books, we try to write essays, articles, whatever it is that you are passionate about writing, but most of what we try to do is set up our lives so that we understand how our unique writing processes work. Every single one of our processes are different and that’s why I do this show. I like to talk to people about their processes. I will never understand my process fully as long as I live, and I love that because it’s constantly changing. And mine is very different from what yours is, and yours is very different from the next person, and that’s our full time job.

[04:44] Our full time goal as a writer, for the rest of our lives, is to figure out how we become the person who, when you get distracted away from your writing, you notice that and guide yourself back to the writing. It is exactly the same with meditation. If you’re meditating and you’re thinking about an object and you’re trying to still your mind, you will get distracted because that’s part of meditation. The magic of meditation is not in the moment where your brain is still and quiet, because that barely ever happens. The magic of meditation is when you notice you’ve become distracted and bring it back to centering your mind on whatever it is that you’re thinking about. Writing is exactly the same thing. We wander away, we don’t write for a day, or a few days, or a week, or a few years, we notice that and we bring ourselves back without judgment, without self-recrimination, and we write again.

[05:41] It’s exactly the same thing. It feels exactly the same way in our heads. We try to welcome ourselves back to the page, and that is something that is really hard for a person like me, who likes to beat myself up at every opportunity. I’m really trying hard not to do that now. When I notice that I’m not doing what I want myself to do, I bring myself back to what it is that I’m doing, gently, calmly, and it’s pretty great. So I hope that, if you’re listening to this, don’t beat yourself up, do a little writing, get some of your words and they will make you feel better, even if they’re crap, and I do hope they’re crap. First drafts are always terrible beasts and they should be the ugliest thing you’ve ever seen. You can fix them later. For now, your job is just catching some terrible, terrible, ugly words. Lower your expectations as low as you can, and then lower some more, and then do some writing. That’s how books get written.

[06:37] I feel like I had something else to share with you, but I don’t think I do, so please enjoy this interview with Amy Rigby. I am going to go back to the very fun process of trying to figure out where to go on retreat next year. I usually go to Venice in spring and I’m feeling a little bit Veniced out. Do not tell Venice, she’ll be mad at me. I’m thinking about Barcelona. If you get this in a timely manner, you can always email me to put in your vote of where I’m going, if you’d like to go on an international writing retreat next year, because they are one of my most joyful things that I do all year, I really love that. Speaking of joyful, I know what I wanted to tell you. I wanted to tell you about Ed Giordano, who I mentioned on The Writer’s Well.

[07:24] He is my new writing assistant and he’s incredible, and he’s hireable. Basically, I’ve been going out to brunch with him for about three years or so and every brunch that I go to, he tells me what I should be doing, and then I don’t do it because I don’t have time. He understands the book business, he understands uploading and downloading and sideloading, and multiple streams of income, and how to make audiobooks, and how to make large print, and how to do all of this stuff that I can’t stand doing, so he’s helping me with it because he was laid off from his job and he might try to make a go of this whole author-helping business. He’s phenomenal, he’s a very fast-thinking, talking millennial and he’s great. So if you want to reach out to him, you can reach him at edwardgiordano@gmail.com, and I told him that I would tell you about him. Edward spelled normally, Giordano is G-I-O-R-D-A-N-O at gmail.com, and I’ll try to remember to put that in the show notes and I bet if I forget, Ed will tell me to go put them up there. The only problem with having an amazing assistant is that he keeps creating more work for me, as he says, “I need this and I need this and I need this”, in order to get these things done, that I’ve been putting off for so long. He’s also local and he’s just darling, and so there’s my Ed plug. Now, please enjoy the show with Amy, I know that you will. Please get some writing done and then tell me all about it. We’ll talk soon.

Rachael: [08:53] This episode is brought to you by my book, Fast-Draft Your Memoir: Write Your Life Story in 45 Hours, which is by the way, totally doable and I tell you how. It’s the same class I teach in the continuing studies program at Stanford each year, and I’ll let you in on a secret. Even if you have no interest in writing a memoir yet, the book has everything I’ve ever learned about the process of writing, and of revision, and of story structure, and of just doing this thing that’s so hard and yet all we want to do. Pick it up today.

Rachael: [09:26] All right. Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, Amy Rigby. Hi Amy.

Amy:  [09:31] Hi.

Rachael: [09:32] I am so pleased to have you here. A reader or listener of mine, named Holly, told me about you and she’s one of your biggest fans, as I was saying off air. I’m sure you have a lot of those, but I’m so grateful that she turned me onto you because I have now gone and investigated you and I’m reading your blog. Let me give you a little bit of introduction and then I want to talk all things writing with you.

Amy:  [09:55] Great, thanks.

Rachael: [09:55] Amy Rigby is a songwriter, musician, and performer. Her most recent album, The Old Guys, was voted one of the top 100 albums of 2018, in the Pazz & Jop – is that how you say it? – US music critics poll.

Amy:  [10:08] Like that, yeah.

Rachael: [10:10] I love it. That’s funny. Her memoir, Girl To City, will be published October 8th, so right around when this podcast comes out. She plays her songs all over the world and writes online at http://diaryofamyrigby.wordpress.com. She lives with her husband and, sometimes, duet partner, Wreckless Eric, in New York’s Hudson Valley. When she isn’t touring, she pours beer and sells books at The Spotty Dog, in Hudson. Welcomes so much. I’ve already skimmed through and got really deep into your memoir, in the small amount of time that I’ve had it. I’m so compelled by your voice and I went pretty far into your old back catalog, on your blog. I find that your voice is so immediate and so narrative, and when I was listening to your music, your music is narrative too. Have you always been driven to tell stories? Tell us a little bit about that before we get into process.

Amy:  [11:09] I think so, because what got me into songwriting first was reading short stories and listening to country music. I’d been a big punk fan and a big rock music fan, but I think in the early eighties I started getting into old country and listening to the songs of like, Loretta Lynn and George Jones and Skeeter Davis. I loved the stories that they told about the real life, you know, “Take this job and shove it” kind of, just like, people going to work, people taking care of their kids, and it sort of dovetailed with them. That early eighties, there was this sort of explosion of short stories, at that time. You’re too young to remember this, you probably weren’t even born yet–

Rachael: [12:09] Oh, yes. I’m a seventies, early seventies baby.

Amy:  [12:14] –but yeah, there was like, Bobby Ann Mason, Raymond Carver. That’s the first time anyone heard of Raymond Carver, and these stories were just like– They were like songs, they were just little encapsulations of real life. No epic resolutions, they were like a little window into people’s day to day, and that really started me writing songs and I really wanted to do that. And so that’s what I’ve tried to do all along using, as my subject matter, myself because that’s what I knew and that’s what kind of gave me my topics.

Rachael: [13:00] I am passionate about memoir and creative nonfiction, and your voice is just so compelling. Yeah, I encourage everybody to check you out. Let’s talk a little bit about your process and how it differs. I think you’re the second songwriter I’ve had on here. Do you know Jeffrey Foucault, or Foucault, do you pronounce it?

Amy: [13:20] Yeah.

Rachael: [13:20] Yeah, he was on here too, and I’m so fascinated by songwriting, and it’s something that I want to try to learn how to do someday.

Amy: [13:31] Well, you should because we’re all starting to try to write books.

Rachael: [13:37] I’ve written a few songs and they were absolutely terrible, but you know, that’s how we all start with any kind of writing. What is your writing process look like? Kind of compare song writing to a longer form of writing.

Amy:  [13:51] Okay. Well, since this is my first book, and it was hugely harder than I ever could have imagined anything could be. Writing songs is wonderful because it’s like a three minute arc, you get in, you get out, you tell your story, and also you have a lot of help because, I’ve got melody, I’ve got rhythm, I’ve got harmony, I’ve got the harmony of the melody against the chords that I choose to play. I’ve got the whole history of popular music as references and little– You can say so much with all these things. That’s why lots of songs just have– Even wordless syllables can work because you’re telling a story. If you’re playing a minor chord, then it’s going to feel sad or scary. If you play a major chord, it’s going to feel happy, triumphant, all these things. So writing songs is just kind of– I mean, I just do it really fast, I get an idea, kind of a theme or something that’s bugging me or some conversation I overhear, and I just grab a line from that, and some kind of melody just starts percolating, and then I go to get a chorus that kind of somehow opens it up and tells me what the song’s really about. And then, if I’m really invested, I’ll even write a bridge in there that’s kind of more like a reflective moment.

Rachael: [15:38] You make it sound so easy, but I know it isn’t.

Amy:  [15:41] I mean, I guess it happens fast like that for me, but then writing without all that help, without my guitar and being able to play a little riff or some chords, is a lot more like the words have to do all the work, and so it’s a lot harder. It is. We play music and it is like child’s play.

Rachael: [16:13] Oh my Gosh, you’re right. We don’t say that we play writing.

Amy:  [16:15] No, absolutely not.

Rachael: [16:17] That would explain a lot. So what did your process look like for writing this particular book?

Amy:  [16:22] Well, I kind of snuck up on it by– I wanted to write a memoir, and a friend who worked for an agent, years ago, said like, “Oh, you really should write about kind of–“. My first album was about being a mom, and kind of the breakup of a marriage, and kind of, “Write a book that’s based on that”. Well, I’ve first kind of had to learn how to write. And so I started writing a blog. I’ve started even before they called it a blog, I started–

Rachael: [16:58] I saw that. It was in the nineties, right?

Amy:  [17:00] Yeah. And I just called it my online diary, and just wrote about my experiences on the road, you know, touring, playing music, and then stuck in stuff about my temp jobs and my daughter, and yeah, just really mundane real-life details. I love reading that stuff in other people’s blog. I loved when everybody started writing about their– I could read that Pete Thompson, sorry, Pete Townsend had– He was having some kind of itch, he had some kind of, I don’t know, he’d gotten poison ivy or something, and I was like, “I can’t believe I’m reading that Pete Townsend put on a band-aid or something”, and this is someone who was– He was just this mythic figure to me, from the world of rock music, and to just hear that he had this day to day thing, I love that about blogs. So I just was kind of writing a little tour diary, then I ended up moving to rural France and that was– There was no one to talk to. I was learning to speak French, all of our neighbors were these older French people, and I felt very– There was a field of cows across the street from my window and that was it, and I just felt very isolated after living in New York City, in Nashville, living among my musical peers and just being able to hang out with people that live the same type of creative life that I do. And there were many at the time, many expat blogs, there just were hundreds of people just kind of trying to make sense of being in a different place. Then, at the time, there were also a lot of mom blogs, but I had– my daughter had gone off to college, so I would have loved those when she was little, but it didn’t exist yet, so she was off on doing her thing. So I didn’t really feel any– In fact, I was kind of like, “I’m done, I’m done with worrying about child care and lunches, and I don’t have to think about that anymore”. So that just got me writing, and back then, if you blogged, you felt like you should do it a couple times a week at least.

Rachael: [19:32] 2002 is when I started my knitting blog, and we had the same kind of community and you did feel like you had to commit to blogging and also commenting on your friends’ blogs, and–

Amy:  [19:47] It was great. It was a great way to just kind of feel connected to something. And it got me just getting more of a writing practice beyond– what really got me focused on writing, not music. Music was the artist’s way, back in the eighties, nineties. It was the nineties. That book was huge for me and got me doing those morning pages, which, you know, it’s never gone away. I have to write when I get up in the morning and I don’t stick to, you know, I’m not like that three page, I don’t do that religiously, but I just don’t feel like I’m really fully functioning unless I do that, which is– I know one of your questions was like, “What’s one of the biggest challenges?”, and it is when I’m on tour.

Rachael: [20:44] Let’s talk about that, your biggest challenge about writing.

Amy:  [20:47] Yeah. Having a routine, in some way, is so great, and being on tour, the type of touring I do, which can be, you know, not exactly rugged. I mean I’m not sleeping on people’s floors anymore. I left that behind thankfully, in my forties maybe. But it’s just how there’s no routine sometimes, you know, I don’t go to bed till two or three in the morning. Sometimes I have to get up and drive so early that I don’t really have time to write. Sometimes. Sometimes my husband and I play together and he’s sleeping in the room, and I need to go down to the Holiday Inn express buffet, but there’s a TV blaring, all these things. And I think that’s part of the reason why it took me so long to write a book, because when I was on tour, it just felt– and those would be sections of four weeks or something, where I could not get that mental space to be, you know, to get anything going, but when I come home I just jump right back in, and just, that’s one of the delights of being back home, is just being able to get up in the morning at a kind of nice early time, and have my time and space to do some writing.

Rachael: [22:14] I am such a routine lover. I’m one of those– My wife always says that I set up routine wherever I go. By the second day in the city, I have my favorite coffee shop already. I know the way I like to walk, it makes me feel safe somehow. But yeah, I also– I just can’t work when I’m traveling. Period. I finally learned that about myself.

Amy:  [22:33] It’s hard. It is so hard.

Rachael: [22:35] I’ve given up beating myself up about it. So you’ve talked about challenge. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing? Anything, songwriting book writing.

Amy:  [22:43] I guess always just that feeling that I said something in a song or in a story or blog, something that I couldn’t quite get to without writing it. I had a feeling, it was almost like a nagging, like Pete Townsend’s itch, and something that just kind of there, you know, that I want to express and it’s not till I’m actually writing, putting one word after another, that it comes out, and I just love that about writing. It was the same with songwriting and probably less so, because I’ve written so many songs, I kind of eel more compelled now to write just non-songwriting kind of writing, just because I had done– Not to say I don’t still need to get something to sing, but to just write something, just words on a page, that feeling that I captured what I was going through and that somehow, if somebody else reads it, they will just feel the same thing that I was feeling, I just like that connection.

Rachael: [24:07] Just on the top of your blog, the most recent one when we’re recording this, on September 10th, is the story about the tent that you thought your neighbor stole, and– the hammock, sorry, a hammock, but I just love the way you wrote it. Your writing is beautiful and I was there with you and I felt all those emotions, and I just really feel like you have such a gift for this. Can you share a craft tip which might help us at all?

Amy:  [24:33] I think the hard thing, for me, writing my book, I found that I like writing scenes, I like writing dialogues, I like remembering what happened, but I don’t like saying how something made me feel or– and that feels like such an important part of sharing what happened to you. It’s like that thing where like, “Why are you telling me this?”. So I find that kind of sneaking up– I guess I sneak up on a lot of things, I just trick myself into everything. But writing, really getting into the scene kind of helps me be able to– Then kind of how I was feeling sort of pops out without having to define it. I can kind of find my way there. I don’t know if this is– I don’t think I’m really being concrete enough, but to just– Even if I just want to write a blog and I don’t know what I want to write, I just just kind of think of something that happened to me at the supermarket, or get out and take a walk and just start imagining something going on at the neighbor’s house and just start to try to write what– just little details of that.

[26:10] Yeah, find the details, basically, and those little things that seem so specific to that moment, somehow they open up something that’s bigger. That is someone like, way on the other side of the country, who’s got a palm tree instead of a pine tree, and they don’t have a snowblower and a snow shovel because it never– but something about the act of shoveling that snow or feeling. I’ve found that with songs, that the more specific I was about my own story that I wanted to tell, the details, the more someone else could project their own details on there. I have this song called Summer of My Wasted Youth, and it’s all about being an art student in New York City in the early eighties, and listening to country music, and just what I was into then, but something about that song and those details– Like people say, “Oh, I had those, I had that year in Boston or in Atlanta, or…”, and I love that.

Rachael: [27:36] I do love that. And I love that, especially in any kind of memoir, including songwriting, is the more specific we are, the more universal the story becomes, and I think that’s beautiful. And you’re talking about it the same way that you earlier talked about writing a song, how it kind of opens up to you and leads you, and if you’re inspired, you might write a bridge, and those details are what is landing this to you.

Amy:  [27:59] Yeah, very much.

Rachael: [28:01] What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?

Amy:  [28:07] I was thinking about that and it’s probably — At the end of my bio, you said that I pour beer and sell books at The Spotty Dog, in Hudson. I never had that kind of job before, in all my years of being an artist, being a musician, having to scrape by and stuff. I did a lot of temp work, a lot of office jobs, so I was never that person with a waitress job in New York City. I didn’t work in the service industry, but since I’ve been in this part of the world I’ve had this job in a bookstore, that also happens to serve beer. And so it really is like a wonderful place, and I love being a bartender. It’s an easy bartending job, but I don’t have to– We just serve beer and wine, I don’t have to mix drinks and throw out bar chatter there, because it’s a bookstore too. But I love just kind of having to interact with the public in a way that doesn’t involve me being on stage, which I’ve done for 30 some years. So I get to just be serving other people and it’s about them, not about me. And I love to hear their stories, I just love the experiences that I have there. I could write a whole other book based on just the kooky, wonderful people who come in, and just the sort of mix of books which I love, and bar chatter, and just being also at the center of a small community, and all the characters that come and go, and then the city people from New York who come up and come through and go, “Five dollars for a beer? How is this even possible?”. It really is like being in an episode of Cheers, and so I never thought that I could enjoy this other job.

Rachael: [30:14] I think that sounds idyllic and wonderful. Oh, I think we froze–

Rachael: [30:24] Oh, sorry, Skype seems to be freezing up just a little bit for us, but I think you’re back though.

Amy:  [30:33] Anyway, so that’s been nice. That’s been nice. And I realized, when I was writing my memoir too, that those moments of those day jobs that I had to do, that I suffered through and, while I was there I would be thinking, “When I don’t have to do this anymore, my real life as an artist will begin”. Looking back over that, I realize those were some of the richest moments of my life. Those gave me so much to write about, so much that fed into my art, and I think that if I could tell anybody anything about writing or doing, trying to do something creative, like, “Don’t feel bad about these other things you have to do to support yourself, they can be a rich source for you”.

Rachael: [31:30] I so agree with you. Anything that we’re in today is part of that art. That’s what we’re using and transforming into art. I love that. We are running out of time, but I would like you to tell us where we can find you and tell us a little bit about the book, please.

Amy:  [31:46] Okay. Well, this book, I made the story kind of– I zeroed in on my time in New York City. I went there in 1976, from Pittsburgh, as an art student, and trying to do the two things, in New York of the 20th century, so it was a struggle, but it was such an incredible time in the city that I didn’t realize until I left it all behind, and– I know I’m not doing a very good– I’m still so in the book, just trying to– So it’s got a lot about my musical life, and– I love reading music memoir autobiographies of my favorite musicians and people I’ve never heard of.

[33:02] The part I always like the best is the first third, where they’re struggling and trying to figure it out, and they’re cobbling together a career out of just like, crappy gigs and strange people that they need, who end up being the people who teach them what they need to know, and that’s pretty much my whole book.

Rachael: [33:25] Good. That’s also my favorite part.

Amy: [33:29] The thing that always disappoints me is when, like, Keith Richards starts telling me like, “And here’s my dogs and I have these three houses”, or when someone starts saying, “And then I decided to be on Broadway, because I always really wanted to act”, and that’s fine, but when it just turns into a CV of their later accomplishments and I’m like, “Yeah, but I want to go back to where we were scrabbling and you were telling me about–

Rachael: [34:03] Living in a squat, and…

Amy:  [34:03] My whole book is like cars breaking down.

Rachael: [34:07] And it is called Girl To City, by Amy Rigby, and it will be out by the time this airs probably. Where can people find you online?

Amy:  [34:17] I’m at http://amyrigby.com, and I’ll also be all over the country. I’ll be doing a lot of dates, a lot of book tour dates, which will be, for me, like a combination of reading stories from the book and playing songs that relate to the stories in the book.

Rachael: [34:35] Are you coming to the Bay Area, San Francisco?

Amy: [34:38] I am. I’m coming to Starline Social Club, in Oakland–

Rachael: [34:42] I’m in Oakland.

Amy:  [34:42] –on Thursday, November 7th.

Rachael: [34:44] Thursday, November 7th, I’m going to look at my– Yeah, I live in Oakland. I’m looking at my calendar really briefly here. I’m free, I’m going to be there. I’ll meet you then. Thank you so much for this, Amy. What a joy. Thanks to Holly for introducing us and–

Amy:  [35:02] Yes. I don’t know where she lives, but maybe she’s in Oakland too.

Rachael: [35:08] That would be rad. That would be wonderful. Thank you Amy so much, and happy writing to you.

Amy:  [35:17] Thank you.

Rachael: [35:17] Thank you. Bye-bye.

Rachael: [35:20] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of How Do You Write. You can reach me on Twitter, Rachael Herron, or at my website, http://rachaelherron.com, You can also support me on Patreon, and get essays on living your creative life, for as little as a buck an essay, at http://www.patreon.com/rachael, spelled R-A-C-H-A-E-L. And do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers at http://rachaelherron.com/write. Now, go to your desk and create your own process, and get to writing my friends.

Jennifer Louden is a personal growth pioneer who helped launch the concept of self-care with her first best-selling book The Woman’s Comfort Book. Since then, she’s written six additional books on well-being and whole living, with a million copies of her books in print in nine languages. Jennifer has spoken around the U.S., Canada, and Europe, and has written a national magazine column for Martha Stewart magazine. Plus, she’s been profiled or quoted in dozens of major magazines, two of Brené Brown’s books Daring Greatly and Dare to Lead, appeared on hundreds of TV, radio shows and podcasts, and even on Oprah.

Jennifer has been teaching women’s writing and self-care retreats since 1992 and creating vibrant online communities and innovative learning experiences since 2000. She married the love of her life at 50 and is profoundly proud to be mom to Lillian and bonus mom to Aidan.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers.

TRANSCRIPT

HDYW146

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome do how to you right? I’m your host Rachael Herron on this podcast. I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:00:16] Well, hello writers. Welcome to episode number 146 of how do you write?

I’m Rachael Herron and I’m thrilled that you’re here with me today today. We are talking to the Magnificent Jen Loudon; Jen Loudon, if you follow Joanna Penn’s podcast the Creative Penn she was just on it. I’ve been a fan of Jen for a long time now and I really believe that she’s one of the most inspiring speakers in the field of creativity and self care so stick around for that. She’s so lovely.

In personal update around here. You can hear that I’m sick for some reason since I left my day job. I think I was always working with moms of small children, and I got a lot of. You know secondhand cooties that way and managed to keep my immune system high and I never got colds. And since I’ve gone full time three and a half years ago.

I really get more cold than I ever used to. So this one is a wicked wicked summer. I guess early fall cold that’s been going around the Bay Area and I’ve got it so I will not subject you to the sound of my voice for as long as I normally do, but all is going well around here. I am working hard on something I cannot talk about.

That is good hate to do that. So I won’t talk about that anymore. I wanted to thank new patrons and returning Patron Lefty Albay Lefty. Love you. Thank you so so so much means the world and Mel Climbo. Oh Mel, you’re familiar to me too. So, I love to see old patrons who maybe weren’t around for a while come back and then go and I always mean to say this around my Patreon and it’s true. I love your support. It means the difference between me being here able to do this and having to get a part-time job. That’s how important patreon is to me. However, when people sign in to change and they can no longer help support me there is literally zero percent of me that minds when they go away at all, zero percent, I’m happy because I can only it’s just generosity. All I get to do is be grateful for it and I am so oh goodness. No, I will mention that. It’s been a terribly busy week around here. I think since the last time I talked to my cat has gone into kidney failure and we’ve speaking the money drop several thousand dollars on him.

He’s doing really well. So in a way that the vet doesn’t really. And it’s great and we’ve been spending a lot of time cuddling today and yesterday since we’re both kind of on the couch. So that’s been great to be able to just be around him and spend time around this wonderful little cat named Willie who is a badass and my little companion.

So that has been good. Otherwise, let’s just jump into the show with Jen. I will have a longer update for you next week when I know that I will feel better. Enjoy the show with Jen and happy writing to you. I really love it. When you reach out and tell me how you’re doing. Also in all of the show notes. There is always a place to join my slack channel for writers called Onward Writer. Please go over and click that link to join the Slack channel. There’s some good conversations happening over there. It’s a good place to look for beta readers. It’s a good place to talk about your writing. I would love to have you, so join that please it’s always free and it’s always fun. So have you writing we’ll talk to you soon. Bye.

Hey, you’re a writer. Did you know that I send out a free weekly email of writing encouragement go sign up for it RachaelHerron.com, right and you’ll also get my stop stalling and write PDF with helpful tips. You can use today to get some of your own writing done.

Okay now on to the interview, Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome onto the show Jennifer Loudon. Hello, Jennifer. 

Jen Louden: [00:04:13] It was my pleasure to be here on this warm afternoon will spend a little time getting together to have let’s go. 

Rachael Herron: [00:04:19] Let’s do it. It’ll bring out our emotions. Let me give you a little bit of a bio here before we jump into it Jennifer Loudon is a personal growth Pioneer who helped launch the concept of self-care with her first best-selling book the woman’s comfort book since then she’s written six additional books on well-being and whole living with a million copies. Books in print in nine languages Jennifer has spoken around the US Canada and Europe and has written a national magazine column for Martha Stewart magazine. Plus she’s been profiled or quoted in dozens of major magazines to a burn a Brown’s books daring greatly and dare to lead has appeared on TV radio shows podcasts and even on Oprah

She’s been teaching women’s writing and self-care Retreat since 1982 and creating vibrant online communities and Innovative learning experiences in 2000. She married the love of her life at 50 and is profoundly proud to be mom to Lillian and bonus mom to Aidan. Welcome. 

I literally cannot remember where I found you or where I got onto your e-mail newsletter list, but it’s so inspiring to me and I actually took one of your all day virtual retreats. Just because I wanted to see what happened and it was beautiful. You created such a beautiful warm environment and I so thoroughly enjoyed being there 

Jen Louden: [00:05:38] Oh, that’s great!

Rachael Herron: [00:05:39] That is what gave me the the bravery to approach you and ask you to be on the show because I really just admire what you’re doing, but this show is about process

Jen Louden: [00:05:49] It’s all about process earlier process.

Rachael Herron: [00:05:52] Knowing your process and finding it out uncovering it which takes years and years and years and is always changing. I think it just did so I would like to know about your writing process is now. What it looks like and maybe what it was when you first started what has changed?

Jen Louden: [00:06:06] Oh, well, I think the thing that has changed. The biggest most important thing is that I have a much more realistic process, and I know how to work with my mind. A million times better. So when I first started writing I was I mean, I started writing in high school. I wrote in college. I pursued screenwriting after college studying writing in college and I was a tortured writer

I believed all the myths about writing should just come if you didn’t write easily and naturally you aren’t really a writer. It was my greatest fear that I wasn’t really a writer that. You know that you should just have to sit down without any kind of pre-thinking or planning and just pound it out and those kind of thoughts and beliefs.

I should say that really really got me stuck.

Rachael Herron: [00:07:02] Where did we get those? 

Jen Louden: [00:07:05] Well, I mean I thought about that a lot because in addition to the virtual Retreats, I’ve been leading in person writing Retreats and I work with writers one-on-one and in addition to everything else. And I think it’s because of literacy being such a big deal because we have to remember that within our lifetime like my extended family there were people there who barely graduated sixth grade but literacy was power.

And then if we go back just a few Generations more owning a book going to school all of those things weren’t guaranteed and they were often for the elite and then go back a few Generations more. They certainly were for the elite reading and right, you know, and then if we add race and being a woman into that.

So I think some of that is rooted in some of those cultural stories about us knowing it. I also think that writing has a Mystique being a writer has a Mystique around it, which is hysterical  to me. I mean, I’m sorry. Have you ever watched somebody write? It’s about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Rachael Herron: [00:07:57] We’re in our yoga pants weird makeup happening. Yeah, there’s just yeah. 

Jen Louden: [00:08:01] In this little room, maybe I dance to some music. So for some reason there’s a lot of baggage and one of the things that I’ll do in my longer Retreats a sort of unpack that we do an exercise around it and start for people to start to look at.

What is the baggage that I carry around this label of writer or painter or artist or creative you name it and what is it about this that I need to pay attention to is part of my process because those stories beliefs cultural. Imprints are part of our self-concept and when our self-concept is threatened, then we go into fight or flight or freeze and all without our awareness. 

Rachael Herron: [00:08:41]  Speaking of that could you go into a little bit about the emotional immune system that you wrote about this week. That was fascinating to me. And I think it’s I think it’s linked. 

Jen Louden: [00:08:51] So an emotional means this term is a term I came up with but it’s based on the lack of resettle a he and Bob Keegan at Harvard and a whole system that they have around

Looking at what they just call your ability. They just caught your immune system and that the idea is that we are constructed in a way through our nervous system through our brain to stay defended and this is when the most brilliant ideas that I learned from them. We’re not afraid of change their whole thing is change management.

We’re not afraid. We’re not self-sabotaging. We’re not undisciplined. Fun, we don’t have okay, we may have bad habits. But the reason why we have bad habits is because our emotional immune system our brain our nervous system our self-concept all of these different layers are all about keeping us defended because it’s some level in our little bodies and brains.

We know that we could die any minute and we don’t want to, we know that a meteor could drop right now on us and you know that the giant supervolcano under Yellowstone could explode we know that we could have cancer right now and not even know it. This is the fact that we like to get away from it so we can get on with our business.

So when we do anything that is outside of what is we could kind of say safe, kind of comfortable but really the word they use that I love these defend it. We feel defended. I feel defended what I’m checking email. I know how to do that. I know how to answer my clients. I know how to answer my assistant.

I know how to respond. I don’t know how to respond. If I look at my document that I’m writing on and have not done any thinking or planning and expect myself to go in and start writing a new scene in a novel or. You know and so then I go back to what’s defended. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:32] which is I think it email and doing all that those busy work tasks

Jen Louden: [00:10:35] Right? I love that where I love eating crunchy snacks.  Yeah, it’s great. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:41] I like Netflix. 

Jen Louden: [00:10:42] Yeah it’s great.

Rachael Herron: [00:10:43] I’m very good at Netflix. I’m pretty much an expert at Netflix.

Jen Louden: [00:10:45] I’m amazed with how much stress eating I’ve been doing in the end the last week. I finished my book. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:48] Congratulations. 

Jen Louden: [00:10:51] Yeah. I have one more pass at it, but and I haven’t had that behavior a long time oh my God pickles and crackers and cake and oh my my. Your pants are getting happy and like okay. I know let’s see how we can you know, I had to start trying to use my own tools. 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:05] Yeah, there’s something I thought about like the blood glucose the glucose of the brain dropping when you’re thinking that hard and your brain is screaming it’s an emergency. Give me a lollipop but what I love about emotionally means system. It just hit home so much that so much that I forwarded your message out to my wife and I just wanted to share this with you. She wrote that she wrote back. I have emotional allergies. I need some emotional Claritin and maybe an emotional Neti Pot.

Jen Louden: [00:11:32] Oh my God. I love it that’s brilliant! Oh my God.

Rachael Herron: [00:11:35] I wanted to share that with you.

Jen Louden: [00:11:35] that is so great 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:36] But what is your writing process now? Do you wake up and roll over to the computer or do you get there around noon or what? What does that look like? 

Jen Louden: [00:11:43] No, I’m definitely a morning writer I taught myself to be morning writer when my daughter was born.

She’s 25 now and I was always really has to be just perfect and you know, like oh, it’s tell you that it was like I have. Two hours to write while she like I would nurse her. I would run it on the hill to my parents. They were they live near us for a while to help at the early stages. The first few months, I would drop her off.

I would run back up the hill in the car, I would write, write, write. My milk would come in. I would pump while I was eating lunch with the other hand. I would write write write write my milk will come in and I know where to have to go down the hill to get her and she would be waking up from her nap that taught me I could write anywhere anytime.

Well it’s and I finished the book. I was a pregnant woman’s comfort book. I finished that book. Sleep deprived I’m not even knowing I had terrible postpartum depression because I yeah, I was writing about it.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:33] How interesting that you were writing a comfort book. 

Jen Louden: [00:12:36] I was writing comfort book. I was writing about postpartum depression and it wasn’t occurring to me because the way it showed up for me was anxiety and that research wasn’t well-developed then now we know so much more about it. Thank God because it’s so common is so awful. So I think we’re waiting for us is now when I’m in the drafting stage is very different than the editing stage for me. I am not happy drafter.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:58] I am not either. 

Jen Louden: [00:12:59] Yeah, you don’t like these people are like, are you ready, practice. And I feel looks like really yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:13:05] I’m all about revision.

Jen Louden: [00:13:07] Yeah, I’m all about revision. Revision really makes me happy and joyful. So drafting means I think the most important things for me are to know what I’m going to write the next day and is what I’m always telling my writers that I work with. What am I actually going to work on the next day and I has to be clear enough to me

It doesn’t make sense to anybody else that. That I’m ready to go and then I have it up on my big computer here. I have freedom internet blocking software program so that there’s nothing here that can drag me away. And then my habit when I’m drafting is to I will check my email on my desktop of my laptop, which is downstairs in the kitchen, but I don’t allow myself to have coffee until like I’m ready to come here and I’m not going to do very much about coffee in the morning. Genius hack. Yeah, I used to make myself stand up and then I was like, no no just no coffee. And when I’m really in a groove then I will get up I’ll you know do the water and put on, you know, clothes all that, but I’m close and then I’ll go meditate. Then I’ll check email and see if there’s any emergencies with my team and then I make my latte and that’s the trigger to come upstairs where there’s no way out. Right and whenever I’m going to start is right here, so that kind of discipline. I really need in drafting because I’ll do anything I can to wiggle out when I’m editing I don’t need freedom. I don’t need a ritual. I don’t need to have it. I could do half an hour worth of busy work or responding to things click off a few things be almost done with my latte and then be. Great, I get to edit. I mean it’s pleasurable for me. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:47] That’s exactly the same way I am. And I like hearing other people say that. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing?

Jen Louden: [00:14:57] Oh. I have learning disability. So my biggest challenge is I would call it a lot of different things but we might call it structure organization flow of ideas. So give you an idea what this book that comes out in May, ‘Why Bother?’ When working on different subtitles discover the desire for what’s next.

I think that’s a subtitle we’re going it might be discovered your desire for what’s next. We haven’t quite decided yet. We’re waiting for the book reps to come back and say what they vote for so in that. I use scrivener. I’m a big Scrivener fan and I did lots. I almost wrote it like little short essays that were whooped by these by these phases or stages of this process that I came up with the how you go from what I call the dark side or the Blah side either the left or lethargic side to why bother to that why bother?

What did indeed do I bother about and what do I want to bother? What don’t I want to bother about him really finding that desire to animate yourself again into what’s next. And so but when I actually gave it to Beta readers after the second draft, four different beta readers and two came back and we’re basically like it’s not working for me this way and one of them was very much in our own why bother process which I didn’t know and she’s like, I need to feel more held I need to feel more like in this is happens in this.

So that was a challenge for me writing it in the little essays really work for my kind of brain and putting it together in a flow was it was really a lot more difficult, but I got there I got that day. I almost did too much of it and I took some of it out on this draft. And we’re going to make it Web Extras for people because I it’s a self-help book, but it’s very much a memoir as well.

Rachael Herron: [00:16:43] I cannot wait to read it. By the way.

Jen Louden: [00:16:45] I have a little vulnerability hangover. I was so finishing includes most about two or three days ago and I was really like I’ve been stress eating as I said pretty unusual for me, like just grumpy having a cocktail almost every night also and unusual I don’t usually drink during the week.

And I just hit me like I ain’t talked about slow on the uptake. There’s a shit ton of me in this book and I talked about really big dark stuff and. I think it just hit the people. I know I don’t people like don’t know fine. I don’t care what you know about me but my friends and my neighbors and a little bit of my family that’s left. I’m like, oh shit what have I done. 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:31] Isn’t it good that you kept it from yourself until that point good job.

Jen Louden: [00:17:35] We did then but here’s the hysterical thing. I spent four years and 500 pages writing a lot of this as a memoir. That didn’t work. And I didn’t have that feeling for four years nor in the last seven months where I found this whole new structure and then pulled things out that fit that structure. So you talked about being clueless to yourself. Yes!

Rachael Herron: [00:17:55] I love that. There’s always surprises to find out about ourselves.

Jen Louden: [00:17:58] We have no idea what we do almost everything we do is unconscious, right? And I think that’s delicious. 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:05] What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing?

Jen Louden: [00:18:08] You know, I was really impressed as I was writing this doing this for third fourth draft for threw up I guess whatever I’ve lost track but with my editors comments, and I’m really impressed by my scenes. And you know, I’ve had a long I have a fiction background and but I’ve yet to successfully write a novel and I’m like, I wonder if you could really do it just like there’s these but then I thought these scenes took me years to write. We would have to do it a little more quickly, but maybe if we were writing about ourselves that would be easier. So I was really impressed by that that was joyful for me to read and I think it was joyful for me to write I think I do love that. Sensory building out a word finding the right details that really reveal action reveal character.

I love it when I come up with a Zinger, you know, like life never gives up on you, you give up on life. I’m like, yes! Yes, yes tweet that! 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:10] Which you should yeah exactly.  

Jen Louden: [00:19:15] Yeah, and again I love revising. I love how you know, what was so cool because I haven’t finished a book in so many years so many books flop on me or that I flopped on them, but to leave scrivener and put it in word because once you’re getting your editors comments, you don’t want to go back to Scrivener I’m going to do so and everything I hate about word, which is the one Continuous Flow becomes fantastic at the end because you’re like, oh I need to bring that forward and need that little was like it was like I don’t sew, but I imagine it was like sewing or you know.

Rachael Herron: [00:19:50] And it’s like a little dance too. 

Jen Louden: [00:19:52] It was really fun. I really enjoyed that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:53] Can you share a craft tip of any kind that has helped you along in your writing? 

Jen Louden: [00:20:00] I think that idea Salient surprising detail and this is true, you know for fiction and Memoir more but clearly we can use it in I’m writing a self help book and what I see a lot of times of the writers, I work with and they get the idea of sensory detail they just pile it on.

You know, what I’ve certainly done that too, more is better. I’ll skip to the smell. Oh god, I’ve done that but really thinking what are the details? We don’t need to tell them anything. That is obvious. I don’t need to tell them what a chair looks like if that chair isn’t the iron throne.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:37] Or that grass is green as they curl their toes into it. 

Jen Louden: [00:20:40] Or wet or cool unless it seems so that is weird. I love teaching that and I love thinking about it because it’s really hard.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:51] it is really hard. But when you come up with those Salient surprising details, it’s so wonderful.

Jen Louden: [00:20:57] It is an editing book coaching a gal a small group of people right now in a nonfiction Mastermind.

She’s writing a memoir about three pilgrimages tip over images. She did in an illness in between these pilgrimages in Japan and she’s a really good writer and she has all these beautiful details about and she’s a food person like a super gourmet food person. So she’s all these details about the meals and and I’m like, I love all this and you’re just going to have to bring it back for now.

That’s fine that’s easy to do because there’s lots to choose from and there’s a travel food aspect to the book that I think will really appeal to people. I don’t want to bring it back too much, but I’m reading her working considering people surprising salient detail.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:43] and it’s always easier over write and pull back later

Jen Louden: [00:21:47] I am not an over writer.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:49] I am, oh God, I am.

Jen Louden: [00:21:51] And then the other thing I see in students. And this is quite as true for me. ButI see a lot of summary a lot of kind of writing it like it’s a blog post writing and I’m like, you got to slow down you to take me in there, you know.

Rachael Herron: [00:22:04] We want to be inside that moment with you. That’s all because interesting that more specific it is the more Universal it is. 

Jen Louden: [00:22:10] Right. I want to live that through you. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:11] Yeah. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way? 

Jen Louden: [00:22:18] If I eat too much sugar or drink too much alcohol, my mind is a moosh. If I do it for two or three days in a row I get anxiety 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:26] I get a migraine if I eat too much sugar in a row and I don’t drink at all anymore. 

Jen Louden: [00:22:30] Yeah, I need to get to that place. I’m still a social Drinker like last night. We had card night with girlfriends. I had one drink.

Rachael Herron: [00:22:38] Girl if you can do that. I’m an alcoholic so I had to just cut it out. If you could be a social drinker ride that.

Jen Louden: [00:22:41] Yes, I can I can quit but I think like why even one drink, you know, it’s all about social pull. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:51] What an interesting phrase flirting with alcoholism too that not there’s a book in there. 

Jen Louden: [00:22:57] Her young a disturbed young woman who was finding her way. I definitely drink too much.  

Rachael Herron: [00:23:02] it’s a good number

Jen Louden: [00:23:04] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:04] What is the best book you’ve read recently? 

Jen Louden: [00:23:06] The Overstory by Richard Powers. I just finished it last night.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:11] What’s the title of it?

Jen Louden: [00:23:12] The Overstory. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:13] What’s it about?

Jen Louden: [00:23:14] It is about the fact that we have completely fucked ourselves as a species, but the trees could save us. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:17] Really!

Jen Louden: [00:23:21] It is unbelievable. This is the first half of that book is one of the best books I’ve ever read the second half. I’m not too sure about, I may have to go back and read it again because and the last quarter as like I’m not sure about this. But I also I may not have read it carefully enough. Sometimes I read too quickly.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:40] Will it make me want to kill myself? 

Jen Louden: [00:23:42] No, no! No, there’s a lot. There’s a lot of hope there’s so so much. Hope because of the tree. And it’s talk about sensual prose. Oh my God.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:53] Oh thank you. I hadn’t heard anything about it. I’ll grab it. 

Jen Louden: [00:23:56] Yeah, you’ll love it speaking. That’s okay. That could not be people say they love a book and then you don’t love it. You never have to tell me that.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:03] I’m very easy about books if it’s good. I love it. If it’s not: I don’t read it. I stop reading it.

Jen Louden: [00:24:07] I’m the same way.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:09] It could be a chapter from the end and be like nah you lost me. 

Jen Louden: [00:24:13] I just read before that Half of a Yellow Sun. I cannot pronounce the Nigerian authors like cover my she wrote Americanah. Yes.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:23] It is like [Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie] I won’t try.

Jen Louden: [00:24:24] Yeah good. Excellent. Excellent. Effort there and I had put off reading it for so many years because it’s pretty it’s pretty harrowing. It’s about Biafra and their two and a half years of existence and then I picked up I was going to pick up Kate Atkinson’s new book afterwards and it starts with I know but it started with people being women look like they’re going to be sold in and I’m like not after Half of a Yellow Sun. Gotta wait a while! I picked up The Overstory and read that I’m like, okay. I think I need to read a fantasy magic. I love fantasy. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:57] You really need something very very cheerful and lightweight.

Jen Louden: [00:24:58] Only books that you read in a day. Okay I don’t even remember that, but that was fun.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:04] Like a cleanser. That’s what you’re doing.

Jen Louden: [00:25:06] Yes a palette cleanser.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:08] All right, speaking of writing and books tell us where we can find you. I would love to know I would love you to plug your newsletter, which I really love this is only these are only writers who listen to the show. So tell us about that part of your life.

Jen Louden: [00:25:22] Sure, so I work basically with two groups of people and that’ll and that’ll lately in the last few years. It’s been primarily writers, but with the new book it’ll broaden out. So it’ll be people who are in there why bother phase and getting help around that that will be starting mid-next year and then I work with General creatives from time to time and You know in the issues of how do I work just the same thing you do? How do I work better? How do I get past my fear? How do I expand my emotional immune system and then I work specifically with writers on my Retreats a couple of my we’re changing Retreats out next year, but they’ll still be three I think that are writing specific. And the virtual Retreats as well and then a nonfiction writers Mastermind and the only way that we talk about any of that is through my email list, and we’re not super salesy we. You know, we’re very respectful of your energy.

Rachael Herron: [00:26:16] You’re not too salesy at all. I’m super sensitive to that and I’m good on the unsubscribe button and I’ve never I’ve never come close.

Jen Louden: [00:26:23] good good good a newsletter is sometimes very writing specific and sometimes more life specific.

I wrote last month. I think I wrote about, you know, being a mom of a daughter who lives 3 hours away from me by plane. So it can be very personal. I write about my own creative process and. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:42] And where can I find them?

Jen Louden: [00:26:43] That’s https://jenniferlouden.com/. Those are dogs are both beside us and there’s a great freebie when you sign up for the newsletter right now actually on the website. There’s a fear Style Quiz that kind of goes it is emotional main system. That’s really fun. And you get a fear report that’s tailored to your fear style. So I’m really proud of that.

Rachael Herron: [00:27:06] I haven’t done that yet. I’m going to have to go grab that.

Jen Louden: [00:27:08] If you go to the website it pops up and if you don’t want that you can just unpop it and you can sign up and you get a great ebook that I wrote It’s all about getting unstuck and I’m really proud of that too so there’s a couple free things for you right buyer. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:22]  I want to thank you for all the work. For everybody I have just gotten so much out of you and from you and 

Jen Louden: [00:27:31] Thank you so much. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:33] I’m just very happy to share you with my listenership, and I hope that you also get to be in touch with him in the same way

Jen Louden: [00:27:40] I love that. I’m so grateful for this chance.

Rachael Herron: [00:27:43] And I can’t wait for why bother!

Jen Louden: [00:27:44] Yay. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:46] All right, Congratulations.  

Jen Louden: [00:27:47] Thank you!

Rachael Herron: [00:27:48] And we’ll be in touch and happy writing to you 

Jen Louden: [00:27:50] Happy writing to you too!

Rachael Herron: [00:27:52]  Bye. 

Jen Louden: [00:27:54] Thanks 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:55] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of how do you write you can reach me on Twitter @RachaelHerron  or at my website RachaelHerron.com You can also support me on patreon  and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at patreon.com slash Rachael spelled RACHAEL and do sign up for my free Weekly Newsletter of encouragement to writers at RachaelHerron.com/write. Now go to your desk and create your own process get to writing  my friends.