Ep. 253: Catriona Turner On How to Write the Miraculous in the Everyday

Catriona Turner is a writer and editor currently living in Esbjerg, Denmark. A veteran of six international moves since leaving Scotland 12 years ago, she’s also lived with her family in France, Uganda, and the Republic of Congo. At her website, The Frustrated Nester, she writes about Danish living, travel, and the expat life. She has contributed a regular column to a magazine for internationals in Denmark, and her writing has featured in anthologies about international living. She also works as a freelance copyeditor and proofreader. With a couple of to-be-completed novels on the shelf, she’s currently working on a memoir, due for publication in early 2022, while preparing for her family’s next big move.

Transcript:

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:15] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #253 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. I am so pleased you’re with me here today, because today we are talking to Catriona Turner, who is a friend of mine, but she is also an amazing editor and she is a writer and she is basically a professional expat. So in this interview, you will hear me pick her brain about moving as well as writing. And I have to say that I was just handling some of her edits that she did for a rereleased book that I’m working on right now. And she’s just brilliant. She really, really is. She’s completely delightful. And in this episode, we talk about looking for the everyday in the miraculous-ness of writing, and I know that you are going to enjoy it.

[00:01:09] So, before we get into that, what’s going on around here? Well, so goddamn much. Holy crap! We’re out of MIQ, which was managed isolation/quarantine. We are out of it, and we are, I’m recording this on Friday, we have been living in Auckland for four days since Monday, and this is temporary. Actually, we leave on Sunday to go up north to a place called Russel where apparently we’re going to have a house which you can’t always drive to. You can only drive to it when it is low tide. So if it is high tide, you got to leave your car at the car park and perhaps wade through the ocean water to get to the house. So that’s going to be super cool and exciting. And I can’t wait to tell you about that, but that’s not right now. Right now, is Auckland. We have an apartment pretty, right between the central business district in Ponsonby. I’ve got a great view of the sky tower from our apartment, and we have just been doing so much stuff. We bought a car. In order to buy a car, we needed to set up a bank account. In order to set up a bank account, we had to do a million different things.  It’s difficult to do any of these things, to do any of this red tape stuff when you don’t have an address. And when you don’t plan on having an address for a long time, how do you get a social security number? or here, they are known as IRD numbers. How do you get that without a permanent address? What you do is you talk the bank into accepting your old address, even though you don’t own that home anymore, and you are above board and you tell everybody what you’re doing. In the states, I can pretty much predict that the, somebody in those government official entity positions would say, nope, sorry, can’t do it. Here, they’re like, oh, okay, let’s make it work. If we do this and this, and then you cross off this and then I pull this for you, can you wait for 10 minutes? I’m going to go handle this. Okay. I’m back with you. I fixed it. That’s how new Zealanders handle things and it’s been wonderful and exciting. But it has just been a lot, a lot, a lot, and I’m not tired, I’m excited. 

[00:03:32] Every day, we get out and walk around. As soon as I record this, we’re going to go walk down to the promenade on the water and explore that area and it’s just been pretty great. Last night, it was for the first time in months, I cooked a meal in the kitchen that we have here. We have been subsisting on takeout before we moved. And then when we were in quarantine, they delivered our meals to us three times a day. So we didn’t even have to think about it. We just had to eat as often as possible, which was good and bad. But last night, I made a gorgeous salmon with radishes and peas in a Miso Dijon, caper sauce, lots of butter and it was delicious. Also, I’m very much enjoying grazing, again, you know, for breakfast might be a handful of peanuts and an apple kind of thing, rather than having a full meal delivered to you three times a day. And I’m one of those people who I just, it’s very hard for me to throw out a whole meal, a hot meal. So, it’s kind of nice not to have to eat that often, to be very honest.

[00:04:37] What else? Oh, in terms of work, it’s been great. I’ve been getting stuff done. I have picked the next project that I am really focused on. And, I don’t know if I’ve said it on the air yet, but I am writing the book, 90 Days to Done, based on the class I teach. My goal is to have eventually a book, at a book price, and then a walk yourself through, a do it yourself, evergreen course at an evergreen course price. And then my hold you by the hand and take you through it, which is what I do nowadays at the higher price, so all three price points in the market for 90 Days to Done because I love teaching it. And I love nothing more than watching people finish their books, especially people who are finishing their books for the very first time and I want to help more people do that. So that is what I am focusing on right now. Hopefully get the first draft done in a couple of months. I could probably do it faster, but I don’t want to. We are in New Zealand to try to embrace some of their famous work-life balance and it is almost 3:30, so my day’s almost over. Cause that’s when I’m trying to finish right now, I don’t think I’m going to finish in the next two minutes. I’ll still have to upload this thing, but you know, I’m trying to not work until six and seven at night, which is what I did in the states. And I don’t want to do that here.

[00:05:58] So, it’s been quite great. I love it. And it just feels good. It feels like the right choice and that is a huge relief and I’m sure that we will have ups and downs, times that we will think what the hell did we do. But right now we’re both really enjoying it. I want to shout out and quickly thank new patrons. Thank you to Lynette Carter and Elizabeth Adams and Isabel Peringue. I’m guessing on that name, beautiful. And Kate Havroq, thank you so much, you all for joining over at patreon.com/Rachael. Over there, you can get all the essays that I’ve written about living your creative life and right now I’m writing about doing something big, like making a move like this. And also, if you’re at the $5 level, which Kate came in at, then you get me for a mini coach, Kate. Thank you for your question. And I will be getting to that very soon. So, let’s jump into the interview with Katrina, cause it’s a little longer than most because I adore her. And you will too. She is delightful. Plus, she’s got that incredible accent. So please enjoy, please do your writing.  I got a couple emails this week from people who say, okay, Rachael, you always want me to email you and tell you how I’m doing with my writing and here I’m doing it. And I love them. You can always reach out to me, Rachael, at RachaelHerron.com. You got to spell it right, but that’s the only bar, that’s the only barrier to entry. Please email me, tell me how your writing is going. Please be kind to yourself, be gentle to yourself. If you’re not writing, forgive yourself for every moment you’ve ever not written in your whole entire life. Forgive yourself right now. It’s all fine. It’s exactly right. It’s you’re in exactly the right place where you are supposed to be. And why don’t you fit in 10 or 15 minutes tonight or tomorrow morning? Don’t put it off anymore. Do a little bit of it. And then email me, tell me how it went. Okay. I know I’m speaking quickly because, got to get off the clock. Okay. Enjoy the interview, my friends, and we’ll talk soon. 

[00:07:54] This episode is brought to you by my book Fast Draft Your Memoir. Write your life story in 45 hours, which is, by the way, totally doable. And I’ll tell you how. It’s the same class I teach in the continuing studies program at Stanford each year, and I’ll let you in on a secret. Even if you have no interest in writing a memoir, yet, the book has everything I’ve ever learned about the process of writing, and of revision, and of story structure, and of just doing this thing that’s so hard and yet all we want to do. Pick it up today.

[00:08:26] Rachael Herron: Okay. Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, my friend, Catriona Turner. Hello, Catriona!

[00:08:33] Catriona Turner: Hi, Rachael! Oh my goodness, the honor is entirely mine.

[00:08:36] Rachael Herron: No.

[00:08:37] Catriona Turner: This was like an author bucket list thing that I was going to do like in two or three years, but you invited me today. So,  

[00:08:44] Rachael Herron: I invited you and I’m also like strong-arming you into being here, just a bit.

[00:08:50] Catriona Turner: Coaxing me, you coaxed me.

[00:08:52] Rachael Herron: So let me give you a little bit of an introduction for people. Catriona Turner is a writer and editor currently living in Esbjerg, I already forgot how to say it, Denmark. A veteran of six international moves since leaving Scotland 12 years ago, she’s also lived with her family in France, Uganda, and the Republic of Congo. At her website, The Frustrated Nester, she writes about Danish living, travel, and the expat life. She has contributed a regular column to a magazine for internationals in Denmark, and her writing has featured in anthologies about international living. She also works as a freelance copyeditor and proofreader. With a couple of to-be-completed novels on the shelf, she’s currently working on a memoir, due for publication in early 2022, while preparing for her family’s next big move. And everyone listening, I want you to know that Katrina and I have spent time together in Venice, Italy, and that’s how we really got to know each other. But it’s the honor has been mine and getting to watch and read your writing. You are a beautiful writer.

[00:10:00] Catriona Turner: Thank you.

[00:10:02] Rachael Herron: The way you write about your family and about the international living, when you made it official that you were going to write this memoir that you were writing this memoir, I was so pleased. So first of all, I want to ask about that. How is it going? How is the work going?

[00:10:18] Catriona Turner: Okay. It’s going, so my mantra is inching onwards.

[00:10:24] Rachael Herron: That is wonderful.

[00:10:25] Catriona Turner: In taking your own words, and I’m inching onwards at the moment because there’s just so much else going on. And the kids are back in school, but only for half days at the moment because it’s still post-lockdown schooling, and we’re getting ready to move and, yeah. So, it’s like little inches of writing. 

[00:10:48] Rachael Herron: I love inching onwards. That’s perfect. Remind me again how many kids you have? It’s either two or three.

[00:10:53] Catriona Turner: Two boys.

[00:10:54] Rachael Herron: Two boys. And how old are they again?

[00:10:57] Catriona Turner: They are 10 and 8. 

[00:10:59] Rachael Herron: Oh, that’s such active ages. Oh my God.

[00:11:04] Catriona Turner: Well, it’s quite a good age actually, because they’re neither out of the most demanding age.

[00:11:07] Rachael Herron: Yeah. 

[00:11:09] Catriona Turner: So they can come home.

[00:11:10] Rachael Herron: And they’re not teenagers yet.

[00:11:10] Catriona Turner: Yeah, exactly. They can come home and play some video games then, and, you know, kind of look after themselves a little bit, but still need to be, you know, help with homework and taking to football and taking to swimming. 

[00:11:25] Rachael Herron: What was it like during the lockdown in Denmark? 

[00:11:29] Catriona Turner: Denmark did it really well because they locked down very quickly at the start. But the regulations were not as strict as they have been in some other places like in the UK, that’s what we were following more closely. Because the predominant value in Danish culture is of trust. 

[00:11:52] Rachael Herron: Oh my goodness.

[00:11:54] Catriona Turner: So, once the government said, this is what we’re doing. I know

[00:11:57] Rachael Herron: As an American,

[00:11:58] Catriona Turner: Once the government said, this is what we’re doing, people said, yeah, okay, we’ll do that. And then the government trusted people to, you know, not go too far and not do anything stupid. I mean, there were people doing stupid things, but on the wall they weren’t. So we weren’t sort of confined to within so many kilometers of our home or anything like that. So, you know, it was boring, but, I’m glad the kids are the age they are, because if they were older, you know, our friends with teenagers, they just, oh, it’s just awful. 

[00:12:29] Rachael Herron: I feel like it’s the worst. Yeah. My nephew, this was his senior year in high school, 2020. And just to be handling that right now. Oh, it’s awful. So where does writing fit in your life right now, today, as the kids are back in school, half time and you’re getting prepared for yet another international move? 

[00:12:51] Catriona Turner: So what I’m trying to do at the moment is, actually I started doing this before lockdown and I had literally done it in my phone, like two weeks or a week before. And then, everything changed again. So I did was, I was thinking about how I used to be a teacher. So, I was thinking about how well organized my day was because a bell would ring and then I could just move on and do the next thing. You know, I didn’t have to make any more decisions, about what the next thing would be, you just have to show up and do it. So I actually programmed a timetable in my phone with, I found a school bell that would ring when my alarm went.

[00:13:28] Rachael Herron: I love that.

[00:13:29] Catriona Turner: And I set it all up with my normal working day as it was then a year and a half ago. And then like, literally the following week and I was home learning. I changed all the alarms to suit the kids’ time tables instead. So, but I’ve reset that up now so that I can sort of divide the time in the mornings between decluttering and doing some writing and the other things I’m working on with my blog and social media. And because I’m trying to keep that going too. So 

[00:14:06] Rachael Herron: Plus, your editing, plus the copy editing. 

[00:14:08] Catriona Turner: Yes. Oh, yes, that’s right, my editing. I knew there was something else.

[00:14:10] Rachael Herron: Your job. I’m a very good soldier. And I have recently learned this about why I’ve kind of always known this about myself, is that when somebody tells me to do something, I do it. So I have actually set up my Amazon echo device to, when I say for it to, for us to work for two hours or three hours, whatever it is, it starts talking to me in Pomodoro sprints. It says, okay, now, okay now work for twenty-five minutes. And then it says, okay, great job. Now take a break for five minutes. And I, you know, it took all the programming to do that. There’s no simple way of doing it. But it’s, I just do it when she says to get back to writing and I’m programmed her to say things like, you know, you’re a machine and then she says, no, wait, I’m a machine, but it’s so useful. If you are a, I’m not a rebel. If somebody tells, if a bell tells me to do something, I do it. So do you found that as well?

[00:15:09] Catriona Turner: Yes, definitely. And the other thing that’s helping me with that is to have an accountability partner and we meet once a week. So at least once a week, the night before, I’m like, I need to do my homework because we’re meeting and I have to tell them something.

[00:15:27] Rachael Herron: Everyone needs as an accountability partner like that. Absolutely everyone who is a writer who was trying to do any of this work needs that. And I will just briefly plug, cause I haven’t said it in a while, but I do have a slack channel called Onward Writer. And you can always find the link at the show notes and the podcast and you can come join and look for an accountability partner if any of you listening need that. Okay. So. Let’s talk about, where are you? I’m just, I’m sorry that you’re getting this double whammy of, number one, we’re talking about writing on my writing podcast, but on number two, I’m catching up with my friend. So it’s really good for me. Where are you in the memoir right now? What stage are you at?

[00:16:07] Catriona Turner: So I am in the fourth reboot. 

[00:16:11] Rachael Herron: Fabulous.

[00:16:12] Catriona Turner: I’m not calling it a draft.

[00:16:13] Rachael Herron: I love reboot. That’s great. 

[00:16:16] Catriona Turner: I started, I started with NaNoWriMo in 2019 and that was a very shitty draft and what I think it’s like brainstorming. And so now I really like the term discovery draft for first drafts, because that’s what you do. You have to kind of go all this stuff out and then discover then what it will be afterwards. So, since then, I’ve had various different ideas about what the structure should be. And I was working on, I was working at the start of the year, I was working on a plan that I had, I thought it was going to be, and I was pulling out different things and taking a note of, you know, what I thought I knew what the themes would be. So I was looking for those things in the manuscripts, pulling them out. And as I was doing that, I came up with another theme, which I realized, oh, that’s kind of my, one of my themes, I should include that. And the theme was nesting.

[00:17:18] Rachael Herron: Yes.

[00:17:19] Catriona Turner: Which is the name of The Frustrated Nester. And I was chatting about this with my accountability partner, which is the other reason it’s such a good thing to have. And I kind of didn’t really want to go into details with her, but she was pulling out of me and said, well, what theme is it? And what, you know, tell me about that. And then she said, so it’s not the structure of your big night? And I said, no. Oh.

[00:17:41] Rachael Herron: I just got goosebumps. 

[00:17:44] Catriona Turner: It was like that because it was talking about each of the different places I’ve lived and how I started off with this idea, I would just create a nest in each place we lived, because that was kind of how, you know, how I identified, kind of before we were moving around, I was like a nester. I liked to have a lovely home and, yeah. So that’s what it is, neither memoir. It’s, it’s each nest, each home as a starting point to explore the kind of deeper themes of losing purpose and identity as what some people call the trimming spikes, so it’s the partner following the expounding on assignment, cause it’s my husband’s job. So losing purpose and identity and not, and then just having the moments of figuring out what I should be doing, or what my purpose should be, and get process of moving around. 

[00:18:41] Rachael Herron: I can feel listeners leaning forward, wanting to give you some money so that they can read this book. So, yes.

[00:18:50] Catriona Turner: That’s what I need to hear as well now that I finished it.

 [00:18:52] Rachael Herron: I can’t, this is like my, this is my catnip. This is what I want to read. And, you know, I love your works. So I’m on record and please, I don’t ever do this, but I am volunteering to be a beta reader. If you ever want one, I would love to do that. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing? 

[00:19:14] Catriona Turner: So, well, apart from just time,

[00:19:18] Rachael Herron: Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:19] Catriona Turner: It’s, which honestly I say that, but I know deep down, we all have, like people say, we all have the same amount of time in our days. It’s how we choose to spend it. So for me, the challenge then is balancing creative life and creativity and community because I, even though I’m an introvert, I get a real buzz out of community and being in, living internationally, your community becomes so important. It’s like your family where you live. And then I’m really engaged in the international community globally. And connecting with expats, well, friends I’ve known in different countries who are now in all corners of the globe, but also on social media. So I get really excited about that. But, so it makes it hard sometimes to say no to the community side of things because we need to sit and work. And especially, locally because your friends that you have, that you make when you’re living abroad, it’s an intense friendship. It’s important and you need them. And its short term, it’s short lived, so you don’t want to lose any opportunities to spend time with those people because either, they’re going to move away soon or you’re going to move away soon, or you’re all going to be traveling over the summer, or there’s only so many chances. So it’s just balancing that. It’s not like if I  was living somewhere for 20 years and I knew I would see those people next month and I could say, it’s November, I’m writing. I can’t see you, but I don’t, you know, I feel I have to find that balance, kind of, ongoing.

[00:21:02] Rachael Herron: There’s something, oh, you already know this, but I will just remind you of it. That the book you are writing is also going to contribute to this community. So if you are saying no to some of these things, you are also saying yes to I, you know, and they won’t understand this, you can’t say, you know, well, Nancy, we can’t hang out because I’m helping you of the future. Yeah. Yeah. But that’s something to keep in mind. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing? 

[00:21:27] Catriona Turner: It’s the words. It’s absolutely the words. I write because of the words. I was never really, I never really saw myself as a big storyteller but as a wordsmith. So, you know, I studied English at university and, yeah, just, I was writing at school and I was writing for student newspapers and writing poetry when I was a teenager. And I’m just, I love to get elbow deep in language and grammar and all of that. So it’s about the words for me. So, when I decided I would write, it was like, okay, well I want you to write because I want to use these words. And I kind of had to figure out then what I would. I didn’t like have a story that I had to tell. I just wanted to use the words. Because when I remember when I was like 16 actually, looking at the view from outside our house so, in the west of Scotland, looking across two hills and locks on a beautiful landscape and saying to myself, I wish I could paint this as the light changes every day and thinking, well, I could describe it with words and paint with words. So that’s kind of what I’ve always tried to do. 

[00:22:40] Rachael Herron: That’s gorgeous. 

[00:22:41] Catriona Turner: So, yeah. The joy is in the words. I’m finding the sentence and the phrase that really fits together. 

[00:22:46] Rachael Herron: And you’re so damn good at it. Let me take this moment to spin over to the thewordbothy.com. Is that how you say it? 

[00:22:55] Catriona Turner: The Word Bothy. 

[00:22:58] Rachael Herron: Tell us, I’ve talked about The Word Bothy on the show before, but I want to talk about it more. What is

[00:23:03] Catriona Turner: I’m so grateful.

[00:23:04] Rachael Herron: That’s because I believe in you. What does Bothy mean again?

[00:23:08] Catriona Turner: So Bothy is a Scottish mountain retreat, a shelter from the elements. So, if you write in a wilderness of language and grammar, come on in and I’ll help you get cozy with your words.

[00:23:19] Rachael Herron: Get cozy with your words and it’s really, it’s really funny for two at a time because I literally, 14 minutes ago, right before we began speaking, finished doing your copy edits for my fast draft. I, you’ve helped me with the re-release of fast draft, your memoir. You’ve just copy-edited the fast draft of your memoir workbook and your eye is so good. You’re the only copy editor slash proofer I ever want to work with again, period. But also you do this beautiful thing where you just, you identify my clumsy phrases, which I have seen a few times. So, I’ve somehow in the back of my mind, decided that they’re not clumsy anymore because I understand them. And then when you identify them and point them out, I’m like, oh yeah. What even was I saying there? And you do it so well. And your eye is just unerring. So this is my Rachael Plug: If you need a copy editor or a proofreader, go to thewordbothy.com B-O-T-H-Y 

[00:24:19] Catriona Turner: Thank you.

[00:24:20] Rachael Herron: And it shows that you love it. 

[00:24:21] Catriona Turner: I’m so glad that that’s what you’re getting from my work. I think, but I do think that’s what we all do with our own writing. 

[00:24:29] Rachael Herron: That makes me feel better. 

[00:24:31] Catriona Turner: You know; I think what we have in our heads is what we know to be in our heads. So the way we’ve expressed it is the way we understand it. So there’s no way for us to see that somebody else wouldn’t until somebody else doesn’t. 

[00:24:45] Rachael Herron: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for being that person.

[00:24:48] Catriona Turner: But, not that you have like work, you know, littered with clumsy phrases or anything. 

[00:24:52] Rachael Herron: It is littered. It is absolutely littered. Oh my goodness. 

[00:24:57] Catriona Turner: You’re an easy client.

[00:24:58] Rachael Herron: Really? That makes me feel a little better too. Speaking of these kinds of things, can you share a craft tip of any sort with us?

[00:25:07] Catriona Turner: So I think this comes under the heading of craft. Lots of people do a version of this. I call it blames drafting. So when I really need to just break through, I kind of blockage, or just I’ve been bored when I’m writing, I was doing something completely new. I will, I have a tiny little keyboard that links to my phone. So I’ll open up every note and then I will turn my phone over. So I can’t see the screen and just type that way.

[00:25:46] Rachael Herron: That is so smart. And I’ve never heard anybody say to do it with those technical details. How do you, so this is my fear about doing this. Have you ever turned your phone back around and it wasn’t capturing?

[00:26:02] Catriona Turner: Once or twice because I’ve paused for too long. 

[00:26:05] Rachael Herron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the screen goes blank.

[00:26:06] Catriona Turner: So it’s like a write or die thing.

[00:26:08] Rachael Herron: That’s brilliant! 

[00:26:09] Catriona Turner: Yeah. You just have to learn again, but yeah, you just have to keep going. 

[00:26:14] Rachael Herron: Another way that I have done it on my computer. And usually I will take myself away from my normal writing space. I’ll go sit on the couch or sit in the car or something like that. And then I’ll open up the document and then I will decrease the brightness until the screen goes black. And then you just write and write and write and you can’t. But I love the phone with a tiny little keyboard. That is so good. Okay. Thank you.

[00:26:37] Catriona Turner:  It’s so portable as well. 

[00:26:40] Rachael Herron: And you can just put it in your purse. I wonder what people think they’re doing when they see you just writing on a keyboard that looks like it’s not connected to anything.

[00:26:48] Catriona Turner: I was cool working with some friends the other day and, what were you doing not looking at anything? 

[00:26:55] Rachael Herron: Yeah, because you just kind of have to look out in space. I have, I think, I don’t know if they’re making this yet or not, but I’m looking forward to the virtual keyboard someday where they’re like, the keyboard can just be projected onto anywhere and then just move your fingers on the desk or it’s going to happen. I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it in the science fiction movies. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way? 

[00:27:19] Catriona Turner: So I was thinking about this and I think my answer is a bit of a cheat, but I think it’s relevant, especially for people like me who are early in the writing career. It’s, what surprises me most is that the best things happen when I sit down and write because I have this voice telling me that I have to know what I’m going to do before I sit down. Still, it’s always there. And I’m always saying it’s not true, but so many days, so many weeks I’ve spent, days thinking, I have to know what I’m going to write before I sit down and do it. But of course, it’s the sitting down and doing it that makes the ideas come and makes the magic happen so that, but it still takes me by surprise. 

[00:28:06] Rachael Herron: Yes. Yeah.

[00:28:07] Catriona Turner: You know, when that happens.

[00:28:09] Rachael Herron: And however many books deep I am, I still forget that on a daily basis. And when the mute, whatever that, whatever people think the muse is, the muse visits me most reliably when I’m just writing stupid, crappy sentences, and suddenly I’m hit with a brainwave of something that I didn’t ever see coming. And couldn’t have seen coming if you don’t put yourself in the chair.

[00:28:33] Catriona Turner: And then the other thing is, kind of similar thinking back to the account, my accountability partner is talking about it because I don’t really like to talk about it, I don’t want to talk about it, I didn’t even want to tell her cause we do a critique. We just check in. I didn’t want to tell her what I was actually thinking because it’s rubbish. But because we had this conversation, 

[00:28:54] Rachael Herron: Yeah.

[00:28:55] Catriona Turner: Just speaking out loud. 

[00:28:57] Rachael Herron: All the light bulbs went off. How did you find your accountability partner?

[00:29:01] Catriona Turner: So we actually met in a Facebook group for expats and we were doing a challenge about purpose, I think. And we were both commenting in these posts and she said she was looking for accountability and I said, so am I. I know it was, it was cool because I know I’ve had this quite a few times recently where you don’t really don’t know if someone just because you’ve interacted online a few times and it’s a bit of a risk to reach out and say, let’s do this thing together because as lovely as they seem, you never know if you’re going to be on the same wavelength. But you have to try these things, but it always seems to work out. I think you just know that there’s like an instinct that you have, I guess.

[00:29:52] Rachael Herron: Yes. 

[00:29:53] Catriona Turner: It still feels a bit risky. 

[00:29:54] Rachael Herron: It is, and it is risky, but I love also that you are not critiquing each other’s work. I don’t think that that is the best use for an accountability partner. The accountability partner that is best for you is the one that makes you do your homework the night before you’re going to chat. Yeah.

[00:30:09] Catriona Turner: So just a few months ago, and I like, she probably knows more about my life at the moment than anyone in this house even.

[00:30:16] Rachael Herron: It’s an intimate connection. Yeah.

[00:30:19] Catriona Turner: I would say we’re really good friends now.

[00:30:23] Rachael Herron: I love that.

[00:30:24] Catriona Turner: It’s a risk worth taking. 

[00:30:25] Rachael Herron: I think that when this podcast comes out, you should send her to it as you,

[00:30:31] Catriona Turner: oh, I will. 

[00:30:32] Rachael Herron: You speak so glowingly about her. Can we talk a little bit about like being an expat now? 

[00:30:37] Catriona Turner: Yes, of course. 

[00:30:38] Rachael Herron: So mine is a little bit different than yours, since neither of us are following a spouse there. Both of us are going because we want to go to New Zealand and the plan right now is to stay in New Zealand, is to build a home and remain there. That plan could change. Like we could hate it. We could decide to go live in Bali or Mexico or whatever, but the plan right now is to move to New Zealand and stay there. But, can you give me a bit of advice? Like what would you tell me? I have lived in this house with Lala for 15 years now. This is, and before that, I’d really never spent longer than two or three years in any place, but always in California. 

[00:31:17] Catriona Turner: Yeah. I mean, well, one of the things I was going to say you’ve already kind of addressed is that it’s never final, you know. And I’ve heard people just, you know, be really anxious about making a move because they’re envisioning the rest of their life based on, you know, one decision. 

[00:31:38] Rachael Herron: I’m having a very big problem with that. The envisaging like lying in bed, thinking like, what will my house look like? What my friends look like, what will the, my cafe look like? But I know that that’s useless. How do I stop myself? How do you,

[00:31:52] Catriona Turner: I don’t think you can.

[00:31:54] Rachael Herron: Oh, okay. 

[00:31:56] Catriona Turner: I think you have to just treat it like, be playful with it though. 

[00:31:58] Rachael Herron: Yeah.

[00:32:00] Catriona Turner: It’s a game, you know. So at the moment I’m envisaging Paris. 

[00:32:05] Rachael Herron: You’re moving to Paris? 

[00:32:07] Catriona Turner: We’re moving to Paris.

[00:32:08] Rachael Herron: Okay. So that is impossible because like everything, like that is the most envisaged place besides Venice, like Venice and Paris must be the two most dreamed about places in the world. How are you handling that? Tell me.

[00:32:22] Catriona Turner: I’m not going to Paris like, in a dream.

[00:32:25] Rachael Herron: Right. 

[00:32:25] Catriona Turner: Like Emily in Paris. I’m going to Paris to take my kids to school and do grocery shopping and find a cafe to write to. That part is the dream, that part. 

[00:32:37] Rachael Herron: I just almost fell off my chair. Okay. Do you speak French? I’m sure you do. 

[00:32:42] Catriona Turner: Yes. 

[00:32:43] Rachael Herron: Okay. 

[00:32:44] Catriona Turner: Yes, we do because we’ve lived in France twice before and Congo is French-speaking.

[00:32:48] Rachael Herron: And Congo, that’s right. So you’ve lived in France before. Tell me, so you, you said something that freaked me out earlier. You said that you’re decluttering. How could you possibly have clutter if you move all the time? 

[00:33:02] Catriona Turner: Yeah, I think my clutter is probably different from your clutter. 

[00:33:05] Rachael Herron: Yeah. My clutter is 15 years.

 [00:33:08] Catriona Turner: We’ve been in house for three years. 

[00:33:09] Rachael Herron: Yeah. 

[00:33:10] Catriona Turner: So, but previous to this, we’ve always moved just with the air freight, just for the new shipments. So,

[00:33:16] Rachael Herron: Wow!

[00:33:18] Catriona Turner: Yeah, we arrive and we are in a furnished place or we buy the furniture. 

[00:33:23] Rachael Herron: We are moving with no furniture, just mostly boxes of books. I think we’ve got about 50 or 60 boxes right now, which is mostly books, journals and some kitchen stuff, because we’ve been told, like, bring your, bring all your favorite kitchen appliances. New Zealand is expensive. But yeah, but so when you move to France this time, you’re, are you going to take things like furniture? 

[00:33:45] Catriona Turner: We may take furniture because it will be a land move. 

[00:33:47] Rachael Herron: Yeah. 

[00:33:49] Catriona Turner: Just so that it’ll be easier. So we may be taking furniture, but otherwise I, yeah. I mean, even before we were expat, I was quite the declutterer. I was a bit of a minimalist. So,

[00:34:00] Rachael Herron: Yeah.

[00:34:01] Catriona Turner: I don’t like having too much stuff, and I definitely don’t like taking a draw of junk and transferring it to a whole other country. We’re not doing that. 

[00:34:08] Rachael Herron: Hell no. Just this, just this last weekend, we finished our, all of our packing basically. And now we’re living in this big, empty house with everything that will fit in our suitcases to go with us and everything else is in the place where we will eventually ship it on a pallet over to New Zealand. What do you do when you arrive on that day? When you start to settle in? 

[00:34:32] Catriona Turner: I think the first days are always about, I think we behave like a tourist.

[00:34:38] Rachael Herron: Ooh.

[00:34:39] Catriona Turner: Really.

[00:34:40] Rachael Herron: Tell me more.

[00:34:41] Catriona Turner: Those first days, you’ve got to explore your neighborhood and find a restaurant and, yeah, that’s a good question. What do we do when we first arrive? When we first arrived in Denmark, it was the middle of a hot summer. We spent a whole weekend visiting the local kind of tourist sites. So,

[00:35:05] Rachael Herron: I love that. 

[00:35:07] Catriona Turner: Yeah. And then you’ve got to do, where do I buy? 

[00:35:12] Rachael Herron: Soap.

[00:35:13] Catriona Turner: You know, soap. Yes. And what’s the Danish for soap?

[00:35:21] Rachael Herron: Yeah.

[00:35:23] Catriona Turner: Thank goodness we live in the, in the time of google. 

[00:35:25] Rachael Herron: Yeah. 

[00:35:26] Catriona Turner: I don’t know how people did this before they could do Google maps, Google translate. 

[00:35:31] Rachael Herron: It helps so much. And we’re you know, going to 

[00:35:33] Catriona Turner: Yes, and social media where there’s already groups that will give you answers to your questions. 

[00:35:38] Rachael Herron: We are in expat group for New Zealand and they do have all the questions. They’re also sometimes very grumpy. But it’s also a very, very nice group of people who are and the thing in the expat group in New Zealand, the Facebook group that I’m part of, basically, they talk about tacos most of the time, it’s all about Mexican food. Like

[00:36:01] Catriona Turner: Okay. Yes. Every, yeah, Americans everywhere.

[00:36:06] Rachael Herron: Really?

[00:36:07] Catriona Turner: Yeah. You can’t get, you can’t get good Mexican food. 

[00:36:09] Rachael Herron: I am assuming that if I moved to New Zealand, I can’t get good Mexican food. That’s just part of my calculation.

[00:36:15] Catriona Turner: Okay, yeah. 

[00:36:17] Rachael Herron: You know? But I am bringing like a whole bag of spices because everybody says, if you want the Mexican spices to bring them great, that’s what I’m doing. Yeah.

[00:36:27] Catriona Turner: But, no, I mean, my thing is always to hit the ground running.

[00:36:30] Rachael Herron: Okay, tell me more.

[00:36:31] Catriona Turner: Because I’ve done it so many times so I’ve learned, you know, to just have this mindset of, because for us, it’s always temporary.

[00:36:38] Rachael Herron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:39] Catriona Turner: Coming to this country for three years, so, I’m going to visit places I want to visit. I’m going to make new friends I want to make. If I see someone in a room of a gathering of some kind of parents or something to do with the company and that looks like an interesting person, I would just, 

[00:36:56] Rachael Herron: Go grab them. 

[00:36:58] Catriona Turner: Yeah. 

[00:36:59] Rachael Herron: Yeah. 

[00:36:59] Catriona Turner: Ask them about their lives. And then five minutes later, will you be my friend? And can I put you down as the emergency contact on my children’s medical firm?

[00:37:09] Rachael Herron: No pressure, no pressure. I mean, that’s honestly the thing that I’m most scared about is, making friends as an adult.

[00:37:15] Catriona Turner: I mean; you don’t have to be in such a hurry because you’re staying for the long term. But treat it like dating, treat it like, if you can remember that, treat it like, 

[00:37:26] Rachael Herron: A long time ago.

[00:37:27] Catriona Turner: You know, a bit of a job.

[00:37:29] Rachael Herron: A bit of a job. Yeah. Dating really was a job sometimes.

[00:37:33] Catriona Turner: And do the inviting. I think as newbies, very often we kind of wait to see what the lay of the land is and to see, you know, who might invite us places or what events might be appropriate. But actually, do what you want to do and invite people to join you.

[00:37:53] Rachael Herron: That’s huge. That’s like the biggest, best tip that I hadn’t actually considered. Decide what I want to do and then invite somebody to come along. 

[00:38:02] Catriona Turner: Because so often as well, you’re the new person in a room of international people or whoever it may be, but actually you think you’re the only new person and maybe you’re not. Maybe there’s 10 other people looking at you and going well, she’s obviously been here for however long and they’re waiting to be invited to something. So,

[00:38:23] Rachael Herron: I’m, I am keeping a collection of the best advice I get because I’ve been getting a lot of really great advice and this is going up in the top five, right there. Do the inviting. Thank you. Okay, let’s get back to writing or reading. What is the best book you’ve read recently?

[00:38:39] Catriona Turner: I don’t read as much as I would like, well, I’m getting better at reading more quickly now the kids are older. But the last week I read it was a corporate, it’s really long. So I’ll just have to talk about that because I don’t think I can remember what I read before. 

[00:38:54] Rachael Herron: Of course.

[00:38:55] Catriona Turner: And so, The Mirror and the Light.

[00:38:56] Rachael Herron: I’ve never heard of that. 

[00:38:57] Catriona Turner: Hilary Mantel

[00:38:58] Rachael Herron: Oh, it’s a Mantel. Oh my goodness. 

[00:39:00] Catriona Turner: Yes. You’ve heard of her.

[00:39:01] Rachael Herron: Oh, yes. I’ve read Wolf Hall. I think that’s the only one of hers I’ve read. 

[00:39:06] Catriona Turner: So, The Mirror and the Light is the third in that trilogy of the Thomas Cromwell novels. It’s the last one. So, I don’t normally read historical fiction. It’s not something I go looking for anyway, to put it that way. And, but when I do, I love it because I can’t learn history from a history book.

[00:39:27] Rachael Herron: Yeah. 

[00:39:28] Catriona Turner: My husband, there’s a whole load of history books over there and my husband loves reading history books and he’ll say, this is interesting and I’ll read the blurb and I’ll go, yeah, I really want to know this history and I’ll start reading in about five pages and I’m lost and I cannot retain anything, but in fiction, not just with history, but other things too, but in fiction story, I can retain it. So now I know who Henry XII’s six wives were, in order. I never learned that before. But also, I absolutely just love Hilary Mantel’s prose

[00:40:02] Rachael Herron: That’s what I was going to say. Speaking of being like arms deep inside, perfect prose, whatever perfect prose is, there’s not, there’s no perfect. But she probably comes really, really close to it. She could do no wrong with her writing. It is stunning. 

[00:40:17] Catriona Turner: And something I was doing while I was reading, which is actually another, maybe kind of a craft tip. I was looking for the everyday language, the everyday words and phrases, but it’s something I like to do just to kind of encourage myself because as a reader. You think, oh, I could never achieve this level of goodness. But every writer has to have the everyday phrases. 

[00:40:42] Rachael Herron: She opened the door. 

[00:40:43] Catriona Turner: Yeah. It’s all in there

[00:40:44] Rachael Herron: It’s in there somewhere. 

[00:40:46] Catriona Turner: Yeah. 

[00:40:47] Rachael Herron: You’re blowing my mind. 

[00:40:48] Catriona Turner: Actually, a lot of her words are everyday, it’s just the order, you know, it’s the way they put them together. I mean, that’s obviously what we’re doing with writing, but when you really watch great writers and pay attention to the way they put their sentences together, and the words they’re using, they’re not using any different words or sentences than the rest of us. They’ve just captured something with those words. And that’s so achievable when you look at it that way. 

[00:41:14] Rachael Herron: That’s a beautiful craft tip. That’s a beauty. I actually might go back to mental because she did intimidate me a little bit. I kept leaving her books going. I can’t, I’m not, I’m not a writer. So, that’s wonderful. All right.

[00:41:28] Catriona Turner: First of her books that I read was Beyond Black. 

[00:41:32] Rachael Herron: Is that also historical? 

[00:41:34] Catriona Turner: No, no, but it’s just very dark fiction. 

[00:41:39] Rachael Herron: Oh. 

[00:41:40] Catriona Turner: It’s about a woman who is a medium and her spirit guide is, well, she was a trigger warning. She was abused as a child. Her spirit guide is one of her abusers.

[00:41:56] Rachael Herron: Whoa!

[00:41:57] Catriona Turner: And so, she’s, she’s living in this and I’m very cynical about mediums and that kinda thing. But I think the world of the novel, it’s just so intense. So there’s a lot of humor in it but it’s also just so challenging, you know, 

[00:42:13] Rachael Herron: I’m going to put that on my list.

[00:42:14] Catriona Turner: It’s just spending all the time with this character. 

[00:42:16] Rachael Herron: She also, I just remembered, I also read her memoir, Giving Up The Ghost.

[00:42:20] Catriona Turner: It’s on my list.

[00:42:21] Rachael Herron: It’s, it’s so good. She this interesting mix of, I don’t believe in any of this stuff and yet, let me talk, let me talk, speak really beautifully about it. All right. So let’s bring this all back to you. Where can people find you out there? Because people really, really, really should check out your, not only check out your blog, but get on your email newsletter list, which you don’t send very often. But when you do, it’s a stunner, it’s a stunner. Your writing on the Venice is right up there with Jen Morris for me, like it’s, it’s incredible. 

[00:42:55] Catriona Turner: Okay. 

[00:42:56] Rachael Herron: Yeah, I know. You’re Scottish. You’re like, stop. Stop it. Stop complimenting me. Okay. Tell us where we can find it.

[00:43:02] Catriona Turner: I need to put that back up somewhere then. Cause they don’t send it anymore.

[00:43:07] Rachael Herron: Oh. Don’t add more work for yourself right now, but. 

[00:43:09] Catriona Turner: No, no, good point. Yeah. So TheFrustratedNester.com is the blog and that’s where you can sign up for the emails. My, I spend most of my time on Instagram. That’s kind of where I live and that’s just @thefrustratednester and that’s where you can catch up and send me DM and see what I’m up to there. I’m on Facebook, but I’m pointing myself over there. I don’t really spend a lot of time there and then the thewordbothy.com for editing. 

[00:43:45] Rachael Herron: Catriona, thank you so much for doing this with me. It was so fun to talk to you.

[00:43:50] Catriona Turner: Thank you so much for inviting me, taking off something from the bucket list already. 

[00:43:57] Rachael Herron: Oh well, when and when the memoir comes out, we’ll have you back too and we’ll talk about that.

[00:44:00] Catriona Turner: Okay. 

[00:44:01] Rachael Herron: You can start preparing for that. All right. Thank you. We’ll talk soon.

[00:44:04] Catriona Turner: Thank you very much. 

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.