Ep. 236: Kathleen West On Deliberately Writing Scenes You Won’t Use

Kathleen West’s novels, Minor Dramas & Other Catastrophes and Are We There Yet?, have been best books picks by Real Simple, Newsweek, People Magazine, Entertainment Weekly, Good Morning America, Pop Sugar, and the New York Post. A teacher for 20 years before she published her first novel, Kathleen is particularly interested in the topics of motherhood, ambition, competitive parenting, and the elusiveness of work-life balance. She is a life-long Minnesotan and lives in Minneapolis with her family.

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Transcript:

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:16] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode # 236 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. I am so thrilled that you’re here with me today. As I talked to Kathleen West, who was an absolute delight. She was one of those people that I just wanted to adopt into my life immediately. We had a great chat and she has this great craft tip on deliberately writing scenes you’re not going to use. And I loved it and I’m trying it actually at the moment. So I know you’re going to get a lot out of the interview, stick around for that. What’s going on around here? Well, if you watch on YouTube, you can see that I’m in a completely different space. I am in a co-working space because my office is blown apart. So I apologize if the sound quality isn’t quite up to what you’re used to. I won’t be able to bring my big boom mic and I mean, I could, it would look really weird getting it here on Bart. But for the next few months I will probably be recording quite a bit in here. I will definitely be teaching in here. Because it is not comfortable to be at my house when people are inside the house, working on it, doing things, painting, and I needed a place to escape. And it just kind of wanted to mention it because this is me taking my job seriously. This is me giving myself a place to work that is quiet. That is mine. That is not in the middle of chaos. 

[00:01:52] So, it was exciting. This is my very first time being in here. I took Bart and took the train to get here, which was incredibly nerve wracking. I did not know my nerves would be so wrecked to be on Bart for the first time in more than a year, I am vaccinated, fully vaccinated. You know, it’s been more than a month, but still on the train, you can’t get more than six feet away from people. Even, I, you know, I came over at like two o’clock and not rush hour and still you’re right next to people. So that was a little weird and I didn’t feel comfortable also getting here was a little weird. I just want to say and honor the fact that anytime we do something for the first time or doing something for the first time and it’s hard and it’s nerve-wracking, you can just walk in here, you know, figuring out the path to get to this building. I’m up on the sixth floor, I’m looking at the Oakland federal building, the double towers, there’s a pale blue sky and light blue clouds. And I’m looking at the Skyway walk over. This is downtown Oakland. It’s really a place that I love. And I love that this is the view I have right now, in this co-working space, I can ‘rent’ or ‘borrow’ privately offices whenever I want, which is actually what I’m going to be doing the whole time I’m here because I still don’t want to be sitting out in the co-working space. So I’m going to just be grabbing these private offices to be in. I’m feeling very grateful, very lucky, and also pretty darn sensible for taking myself and my job seriously. This is what I’m going to be doing when we get to New Zealand after we get out of quarantine. I was super stressed trying to find Airbnbs cause we don’t know where we’re going to be living. We don’t know what city we’re going to be in. You know, trying to find rentals that had three bedrooms because my wife needs an office. I need an office and I realized, oh, or will you just do co-working spaces? And that’s such a relief and it’s just a business expense. And yeah, honestly, I’m pretty stoked about it. I’m supposed to be sitting on the other side of the desk with my back to the window, but why would I do that? Because what an incredible view. So also it’s very bright, so you can see me in all the full glory on YouTube. I usually- there is no ring light needed in this office. I must tell you that.

[00:04:17] What else is going on? Yeah. Waylon our cat, who we rehomed is settling in beautifully. He loves the kids. He’s getting petted all the time and he’s getting a lot of love so that, does our hearts very, very good. We needed to hear that. The move itself is coming along. However, I will say that we are entering a couple of weeks of the hardest stuff, you know, moving all of the boxes that we have filled out into the pod and then from the pod into organizing it onto the pallet, which will go onto the container ship, which will take our stuff. We’re only taking one pallets worth of goods, unless we take two because it just seems like not enough space for the boxes that we have. They assure us it’s all going to fit on one pallet, there are people who are shipping it on the container ship, so we shall see, we can always order another pallet. It’s not very expensive. Thank goodness. So, but that’s the kind of thing we’re doing. We’re doing pretty big and ups-upsetting. I’m using the word upsetting deliberately because it is upsetting the status quo, the normal every day. And I just wanted to mention that yesterday, I had a meeting with my mastermind’s group and this is a group of writers. We’ve been meeting probably off and on for a year or so maybe more. Most of them are urban fantasy writers. All of them- no, we kind of, we kind of run the gamut, but there are a couple of urban fantasy writers and these are all people who have been in the business as long as I have. We all entered around 2009, 2010, and they are so important to me.

[00:06:00] We don’t meet that often, maybe once a month, once every two months. But when I sat down yesterday, we do a hot seat row, you know, just, we rotate through all the way through all five of us. Everybody gets a turn to talk about what they’re struggling with, and what I said I was struggling with was trying to figure out what to write, how to write working on how many books are in process right now, something like five or six plus re-releases of at least six. I know I had the numbers. I think the last time I was on the podcast, but the numbers are high. How do I focus? How do I get things done? I did finish the faster after memoir workbook. The German edition will be coming out soon. So things are getting completed because I am choosing to focus on one thing at a time and getting them off of my desk. But what my mastermind group said was Rachael, for the love of God, why don’t you cut yourself some slack and just move. I love that advice. I can’t take that advice because I’m Rachael. But I can take a little bit of that advice. I can take it for in the spirit, with which it was meant, which means I can understand that I am not going to get as much done as I usually do when I have a home office. And I go there in the morning and I leave at night. Everything is up in the air and it’s okay if I’m up in the air too, I need to remember to treat myself with gentleness, understand that I’m still and always will be a writer. I could do a little bit less. And this is what I tell my students when they are in the throws of the hard stuff in life. And we’re talking the hard stuff we’re talking, moving divorce, loss, death, grief, a pandemic. I’m not being lazy.

[00:07:47] I’m always worried that I’m being lazy, which is something you might identify with in this work-obsessed productivity, obsessed culture. And I freely admit that I am just as obsessed with productivity as the next person, if not more, but we have to remember to give ourselves a break when stuff is hard. And stuff is a little bit hard for me right now. It’s good. It’s all chosen stuff. So that makes it feel good, better but I still have to go gentle. So I just thought, I would say that in case you’re dealing with some hard stuff or some big life changes, if you’re beating yourself up in any way, I want you to knock it off. No, beating yourself up, do a little bit of writing, do what you can, and then pat yourself on the back really hard. Give yourself that California granola hug, like literally put your arms around your shoulders and give yourself a squeeze because you’re amazing. You’re amazing. And look, you’re here. You’re thinking about writing. You want to think about writing. I thank you for spending this time with me. It really means a lot to me. And I’m so glad that you’re here. I just want to take a second to thank new Patreon members. I don’t think I thank them last week. Helen Conway and Rita Zelos, thank you so, so, so much. If anyone is ever interested in supporting me over on Patreon it eally makes a huge difference in my life. It allows me to write these essays on right now, I’m writing chapters of the book about moving to New Zealand. You can always look at that @patreon.com/Rachael R A C H A E L. And a new essay will be coming out tomorrow on the day that this podcast goes live. So if you’d like to read about moving to New Zealand, that’s the place to do it. All right. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. And I know you’re going to enjoy this interview with Kathleen West. Please keep doing your writing. You’re the only, I know it sounds like a cliché. It sounds trite, but I really, really mean it. If you don’t write your book, no one will write your book and we will lose your book or your books. And we need those. We need those in the round. So, do you writing friends. Do a little bit, come find me on the internet and then tell me all about it. I’d love to hear that and happy writing. 

[00:10:00] Hey, you’re a writer. Did you know that I send out a free weekly email of writing encouragement? Go sign up for it at www.rachaelherron.com/write and you’ll also get my Stop Stalling and Write PDF with helpful tips you can use today to get some of your own writing done. Okay, now onto the interview.

Rachael Herron: [00:10:18] Well, I could not be more pleased to have on the show today, Kathleen West. Welcome, Kathleen!

Kathleen West: [00:10:22] Thank you so much, Rachael, I’m so happy to be here. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:25] I am thrilled to talk to you. I’m loving your book. I’m right smack dab in the middle of it. So I’m not sure what’s going to happen yet. So it’s kind of the sweet spot of being in a book. Anyway, let me give you a little introduction. Kathleen West novels, Minor Dramas & Other Catastrophes and Are We There Yet? have been best book picks by Real Simple, Newsweek, People Magazine, Entertainment Weekly, Good Morning, America, Pop Sugar, and the New York Post. A teacher for 20 years before she published her first novel, Kathleen is particularly interested in the topics of motherhood, ambition, competitive parenting, Ooh that’s all in this book. And the elusiveness of work-life balance. She’s a life-long, Minnesotan and lives in Minneapolis with her family. So welcome. This show is for writers and we talk about writing, but I would love to know, are you still teaching or are you full-time writing now? 

Kathleen West: [00:11:16] Well, I was full-time writing last school year, 2019-2020. And this fall, I taught third grade full-time in the fall. So just, I really found myself missing teaching during the pandemic, which sounds crazy, but I really 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:35] It does. 

Kathleen West: [00:11:36] I realized that teaching is really a coping mechanism for me. Like if I have to be like the adult in charge in front of a classroom of kids, like that helps me deal with our realities. So I, it was a perfect opportunity, the woman who replaced me had a baby this fall, so same classroom, same colleagues. I just dashed back in for a semester. I felt like I was doing a great thing for myself and for the kids. And then I was back to writing full-time in December.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:05] Wow. So were you doing on zoom or were you in the classroom at that point?

Kathleen West: [00:12:08] I was in person with them, I had half the kids every day. So 10 were with me and then 10 were with my assistant and then we would alternate day by day and then in November, when everything peaked, we were online for between like the week before Thanksgiving and then until winter break. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:26] Wow! And it seems like, I mean, you have such a cheerful aspect about doing that. It seems like you enjoyed it.

Kathleen West: [00:12:31] I did, you know, I really loved my students this year. They were like a lovely group of kids, really adaptable and flexible. And I love the other third grade teacher that I worked with at school. So really nice to be back with her and to kind of engage in that friendship again and then I also knew I was going to be done. So,

Rachael Herron: [00:12:53] I love that. Yeah. And it had a timeline on it. Yeah. So, when you- now, and so now you’re back full time writing. Can you tell us a little bit about your process? How do you get work done? Are you a morning writer? Are you a binge writer? What, how does that work for you? 

Kathleen West: [00:13:08] Yeah, when I first started writing seriously, not that long ago, like 2015. I worked really early in the morning before school, so I’d get up at like 5 o’clock, 4:45 when I was working on a project work until 6:15, and that was that like, that was the time of day that I was I’m awake and free to do my stuff. So, that’s what I did. And now that I am more flexible with writing as more of a bigger, bigger part of my real career, I don’t tend to get up that early anymore. I don’t, you know, I get up at 6 or whatever, you know, between 

Rachael Herron: [00:13:43] That’s still damn early 

Kathleen West: [00:13:45] I start writing usually until everybody settled, you know, like I might do email or other tasks and then in terms of like binge writing, et cetera, when I’m in the drafting phase, it’s very painful. Like first draft I can- it’s I can hardly do it. It hurts my body, 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:02] Me too

Kathleen West: [00:14:03] Put the words down on the way. So I have to just make very small goals, like 200 words, and you can have a coffee. 200 more words, and you can go on Twitter. If you hit 800, you can walk the dog, you know, like, so just like little chunks and now, like I have a book due next week. I know like the convergence of the launch of my new book and this due date is really my own fault. It’s because of the teaching this fall. And then I didn’t finish by March 1st when I said I was going to so

Rachael Herron: [00:14:31] That’s so difficult though.

Kathleen West: [00:14:33] Yes. But this feels like the last revision, like I can really disappear into that work for hours and hours. But other than that, I really can’t. I don’t know. I’m very distractible.

Rachael Herron: [00:14:42] I am exactly 100% the same way. And I’ve never actually asked anybody who has the same similarity as me, this question, but why do you think that is? Because I’m exactly the same way. I hate every single, I try not to say this, but it’s true. I don’t like first drafting but in revision I can spend, I can spend easily six, seven hours. And if I’m on deadline and the book is due that week, like it is, I will spend 12 hours and be, I’ll be tired, but I’ll be okay and happy. Why is that you think? 

Kathleen West: [00:15:08] I don’t know. I think it’s because it’s so hard to get to know the characters in the beginning, you know, like and it takes me a lot of rounds, a lot of chapters that I end up throwing away until I even know like how they’re going to react or what they’re going to do or to get them to be consistent. So I think that initial work that getting to know them is just harder than it is to just, I don’t know, be with them at the end.

Rachael Herron: [00:15:32] I think that’s a great answer. I think that is exactly what happened. Who is your editor? 

Kathleen West: [00:15:36] Carrie Donovan. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:38] Oh she works- she’s my friend, Juliette Blackwell’s editor and she loves her. 

Kathleen West: [00:15:44] Yeah. She’s brilliant. Yes. I can’t wait to give her this book. I’m a little nervous because I know that she’ll have some great idea that I need to implement that will be a lot of work, but I know that it will be a great idea. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:58] Yeah. And as Julie always says, we have to let our editors do their work. They’ve got to earn their money. They’ve got to think hard. They’re gonna help us. I love that. So what is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing?

Kathleen West: [00:16:05] Gosh, you know, I think it’s that, that need that I have to write so much to get, like, I think I’m probably write 250,000 words to get to the final 90,000 words. And maybe that’s the same for everyone. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:19] No, it isn’t. We’re anomalous. I usually have about 200 to get to a hundred.

Kathleen West: [00:16:25] That’s my biggest challenge, you know, and I- in each of the three books I’ve written so far, I’ve reached a point, where I’ve needed to like scrap it and start over. And my agent has been the one to tell me that 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:38] it’s hard. 

Kathleen West: [00:16:39] Yes. And she, it’s not really like starting over because I’ve already gotten to know the characters and everything. It’s still such a painful moment to like drag the chapters to the trash and then there’s always tears but then she’s right. You know, like she’s 100%, right. This time I’m like, cause my team at Berkeley is like, well, you know, maybe you could have some deleted scenes that you send out and I’m like, oh, I’ve got like 40,000 words deleted scenes for forever, so yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:17:11] I’ve never used a deleted a scene to do that and I’ve always meant to. Jumping back to what you said that you just started really writing in 2015, writing hard like this. What were you, did you feel like a writer before? Is it something you’d always wanted to do? Or is it something you came too late?

Kathleen West: [00:17:26] Yeah, no, I’ve always wanted to be a writer and I was really committed as a kid and I’ve always been writing, you know, I had a blog that’s still exists I don’t write on it as much anymore, but, and I was a writing teacher. I was just really distracted with, you know, I got, I graduated from college, I got married, had my kids, you know, had my full-time job. And then finally I was like, well, if you want to be a novelist, like you better write a novel. So it was just like a stage in life where I was, my oldest kid was six. I had the bandwidth to have like a new hobby and then this is my new hobby. 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:01] That’s, I just want to like point out the really the profundity of that sentence. If you want to be a novelist, you better write a novel. And there is somebody I know there’s at least one person listening to the show going, oh, dang it. I guess I better- 

Kathleen West: [00:18:16] You have to try it. I mean, that’s the other thing, I had been a pretty strong perfectionist for most of my life. I don’t think that I am anymore and in some ways it’s hard to like, let go of that identity because there’s a part of me that thinks, like, if you’re a really hard worker, then you must be a perfectionist. But, I’m grateful to be in this place now because I don’t think I could’ve been a professional writer earlier in my life because I wasn’t very good at accepting feedback or understanding that it’s not perfect the first time. So getting, you know, having my agent say, like you’re a brilliant genius now start your book over. I wouldn’t have been able to do that before.

Rachael Herron: [00:18:54] And I love that you said there are tears involved. There’s always, always tears involved. And then we just pick ourselves up and do it again. So what is the biggest joy you have when it comes to writing? 

Kathleen West: [00:19:04] Well I had a great joy today, so I have this woman, Nicole, she’s a young adult writer. Nicole Kronzer, she’s the author of a brilliant book called Unscripted, which is about teen improv camp. So 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:515] Oh, that sounds fun. 

Kathleen West: [00:19:17] Yeah, it’s really a fun book. But she and I, she’s a teacher too, and she was on sabbatical last year. And so I would go before the pandemic, I would go to her house. She has a studio in her backyard. It’s gorgeous. And we would just sit there together talk, then set the timer, write, and then talk again. You know, and just being started reading each other’s stuff. And now we can’t do that in person, but we do it on zoom. So I’m usually just with Nicole in the morning on the zoom and we just hit mute and then work for a while. And it’s always me that breaks the silence. Like, hey, are you still there? But this morning I broke the silence to tell her I’m like this chapter that I just looked at is really good. I mean, just having that realization, you’re like something in this, this is really good. Like I did a good job on this. That’s my biggest joy, both my friends and the other friends that I’ve met through writing. And like coming across something that I’m just like, yep. That’s good check. 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:11] And you had both of those things today, 

Kathleen West: [00:20:13] Yes. So it was a great day, 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:15] Oh, that’s wonderful. I absolutely love that. Can you share a craft tip of any sort with us?

Kathleen West: [00:20:20] Yes, I will share a craft tip I’ve been thinking about this week, because one of my friends is writing a book in multiple points of view for the first time. And I have done that. For all three-

Rachael Herron: [00:20:31] You’re so good at it. Yeah.

Kathleen West: [00:20:33] I really, when I read the Liane Moriarty’s, The Husband’s Secret, oh, this is what I want to do. So that was a big motivator for me but she asked me about doing that and there was an exercise that I learned in the class that I took from the author, Nina LaCour, and I think it really helps for all character, but especially if you need multiple point of view, because you don’t have so much time to give a lot of details about each person and what she suggests is you list five pivotal life events for your character, you might not see them on the, you probably won’t see them on the page. You know, like it’s like they got divorced in this time or when they were in second grade, this happened. And then write those scenes, even though you’re going to throw them away or at least write one or two of them. And then I find myself being able to just drop in little nuggets in my multiple points of view chapters, because I know all that stuff. I don’t really want to do it when I sit down to do it because it feels like a waste. Cause I know for sure it’s going to be run right, but then I think it pays off later. 

Rachael Herron: [00:21:34] It absolutely pays off. I’ve never heard this tip and I think it’s absolutely brilliant. And one thing I want to say is that I love books that are in multiple points of view and I often write them however, there’s always that moment where you’re starting off at the first chapter and it’s a slog because you’re like, okay, I’ve got 17 different names. Now I’ve got this mom, this mom, this kid, that kid that, you know all, how am I going to remember this? And you made it seem so easy. I was never confused as to who was what? And then, you know, the mom comes on and like all of this stuff and you do it so well. And it must be from doing that to trick, triggers are part of it?

Kathleen West: [00:22:08] I think so, or all that time, you know, 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:11] Cause you really know them. 

Kathleen West: [00:22:12] Yes. And then there’s another teacher that gave me another tip that really helps where you kind of string through a certain thing. Like a repeating image can go from one chapter to the next, which really helps you kind of string along. And I used to do it very obviously, like I’d have yellow in the last sentence of one chapter and then yellow in the beginning of the next chapter. And I don’t do it quite that way anymore, but just thinking about something that will, you know, the reader can grab onto and just have a little echo in the next bginning part, I think that helps too. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:44] Can you think of an example that you did that, that wasn’t yellow? I think that’s really fascinating too.

Kathleen West: [00:22:47] Well I just looked at one today where, two different chapters are counting or two different characters are counting down to an event that’s 39 days away. So one character is like it’s 39 days away and you get it like in a bar, it’s two adults talking and the next chapter is an eight-year old and he’s counting down in his little Bible, 39 days away. So, that sort of think, you know

Rachael Herron: [00:23:10] I love that. That also feels very Liane Moriarty-esque to me, and I just like worship that woman. So, and I can see the similarities in your writing. I really can.

Kathleen West: [00:23:19] Well, that’s my favorite compliment. So I’ll take it.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:23] I really, really, really can. So that’s awesome. 

Kathleen West: [00:23:27] With the, she mentions the bachelor. I think it’s in The Husband’s Secret. And the bachelor of the television show, several characters mentioned having watched the bachelor. And I think that’s where I first got the idea to do that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:38] It’s so smart. Thank you. That’s two tips. That’s two great tips for the price of one. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?

Kathleen West: [00:23:47] Well, my only other thing that I do is, running. I love running and it’s really a similar pursuit in a lot of ways. I really liked the book, what I talk about when I’m talking about running by 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:04] Murakami. Yeah. I love that book.

Kathleen West: [00:24:05] Yeah. He talks about that too. Like the need to pursue something and like the attention span of takes and the dedication it takes. And a lot of times I’ll go on a run and then figure out a bunch of stuff. Sometimes I go on a run and plan to figure out a bunch of stuff and then there’s nothing, but sometimes I’m like, okay, this is it. This is ending. I got it. You know, so that moving of my body is really important. And I think that impacts the writing.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:31] When you are running, are you listening to music or podcasts or quiet or are you just letting it all percolate? What, how do you do that? 

Kathleen West: [00:24:37] Sometimes I listen to a podcast for the first half or a book. I let, I love to listen to audio books and I’ll do that for the first half of the run. And then I’ll switch to music for the second half and when I’m listening to music, I can really zone out. And then sometimes I’ll just go silent, like just this, or maybe yesterday, the day before I was like, no music, just silence, like, you know, get in your head and see what happens. So I switched it up. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:04] I love that. I do a similar thing in swimming and I’ve just gotten, swim buds so that I can, and I have been thinking about like, what do I want to do with this time? Because if I’m listening to an audio book or a podcast the whole time that I’m not gonna have the writing thoughts that I want. So, yeah, that’s a good answer. Do half and half. And what is the best book you’ve read recently? And why did you love it? 

Kathleen West: [00:25:26] Oh man. I’ve read a lot of great books recently. I just read The Chicken Sisters, by KJ Dell’Antonia 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:34] Isn’t that delight. And she’s so delightful too. She’s been on the show. 

Kathleen West: [00:25:37] And I love her podcast also and she, the thing I really love about that book is something that I try to do in my books too, or aspire to, where she has this really fun premise. The book is about a reality TV show, and it is about like this reality TV show and all the pop culture and hype and all this stuff that goes with it. Sorry about that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:58] No worries. 

Kathleen West: [00:26:00] But then you get this like really emotional sister story right next to it. And it’s about childhood trauma and coming out of it. And I was just like amazed by the end that she’d managed to get those two things in the same book. So that’s why I really like that one

Rachael Herron: [00:26:15] I love that. Thank you and I love that Reese picked that one for her

Kathleen West: [00:26:22] I know! Such a great, I love when anyone, from my genre, it gets picked and like, yes, I love to write light reads. You know, one of my friends, when I first read minor dramas my 1st book was like, I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but this is totally a book I would read at the beach. I’m like, yeah, I did it on purpose like, so I love it when those kind of books, which a lot of people like to read when they get the acclaim.

Rachael Herron: [00:26:46] Especially, I think right now I’ve been writing thrillers for, my last two books have been thrillers, but right now I’m writing a light beach read and it’s so enjoyable coming out of 2020, I don’t want to do, I’m just not interested in writing a thriller right now. 

Kathleen West: [00:27:02] I want to write a thriller next to you

Rachael Herron: [00:27:03] You should

Kathleen West: [00:27:03] I need to, but I need to, I don’t know how to, I like, okay you’re gonna tell me how

Rachael Herron: [00:27:07] I’m going to tell you how. This is, how, because you and I are already, I can tell so similar, you write your normal book. And then your agent and your editors tell you, ‘Wow! You wrote a light women’s fiction novel. Now make it a thriller.’ And those hundred thousand words that I would throw out would be like all the emotional fun stuff. And then I would rev up the pace of every scene and add more plot points and tighten everything, but I-both of the thrillers that I’ve written, both of them had just been women’s fiction at first, so great.

Kathleen West: [00:27:35] And where do I put the dead body in or the kidnapping or whatever? 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:39] I have to shove them in there. Like one, in the second, the one that comes out in May, I had to literally find a dead body. It just- cause I didn’t want one, so yeah, but apparently you need one.

Kathleen West: [00:27:51] Yeah. Yeah. I gotta, I’m excited to try that. I read so many thrillers and mysteries. I was having a reading rut this fall and it was really busy at school too. And finally in November, I’m like, you need to snap out of it. Only mysteries and thrillers all the way through the end of the year. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:08] Do you like dark thrillers?

Kathleen West: [00:28:10] Yeah, I like them all!

Rachael Herron: [00:28:11] Have you read Girl A, yet? 

Kathleen West: [00:28:13] No, should I read that? 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:14] Yes. Yes. Go get it. It really like shook me up and like made me think, oh, maybe I do want to write a very, very dark thriller. You’ll love it. It’s great. Okay. Will you please tell us right now about, Are We There Yet and where we can find it, and you online? 

Kathleen West: [00:28:30] Sure. Are We There Yet is a book about Alice Sullivan, a mom who feels like she’s got everything in order. Her kids are getting older. She doesn’t have to change diapers. Her career is kind of taking off and she’s an architect interior designer. And then she finds out that her daughter’s second grade conference, that her daughter is woefully behind in reading. And at the same time, he gets a call from the junior high about her son who has engaged in some really unfortunate bullying behavior. And these two stumbling points really impact her relationship in the community and her standing in her peer group. So it’s a book about, you know, forgiveness and secrets and culpability, and 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:12] And it’s very real. It’s just very, very real and, but real in the, in the comfortable way. Like I want to spend time way, not with like, if these were my friends, I might, you know, oh God, it’s just so nice to be with them. And your voice is so good and so enjoyable. Thank you for writing it. Where can we find you online?

Kathleen West: [00:29:29] I really like to be online on Twitter. And I’m @kwestbooks on Twitter and then also on Instagram at kathleenwestwrites, those are probably the best places and I really liked to interact with readers. So feel free to, you know, send me a little, drop me a line. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:46] I love that. Thank you. It has been such a joy to talk to you. It’s so nice to meet you. 

Kathleen West: [00:29:50] Nice to meet you too. I can’t wait to read. Let’s stay in touch!

Rachael Herron: [00:29:53] Let’s keep in touch. I was just going to say that I do not say this on all the shows, but yes let’s please do that.

Kathleen West: [00:29:57] We seem like we would, you know. Okay

Rachael Herron: [00:30:00] I agree! Thanks Kathleen so much. Happy writing! Bye. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:05] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.