Ep. 222: Lisa Gardner on How To Keep Moving Forward With Your Story

Lisa Gardner is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of twenty-three suspense novels, including The Neighbor, which won Thriller of the Year from the International Thriller Writers. An avid hiker, traveler, and cribbage player, she lives in the mountains of New Hampshire with her family. Before She Disappeared is her latest stand alone novel. 

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

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Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:16] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #222 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. And I am thrilled that you are here with me today, as I talked to thriller writer, Lisa Gardner, who I am a huge fan of. I have been having some excellent luck with reading some thrillers that are just setting my hair on fire. I just can’t stop thinking about them and what they’re doing with these books, craft wise and skills wise. So I know you’re going to enjoy that part of the interview with her. That’s coming up in a little catch up around here. What’s going on, I’m feeling better. Thank you all for your concern. Still no resolution still fighting, still fighting for a diagnosis, but getting closer to something. So thank you for your good thoughts. But I have been sitting up at the desk for most of all of the days of this week. Today’s Thursday, pretty tired, but I haven’t had to, you know, tap out and go lie down from pain. So that is truly exciting. I’m trying not to overdo it. I’m really trying to rest as often as I can. So I know I’m kind of getting a little bit better at doing that. I just put up a post at the other podcast, Youre-Already-Ready, about how to rest when you’re a workaholic and people are liking that one. I am not alone in this difficulty with resting. So if you’d like to hear that that’s at my other podcast, which is a very short hit, usually 5 to 10 minutes of something I’m thinking about. And the most recent one is how to rest when you are a workaholic at You’re Already Ready. 

[00:01:56] And writing wise, so I like to tell you about books I’m reading. I’m always reading something and lately, I’ve been reading a lot since the beginning of the year. So it’s been really fertile reading ground. And I finished, since we last talked, I finished a book called Make Time, which was, which I was told about I’m in, you know, take a drink if I mentioned Becca Syme. Here’s Becca Syme, I was in Becca Syme’s Patreon level, where you get together once a month with a coach, it’s a group session and everybody gets 10 minutes and you get to listen to everybody else talk and you get to ask a question during your 10 minutes that you would like help with. So I was asking kind of just how to use my strengths better. And, the idea of this book Make Time came up and I thought it was a good one, but I was saying to Ellie, who is the coach on the call. I was saying, I just have such a hard time making myself do all of the little things that I need to get done every day. Like how do I get writing done every day on a Tuesday when I teach all day and I’m focused on teaching, how am I supposed to get my writing done? Even though I do have a pocket of available for doing that. And she said, number one, read, make time. And number two, why don’t you do things on different days? And I thought to myself, of course, knee jerk reaction. I can’t do that. Everybody has recommended that I’ve tried that before that won’t work. And then I really started to think about it and I bought the book Make Time.

[00:03:30] And one of the things that happened to me when I read Make Time is I basically disabled my phone of any soul-sucking app. I got rid of Twitter. Tik-Tok, Instagram. I’ve never had Facebook. I, hold onto your hats, got rid of my internet browser. I got rid of my email and by getting rid of, I have a Google phone, so it’s actually impossible to get rid of either email or the internet, but you can disable them. So that if you try to use them, they don’t work. And it has been awesome. I have gotten so much more time back already. Which allowed me to read and finish the book. Basically I did, I took that action almost in the first chapter of reading that book, something I played with before, but it’s working great right now. And I realized that my goal is to write 2000 words a day.

[00:04:25] That’s generally it, when I’m writing for strapped words, I’m generally wanting to write about 2000 words a day. I write five days a week. I don’t wear it on the weekends if I can help it. So that’s 10,000 words a week. That’s a nice, respectable pace for me. And I realized though, and I didn’t work on if I didn’t write on Tuesday, where would those, where would I put those, those words? What if I wrote more on Monday? What if I wrote a lot on Monday? And at first I will tell you I had a migraine. I was on migraine medication and I decided that I was going to write 10,000 words every Monday. And I told my wife that at dinner and she said, I’m moving out. And I said, no, I’m right. I know I can do this. And about four hours later some of the migraine medication wore off and I went back to her and said, I’m not going to do that. Some people can write 10,000 words a day. I am not that person. Once I wrote almost 8,000 words in one day and I didn’t write it again for a week, I’m still recovering from it, but I know that I can almost easily write 5,000 words in a day. That is not a depleting level for me. I can do that in about three and a half hours or so, which is generally about the amount of time I tried to spend either first drafting or revising on a day. 

[00:05:37] So listen to this, my new sched- I love sharing my schedule with you because you listened to this show because you are a fan of processes. So my new schedule is Mondays are for writing, all morning until I hit 5k. I hit 5k early, done for the morning. And then in the afternoon, I could do whatever I want, which is usually like email and Slack and stuff. Tuesdays are for teaching. Wednesdays are for my nonfiction, which is really exciting to me. Right now, I am working on finishing this novel. But my nonfiction always has my heart, things like the You’re Already Ready posts, and my Patreon posts, and Revision of Replenish, which has just been sitting on the back burner for so long. And I don’t even want to confess this, but I have like three other non-fiction, creative non-fiction memoir-ish type books in the hopper. So Wednesdays are going to be for that. And I had my first Wednesday, this week of doing that and it was magical just to be able to let myself play in that space without feeling guilty about not doing the 2000 words of fiction beforehand. Thursdays are for talking. They are for things like this podcast they are for making the question and answer, answer videos, which take hours for my classes, because I love answering their questions Thursdays are for talking Friday is for writing again for the fiction writing. And that’s when I do the other 5k. I’m still getting the exact same number of first draft words written, but in a less frantic harried way, I, in the Clifton strengths, I have discipline. Discipline is very low and adaptability is very low. So once my day gets thrown off, I tend to drop all the other things. I drop all the other balls because one thing got knocked out of the way. 

[00:07:26] That’s just part of who I am. I don’t need to fix it. Cause those are my low strengths. Don’t need to boost those up. If you haven’t heard the Becca Syme episode, you should go listen to it. It’s so good. She’s amazing but what this lets me do is on the, I really love having a goal for a day, but I like getting there in my own way. And when I know that Mondays are for writing and Fridays are for writing fiction, I’ll get there in my own way. Wednesdays are for writing nonfiction. Fantastic. I’ll do some other things too. Yes. I’ve only been doing this for a week, but yes, I am so excited about how well it’s working and how well it’s fitting into my body. And that is because I’m thinking about the best ways for my process to get stuff done. I want you always to be thinking about what is the best way for your process, the way that feels good and organic and natural and not like you’re fighting yourself every step of the way. I was getting exhausted from not only fighting myself every step of the way, but then losing, not doing what I wanted to do and then beating myself up and that is a vicious circle. One that I’ve been you know, dealing with for a very long time. And the more I am able to break that the better, we don’t want to be beating ourselves up. We want to be healthy, happy writers who are taking care of ourselves and understanding what you need to get the writing done, is so key, so pivotal.

[00:08:51] So I encourage you to think about that. You might want to pick up the book, Make Time. It was one of those really fast reads about productivity that actually changed something. I did promote to you last week. What was the other one I was reading? Indistractible. I liked the first part of that book, but the second part of the book was just really predictable. Make Time, remained interesting to me. So I do recommend that one. All right. Very quickly. I’d like to thank new patrons. I can’t remember if I thanked Pam Rosenthal before, but she’s been on the show. You know how wonderful she is. Thank you again, Pam. And Laura Loner, increased her pledge and that means a lot to me. So thank you. Thank you everyone. Thank you, everyone who supports at any level patreon.com/Rachael, it means so much to me, it’s like this little vote of confidence that you put in me as a human being. And it keeps me going on the hard days. It really, really does. Also the essay that I sent out this week on or this last week for my patron essay, it was about me really becoming a poet, stepping back into being a poet. And I don’t, I cannot remember when I have enjoyed writing an essay more. And I am glad that so many of you seem to have really liked it. And if you want to see that one, you could get it for just a buck by going over to Patreon, and then you would get access to like all the 48 essays that are over there that are currently unavailable anywhere else. And I’m always still working on that. And those are projects in the hopper. 

[00:10:20] I have not had any caffeine. I am just amped up on life and talking today cause it’s talking Thursday for me. When you listen to this, it’ll be Friday. I hope your day is a good Friday. If you’re listening on a Friday, I hope that you have been getting some of your work done. If you didn’t listen to the mini episode that went out yesterday, listen to that if you’ve been having a hard time doing the work, you’re not alone, getting writing done is hard. It is just painful. And it helps to remember that other people are going through that with you. So come find me on the internet, tell me how you’re doing and let’s jump into the awesome interview with Lisa. Okay, here we go. 

[00:11:02] Hey, you’re a writer. Did you know that I send out a free weekly email of writing encouragement? Go sign up for it at www.rachaelherron.com/write  and you’ll also get my Stop Stalling and Write PDF with helpful tips you can use today to get some of your own writing done. Okay, now onto the interview.

Rachael Herron: [00:11:19] All right. Well, I could not be more pleased to welcome to the show today. Lisa Gardner. Hi Lisa!

Lisa Gardner: [00:11:24] Hi, Rachael. It’s very nice to be here. 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:27] Oh, it’s such a pleasure to have you. I have been a fan for a long time. So when my publicist sent me the query would you, would you like to have at Lisa on the show? Yes! I really would! Plus, I get an advanced look at your new book, Before She Disappeared. So let me give you a little intro here. Lisa Gardner is the number one New York Times bestselling author of 23 suspense novels, including The Neighbor, which won Thriller of the Year from the International Thriller Writers. An avid hiker, traveler, and cribbage player. She lives in the mountains of New Hampshire with her family. Before She Disappeared is her latest, stand alone novel. I just realized my microphone wasn’t close enough to me, there’ll be able to hear. So welcome! On this show, we talk a lot about process and this is a show for writers. Can you tell us a little bit about your process and how you get all these books done when and where and how much? All of that good stuff.

Lisa Gardner: [00:12:26] Okay. So let’s start by just talking about how I wrote, you know, the making of Before She Disappeared. I actually really love these conversations and I think it’s fun to talk to writers because we all have a very different process. So the first thing for me in art is inspiration, you know, especially 23 books later, where am I getting ideas from? Me, it’s generally something from the headlines, real life. So in my free time, I watch a lot of crime shows, IDTV, all that kind of good stuff. So I either look like I am a serial killer or I’m studying being one, it’s either one or the other, and the keys Before She Disappeared. It was, I’d read an article on BBC about a real life woman who was frustrated by the number of women going missing on tribal lands. 

Rachael Herron: [00:13:12] Wow. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:13:13] Just the lack of resources, and in many cases in her mind, the lack of interest, the cases are dismissed. Oh she must’ve run away. Well, you know, she’s a, you know, an alcoholic who’s troubled. I mean, why do we just write off people? It’s sad enough that we do it while they’re alive, but then once they disappear 

Rachael Herron: [00:13:31] and especially women of color, right?  

Lisa Gardner: [00:13:33] Yes, exactly. And underserved communities, minorities, all of that. You know, sadly where you live in the socio-economics of your community are going to make a big difference in you getting justice. So Lisa Yellowbird chase was frustrated enough to do something about it. She actually started working. She’s just an everyday person, no special background herself. She’s like, investigating some of these cold cases. And I was so struck by that, like, how crazy, right? I mean, I actually kind of consider myself to be a true crime enthusiast, let’s say, 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:10] And I still can’t imagine making the leap to actually working an investigation. So that captured my imagination. What kind of person would do this and what would that life look like to go from community to community? A total outsider? Trying to find, you know, the people, the rest of the world have forgotten. So that inspiration is where I started. And then in particular, I think for the making of Before She Disappeared, it’s the who, it’s the character question that drove me. What kind of person would do this, and it was interesting to me because as I then started to do research on other people who work cold cases, if a 15-year old Haitian female goes missing from Boston, which became the basis of the book, what are the police steps you would take to find? And then I, then I had to learn, well, of course, none of those could actually discover the girls. So what would be the problems along the way? And one of the themes that came up pretty quickly talking to people who do missing persons, and this is how it becomes workable for someone like an everyday person in amateur sleuth. Often if you can figure out who the person is you can figure out what happened to them.

Rachael Herron: [00:15:22] Right. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:15:23] And that to me is kind, almost like the nature of writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:26] Yeah. That’s a good point. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:15:29] Like yeah. I mean when I read that I was like, oh, this is like book, because I feel the fastest for me writing often is discovering who my characters are. And then that enables, you know, what happens to them next? 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:44] And that’s so fascinating because and it’s true, especially in these underserved communities, the police just don’t have time to unpack every single case and somebody coming in fresh can just like, you’re unpacking Frankie as you go. Tell me more about, you know, coming up with Frankie and building her.

Lisa Gardner: [00:16:02] So, once I knew what I wanted to write, I didn’t really have all the answers to Frankie yet, but I’m like, well, let’s just start with how you do a missing persons investigation. So I did some research with retired police. If a missing person happened here, at basic steps they would take and somewhere along the way you start to realize, okay, so the police have all the technology, all the toys. I mean, they have surveillance cameras all over Boston. There’s potential witnesses. They have license plate, reading technology. They could absolutely retrieve Snapchats, which was kind of, I was thinking my teenagers, 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:35] I didn’t know that. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:16:36] Yeah. And I was thinking that would be the way my teenagers could get away with stuff. And they’re like, oh no, that data is still captured. And with a search warrant and like particularly 11 months later. And that actually became really fun for me because- Okay. So like a tech, a hacker, someone like that won’t do me any good for my character because that really is what the police are bringing to bear and it still isn’t helping them find this 15-year old girl. So I decided what we really needed was like a social engineer, like that’s, Frankie’s, that’s who Frankie became. She’s a professional bartender. She’s a recovering alcoholic who was a professional bartender, 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:15] Which I love as I am. I’m actually a very, you know, out recovering alcoholic. And I know so many people in my community who tend bar. It’s weird that it’s possible, you know,

Lisa Gardner: [00:17:25] Among the, my alcoholic or friends addicts I know, they’re like for some, it’s a trigger and for some it’s not. So and that became part of it too. It’s like, okay, so what kind of woman would do this? And one of the answers was obsessive and that made me think of, well, she’s an, she’s an addict, 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:44] That’s so smart 

Lisa Gardner: [00:17:45] That gives you that great obsessive personality and even better. Addicts have a tendency to be self-destructive and to a certain extent, 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:54] And isolating, they isolate themselves. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:17:57] Yes. Yeah. Very much and so that captures Frankie pretty well. She’s almost using like her addiction as a superpower. Like I’m going to take that obsessive and self-destructive streak. And focus it on trying to do some good, 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:13] Which is what I loved about this book is that you’re taking it from, I mean, you know, the, the, the cliché of the hard-boiled P.I., you know, alcoholic guy is so tired and she is so specific. And you’re just such an excellent researcher, everywhere I turned in this book, the research is just impeccable, what you bring to her and what you bring around this place. So tell us a little bit more about that. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:18:39] So then I had to come up with the location. So I started along this question of, okay, who is this? Who is Frankie Elkin and it finally, the answer to that was to do this kind of work she’s so obsessive, a recovering alcoholic makes a great deal of sense. And her super power really is, she’s a good listener. And that really can make the difference. So then it’s like, so what happened? So work with the police realizing disappearing, someone from an urban environment is incredibly hard, actually became the heart of the puzzle. It wasn’t even finding the girl. It’s how she disappeared in the first place. You know, last seen entering the school on a Friday afternoon. Never seen again, it became kind of a fun closed room mystery. So then it was like, where will this happened? So it’s like, you know, you’re putting the pieces together for the novel and I needed an inner city neighborhood underserved, but I wanted someplace, you know, with a rich cultural heritage, you know, with a community and Mattapan, Boston definitely fits that bill. It has a largest Haitian population outside of Florida. It’s known for its Caribbean parade each year. Also very sadly, unfortunately, because of gang violence, as one of the highest crime rates in Boston, it’s nicknames among the locals is murder pan. So it kind of fit that it’s dark, it’s gritty. It’s dangerous. You know, Frankie is a surrogate for you or me. And she’s having to walk these streets at night and, you know, she puts it out, feels like she’s grow in the dark white. She’s standing out

Rachael Herron: [00:20:06] Yeah, well I wanted to ask you about that too, because this is something that we, you know, talk a lot about in writer circles, you know, how do we do this well? You are a white woman writing a white character who is in, you know, predominantly surrounded by people who are not white. And you do such a good job. I’m kind of, you know, knee jerk, liberal, and always looking for when and there was this one point where I was like, wait a minute, is Lisa going white savior on me here? And then the very next page, somebody pokes the balloon of white savior by, by bringing it up. And you do such a good job with that. How did you approach this book with this large challenge to get it right? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:20:48] My sense from the very beginning is the Frankie’s an outsider and race becomes yet one more way. She doesn’t fit. And I think that’s why Frankie resonates with people. When they read this book, she is so human and she is so vulnerable and she does feel so alone. And I think for a lot of people, if you were a minority, I mean, that is often how you feel like no one people- at one point, Frank even talks about she’s now in a position of thinking people see only the color of her skin. I mean, anytime you’re a minority in the room, but I think we can all agree on those feelings of isolation, of being alone. I think we can all agree we’d like to get to a point where everyone is just helping everyone. And it doesn’t matter that it’s a white woman in a black community or black person in a white community, you know, heaven help us we just take care of our neighbors. 

Rachael Herron: [00:21:46] Exactly. So when you, when you are done with the drafting, did you use sensitivity readers?

Lisa Gardner: [00:21:51] We did for this book because it is a big deal right now. I mean, and I appreciated that because I don’t want to get anything wrong. I mean, I am writing about the Haitian culture. I’m trying to bring an immigrant story to life in Boston, the Haitian community. And this is the missing girl in the book, Angelic Buddo. So many of them are on TPS, temporary protective status. Following the Port-au-Prince. Earthquake. That’s now been probably 12 years ago now. Cause their visas were really good for 10 years.

Rachael Herron: [00:22:25] I never knew that either. That was a really interesting detail that after 10 years after the earthquake, the visas were up 

Lisa Gardner: [00:22:31] You’re supposed to go back and at this point, so many of them they’re gainfully employed. They really are the healthcare industry in Boston. I mean, Boston will tell you, we want to keep them. We don’t. So there’s been a series of lawsuits, but what’s it like you have an entire community living on limbo. I mean now Biden is saying that he will give them green card status, but who knows? I mean, they have been living for the last few years waiting to just be told that’s it. Pack up everything and go home. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:01] I’m so, so, so enjoying this. Okay. So once you’ve got all of these ideas, how do you work to get them to, how long does it take you to write a book like this?

Lisa Gardner: [00:23:09] So I write a book a year and it’s three months of this research. So I had to talk to the police, go to Mattapan. Eat a lot of Haitian meat patties for the book. Yeah. Yeah, it was totally, it was, you know, in the interest of authenticity, I had eaten some really amazing food. The things we do for our job. And then I’m big on Anne Lamott’s The Shitty First Draft. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:29] Yes me too. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:23:31] it’s pretty much the only thing that enables me to write is to know it’s okay if it’s terrible. So for six months, I get the shitty first draft. And then I really do believe in rewriting. I mean, I often argue I’m not a good writer, but I’m a great rewriter. So I work with my editor. I mean, still at this age, I mean, I’m at this stage of my career. I’ve given up on this whole concept of ever getting it right the first time. And I trust on, you know, smart people and good input. And I love my editor and I, it was great, big picture comments, you know, like I can tell you what lost here and you need tighten up there. And I already know your bad guy on page 20, which is always a very frustrated comment. And then I revise and polish and try to make it everything I want my readers to, I feel my readers deserve, 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:23] Oh, it’s just a, you’re so good at it. I feel like I’m, I’m learning. I’ve only written two thrillers. The next one comes out next year and I’m just soaking, soaking up all of this knowledge that I’m learning from your work. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:24:37] Plotting. The characters come to me organically, like Frankie Elkin. I mean, I had to think about a few things, but the more I spent time writing, the more she just became real and alive and whole and human and traumatized and, Oh, she just breaks my heart a little bit. Like she’s-

Rachael Herron: [00:24:56] She’s one of my favorite characters in a long time that I’ve read 

Lisa Gardner: [00:24:59] You so want her to find whatever it is she’s looking for. And I’ve loved this notion of this whole anti-life that, you know, normal life is what triggers her to drink. So she has to just keep on keeping on moving from town to town, obsessing over other people’s problems, because if she stays still bad things happen for her. And just, but the loneliness of that, I don’t know, she just fascinated me. But the plotting is real. It’s talking to the police and figuring out, okay, here’s some logical steps or things that need to account for, it’s a lot of days of banging my head against the blank computer screen, going, yelling at the computer to work harder when really it’s probably my brain needs.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:45] That makes me feel better because you make it look so easy, you know, and I know it’s not that easy

Lisa Gardner: [00:25:49] You know what, it’s been 30 years and there’s not been an easy book yet. Back to my biggest advice for writers is just get comfortable, being uncomfortable. Each book is going to torture you in its own way. But that probably also means you’re doing something right. Because you don’t want to be writing the last book again. Right? You want to be doing something fresh and original. So if it’s incredibly painful, good job!

Rachael Herron: [00:26:15] Which is more painful for you, the first draft or the revision? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:26:19] the first draft. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:20] Yeah, me too. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:26:21] Finding my way to the end. Yeah. And there are definitely days I don’t know what I’m doing. I think as a writer, you need to know inspiration, not just what inspires the book, but what gets you motivated to write each day. And I live in the mountains of New Hampshire and hiking for me is a big thing. It’s kind of like the active meditation. Get out. Think about the book problem. Think about the fact that I’m on page 50, a 450 pages, and I have no idea what’s going to happen next and that’s really darn intimidating. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:52] And there’s a deadline coming. Yeah. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:26:54] Yeah. Start walking and inevitably the walking part leads to an idea part and I can go home and actually be productive versus just curse the computer again.

Rachael Herron: [00:27:07] So is that kind of a daily process for you then the hike and then the writing? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:27:11] Well, I generally try to write some pages, at least first thing in the morning before you have really good conscious thought. And then I get stuck and I get frustrated. So I will do something active. I mean, might not be a hike or a little walk or better weather go out in the garden or just, I don’t put it on the house. Something that just lets my mind wander. But I have to be physically moving to think. I don’t know why. As long as it works. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:37] I believe you said when we started that you’re, you’ll pace while we’re talking too, which is actually 

Lisa Gardner: [00:27:41] I’m pacing right now. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:45] Amazing

Lisa Gardner: [00:27:46] But that then often reveals to me one, all the flaws with what I wrote first thing in the morning but also sometimes solidifies my thought, this is where I need to go. This is what I’m trying to do. And yay me. I get to throw out the last 10 pages, which just hurts. It just hurts.

Rachael Herron: [00:28:05] It always hurts

Lisa Gardner: [00:28:08] I cut and save them because then it doesn’t feel like I’m throwing them away, but I’ve never, ever gone back to a deleted scene and put it back in. But just, 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:18] But you have to tell yourself, you have to tell yourself this is beautiful. I’m going to use it someday. I’ll put it safely over here. And 

Lisa Gardner: [00:28:28] Yeah, I think big part of being a liar, being a writer is lying to yourself. I mean, whatever works. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:32] Yes! I really believe that too. I believe that we have to lie to ourselves and we have to have this inordinate wellspring of hope every time this hope just can’t leave us. And I think that writers are a very hopeful bunch that I’m going to finish this book too. I’m going to get this one done. It’s going to be okay. I’m going to figure it out. Can you share a craft tip of any sort with our readers? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:28:52] Gosh, what is, I, so I had to think about this. So when I was writing, Before She Disappeared, I had to make the neighborhood of Mattapan come alive and I feel this is a weakness of mine. Like I am not very good at description. Like I’m not, I love to read books with rich world-building, but I’m not very big on it. So I visited Mattapan and walking the streets, I’m eating the food and I’m trying to think of, I mean in my own mind, start to set the stage and I can’t capture, I can’t capture any of it. And it occurred to me that so often when we’re trying to do scenes or relying on just our eyes, what it is, we see. And really what Mattapan became, what does it sound like? Sirens and stuff everywhere. What does it smell like? You know, you have the diesel fuel and it was summer and they had that city stench to it kind of thing. You know? You know, if Mattapan was a character, is that’s the other thing that occurred to me walking through the streets was a location can be like a person. Like there’s a couple of blocks we walked down that my friend and I both were like, we should not be here. We’re going to die. But then the next block would be like this lovely renovated 1950s house. I mean, it’s like you have the flaws and you have the hope. And, you know, when you start thinking of your location as a character and using all of your senses to describe it, I think that becomes the key to better world building.

Rachael Herron: [00:30:20] So it’s shocking to me that you say that it doesn’t come to you naturally and it has to be brought in because you’re so good at it. And it is something that I really struggle with too. And I never write it in a first draft. I put it in later as a pass basically because I can’t fit it in. Is that what you do or are you actually weaving it in as you go with this first draft?

Lisa Gardner: [00:30:42] Oh, it’s so cute. I can see your little dog opening the door. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:47] She just let herself out

Lisa Gardner: [00:30:48] That’s awesome. I will give myself a pass. I will do often what I do in a book, especially if I passages with the writing is starting to bog me down. Like I’ve generated two pages and even I know it’s one sentence. I just, it’s almost like I’m writing around the thought. I just don’t have it well enough yet. And at a certain point, I’ll just make a note, come back to this and try to move on the story. Like I really like Stephen King. He talked about there’s great writers and there’s great storytellers. I don’t think I’m a great writer to tell you the truth. I get very frustrated. There’s days the word doc just pisses me off. Like it just should not be in the English language, but try writing a sentence, not using it. I’m the storyteller. So when I’m having a bad writing day, when I’m getting really bogged down on the words, you know, I can’t describe this damn street for love nor money. Sometimes it’s better to say, I’m going to come back to that. It’ll be okay. And let’s get on with the story. So again, I’m under deadline. I need to have something to show for it and hating the word that doesn’t get me to the end there again, 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:56] I get ands and buts are the ones that pick me up. I don’t know why, but yeah. Okay. So what thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:32:08] What thing in my life affects my writing in a surprising way. I am a notorious, neat freak. Like my office is very clean. Someone asked if we looked at your desk, could we see what you were working on? And I’m like, no, not at all.

Rachael Herron: [00:32:27] Wow. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:32:28] And it’s interesting. It’s like, I almost need things to be a little bit sterile to be creative. If there’s other stuff going on around me, maybe, I guess just get too distracted, but I need it to things nice and neat and clean to kind of go into the creative mind. 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:44] Is there any, is there ever a time in your process that it explodes? I like to keep things pretty neat, but when I’m at the end, like deadline, deadline, like the week of 12 hour days, my office explodes. Do you have any of that or does it remain neat? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:00] It’s actually the opposite and it’s awful. My phone will tell you if like, you know, two weeks before deadline, this desk has to be cleaned out and organized. Go, go, go! They’re like, she’s reaching deadline now. It’s like the futility closet. We never need, we need to clean this out. We need to organize this. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:17] That’s hilarious

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:18] Yeah, I think it’s neurotic, but thank you. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:21] Did you watch, the Home Edit when it came out? Did you watch that series? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:24] No

Rachael Herron: [00:33:25] Ooh, you might enjoy it. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:26] Okay. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:27] The Home Edit, they just go in. It’s like Marie Kondo, but these two American women and it’s

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:32] Oh, anything about organizing just makes my heart go

Rachael Herron: [00:33:35] The Home Edit it’s like six or eight episodes there. You’re welcome. You’re going to love it. Love it. What is the best book that you’ve read recently? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:45] I have been raving about the Invisible Life of Addie LaRue, by V.E. Schwab 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:50] Schwab, I believe? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:51] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:52] I’ve seen that everywhere, but I haven’t, I haven’t read it. Do you love it? 

Lisa Gardner: [00:33:55] Yes. So it’s a really great high concept book. So it’s like 17th century France. A young girl makes a deal with the devil. She wants to get out of an arranged marriage. So he promises her basically to live forever belonging to herself. That’s what she wants. So, you know, reading, you get this, this desire. I don’t want to be owned by anyone. However, fine print is she will never be remembered, like as fast as she meets someone, they forget her. And so it’s now been hundreds of years and 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:26] Oh that just give me goosebumps. That’s really high concept yeah.

Lisa Gardner: [00:34:28] But no one knows, no one even knows her name. Like she’s not heard her name spoken, you know, like 300 years. And then she goes into this bookstore and she’s stealing a book because that’s how she supports herself because no one can remember her. So she just kind of steal. He can, but she also can’t open a bank account. Think about it. You can’t get a guy, but she can’t be photographed as part of it. Like, she can’t be caught on video. Like it’s all part of the curse. So and she goes back the next day to steal a second book and the clerk actually recognizes her. 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:57] Oh, I love this. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:34:58] And then, I mean, and just how. So that’s kind of your starting mystery, but it’s very philosophical book about the things we think we want. The fine print that existed in everything and everything. Now, did she win? Did she lose? I mean a lot of the books. She’s not sure 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:17] That is lovely. Thank you for explaining it to me because I didn’t, I, I keep seeing the cover and keep thinking, Oh, you know, I’ll check that out at some point, but that really makes me 

Lisa Gardner: [00:35:25] Yeah. It just, it sucks you in, and then in long after it’s gone, you’re thinking about it and you’re in particularly remembering her. It’s such a unique life. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:36] Speaking of characters who are memorable, will you tell us a little bit about where Before She Disappeared can be found and a little bit about where you can be found, because that is the book that I am really, really enjoying so much right now. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:35:51] So Before She Disappeared, we’ll be on sale on Tuesday, January 19th. And I will be doing a virtual book tour that week. So if you go to LisaGardner.com or Facebook (LisaGardnerBks) or Instagram (LisaGardnerBks), you can find the schedule. And it’s really fun, but I’m really, really can’t wait. So Monday night I do a fun radio thing in my hometown with White Birch Books, Tuesday for Poison Pen, it’s like a, kind of a zoom like event that you’re invited to join. You can get the information from online. I’m with Riley Sager, who is my favorite authors, and then. I think Wednesday night is off, but Thursday night I get to do an event for that Who Yoga County Library with Lee Child. Friday night, I get to be with Lisa Scott Delaney. 

Rachael Herron: [00:36:37] Oh, my gosh,

Lisa Gardner: [00:36:38] If you want to set an entertainment, 

Rachael Herron: [00:36:40] Lisa Scott Delaney just last night blurbed my new book and she’d loved it. And I’m still like, walking on air 

Lisa Gardner: [00:36:48] Yes! And you should, you should all, that’s such a great moment when, especially when another writer and while you’re writing heroes likes what you’ve done. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:36:55] It’s not a friend, not a writing friend that, you know, they have to give you one out of pity, you know, but yeah, that’s. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:37:01] Stephen King used my name in a book, people around yard sale characters, and they were picking between a Lisa Gardner book and something else. I walked on air for weeks after that, 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:12] That’s even better than it’s got a Leni quote. Oh my God. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:37:14] It’s like Stephen King knows I exist. That’s enough for me. He didn’t say the book was good. He didn’t say anything like that. He knows I exist. And that’s enough for me. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:23] I would put that on my epitaph really

Lisa Gardner: [00:37:28] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:29] Well Lisa Gardener, thank you so, so, so, so much for being here. Thank you for writing this book. I think it’s important and it’s beautiful and it’s just unputdownable it really is. I try my best to put down every book because I got so many I wanna read. I, you know, and I just can’t put it down. So,

Lisa Gardner: [00:37:43] Oh, yay! Thank you very much, Rachael. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:46] Thanks for doing this and happy writing to you and best of luck, may it fly from the shelves. 

Lisa Gardner: [00:37:49] Best wishes with your next novel. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:51] Thank you so much. Bye!

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.