Edward Giordano is a Science Fiction & Fantasy author, podcaster, curler, off-key singer, pop music lover and avid Big Brother fan. The aim of his fiction is inclusiveness and exploring ideas that have remained unchallenged. Ed lives in Oakland with his boyfriend and their cat, Ripley. When he isn’t watching curling bonspiels on YouTube or obsessively listening to podcasts, he is desperately trying to scavenge words together for his next fiction project.
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Transcript
Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.
[00:00:16] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show. My friend Edward Giordano. Hello Ed!Edward Giordano: [00:00:23] Hey Rachael. I’m so excited to be here. It’s an honor and a privilege. And I thank you for inviting me for episode 200, like such a big milestone.
Rachael Herron: [00:00:33] We are celebrating episode 200 together, which feels really right, because you are my assistant and also you were my friend first and now you’re my assistant and I am calling this the Edisode. This is Edisode 200.
Edward Giordano: [00:00:49] Edisode 200, that’s so fun.
Rachael Herron: [00:00:50] That is so yes. Let me give you a little bit of bio for those of you who haven’t heard me wax rhapsodic about you. Edward Giordano is a science fiction and fantasy author, podcaster, curler, dude, I didn’t know you curled, I love curling. Off-key singer, pop music lover and avid Big Brother fan. The aim of his fiction is inclusiveness and exploring ideas that have remained unchallenged. Ed lives in Oakland with his boyfriend and their cat Ripley. When he isn’t watching curling bonspiels, is that how you say it?
Edward Giordano: [00:01:18] Yes. Bonspiels. Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:01:19] Bonspiels on YouTube or obsessively listening to podcast, he is desperately trying to scavenge words together for his next fiction project. I know that all of that is true
Edward Giordano: [00:01:29] Yeah. It’s like the, well, I mean, this is my bio, so it’s very, it’s very Ed, that bio.
Rachael Herron: [00:01:34] It’s very Ed, but I didn’t know about the curling. I’ve only been once a couple of years ago and it was that, gosh, darn most fun.
Edward Giordano: [00:01:39] Did you play or did you watched?
Rachael Herron: [00:01:40] Played.
Edward Giordano: [00:01:41] You played, nice.
Rachael Herron: [00:01:42] Played. Yes, it was a Christmas holiday party for Lala’s work.
Edward Giordano: [00:01:46] Oh, that’s so awesome.
Rachael Herron: [00:01:47] I played in Oakland at the rank and-
Edward Giordano: [00:01:49] That’s where I used to play.
Rachael Herron: [00:01:50] Oh my gosh. It was so fun.
Edward Giordano: [00:01:52] I love curling. Curling is in like two sentences
Rachael Herron: [00:01:55] Yes
Edward Giordano: [00:01:52] People are like people, like hate, hate on curly. Cause like, oh, it looks boring. Okay. Things that are good about curling, it’s like chess on ice. That’s number one, and number two, unlike football and basketball and baseball, where innings last variable amounts of time and you have no idea how long anything’s gonna last. The 10 ends of curling, lasts the exact same amount of time, whether the first 10th or the 10th end and you know what, I’m- I like really like that reliability, like-
Rachael Herron: [00:02:29] I love that I hadn’t actually thought about that. That’s so true.
Edward Giordano: [00:02:31] Yeah. Yeah. It’s- it’s, it’s up and coming
Rachael Herron: [00:02:35] Also, you get to wear a sweater. Like I am the biggest knitter you know, probably, and like, I don’t get to wear my sweaters in California, but if you cur- let’s go curling sometime. Can we do that?
Edward Giordano: [00:02:45] Oh, I would love to go curling, the Bay area, curling club is currently building a dedicated curling rink.
Rachael Herron: [00:02:54] I was. I heard that. Oh my goodness
Edward Giordano: [00:02:55] So it’s going to be super exciting. So I can’t, I can’t wait.
Rachael Herron: [00:02:59] The writers listening, you’re like, what? But I will tell everybody listening. This is Ed. Ed, this is said with all the love of my heart and as a person who sees you and appreciates you, you are the biggest weirdo, in the best, most flagrantly intelligent. May I say genius ways. Like you get obsessed with strange things and then bring them to life. In a particular way. Have you been told that your whole life?
Edward Giordano: [00:03:28] I have been told I’m a bit odd, but certainly, I think, I think it stems from like, I don’t believe in guilty pleasures, I just believe in pleasures,
Rachael Herron: [00:03:38] I love that
Edward Giordano: [00:03:39] So it, that’s where, that’s where it all begins from and yeah, I just, I love what I love and I’m unashamed about it, period.
Rachael Herron: [00:03:47] You know your stuff, you know and you have that mind like a steel trap with mine is a sieve. Like once you hear something, you seem to retain it.
Edward Giordano: [00:03:57] I tried to both retain it and apply it to my life
Rachael Herron: [00:04:00] That’s so amazing.
Edward Giordano: [00:04:01] I try. There’s a, there’s a, there’s an emphasis on the word try. I don’t always succeed, but it’s an attempt.
Rachael Herron: [00:04:07] Okay. So listeners, I want to take you back in my friendship with Ed. I think we first met at City Art, City Arts and Lectures, and it was one of those amazing moments when somebody comes up to you as a writer and say, are you Rachael Heron? You know? I was like, Oh yes, I am. And you had been listening to my podcast, and then we went out to breakfast with another friend of ours named Rachel, who’s a friend of yours and, and we formed this friendship and every time we would go out, you would say to me, 15 genius things I should be doing with my business. And I would say 15 times, Oh my gosh. I wish I could do that. I wish I had the time to do that. I wish I knew how to do that. And because you, you have the, one of the widest knowledge bases, I know of the publishing industry, especially indie publishing, you just get it. You’ve listened to everything, you know, everything. And so there was a time it was about a year, no six months ago? That you lost your job.
Edward Giordano: [00:05:01] I was- it was October of last year.
Rachael Herron: [00:05:04] Oh my God. So almost a year,
Edward Giordano: [00:05:05] Almost a year, yes.
Rachael Herron: [00:05:07] So, again, in me being an asshole, like we were out at breakfast and he said, you know, I just lost my job yesterday. And I said, I think I managed to say, I’m so sorry. Will you work for me?
Edward Giordano: [00:05:20] Rachael, I just have to, I have to be so honest. Like you, like the day before I lost my job in a swirl of circumstances that, still sort of haunt my nightmares, but yeah, but beyond, the fact that the next day we had this lunch planned or this brunch planned, and you offered me a job to be your assistant, it’ll like, it like made everything feel right. And like that I, I can’t overstate that enough like that it was so I, I love, I love working for you and I hope I’ve been, I hope, I hope I provide you more data than you’ve ever dreamed of having
Rachael Herron: [00:06:01] I have so much data about my sales and about the ads that you get me. You are the BookBub whisperer. I have had, is it eight now? Is this my seventh, or eight?
Edward Giordano: [00:06:10] Seventh.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:12] Seven BookBub’s since you started working for me, you just, I don’t know, what
Edward Giordano: [00:06:15] Well, I’m pretty tenacious, like pre- I’m pretty damn tenacious and I feel like I have a hidden dialogue with the BookBub people.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:12] I do too
Edward Giordano: [00:06:15] I’m like, I know what you want. I could tell and you’re gonna give it to me.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:29] You caress their brows as they’re falling and they say, okay, Ed, but the one thing and, and, and, and folks right now, Ed has enough roster. He has enough clientele. So unless you want to woo him away from me, which you can try, I’m not trying to pimp them out right now. But I will say that like, as this is a mutual admiration society right now, like you help me sleep better at night because you have helped me do the things that I always wanted to do. And what you have done is what we talk about in the indie world, as everybody wants to do, which is making more products out of the products that you have. Like you, you nag me until I get you what you want, and it usually takes a lot longer than you wanted to. Like, for example, right now, so for a fast draft your memoir, you are getting ready to produce a workbook for me. All I have to do is come up with questions and I haven’t done that yet, but after that you handle the rest of it. You there, and this is why I didn’t have an assistant for so long. I tried several times. I tried people that I liked, you know, hiring virtually and I never felt that level of trust, where I would just like give them the keys to all of the kingdoms. Like you could move to Baja right now on, you know, selling things, getting, as you probably have the passwords to my bank account, you have the passwords to everything. You upload my books, you change everything and I trust you completely. And
Edward Giordano: [00:07:56] I appreciate that so much
Rachael Herron: [00:07:58] You helped me so much. You really, really do because I’m not good at this kind of thing. So the fact that you helped me is amazing. Plus, I want some help with Facebook ads soon.
Edward Giordano: [00:08:08] Thank you. Well, I hope. Yeah. I, what I, what I tried to do in my head is like clear off your plate. Cause it seems like there’s like all the silly busy work that I actually don’t mind. Cause I, cause that’s like my podcast music listening time
Rachael Herron: [00:08:25] Oh really? That’s awesome
Edward Giordano: [00:08:27] So I don’t, I actually don’t mind this busy work cause it’s like, it’s- it’s like enter the d-
Rachael Herron: [00:08:32] Yeah, it’s clicking and
Edward Giordano: [00:08:32] Moving, dragging, and updating and uploading and waiting and praying and all that, all the sort of things. And you, yeah, so it’s I actually don’t mind it. I, I find that I, I’m not, I can’t be on 16 hours a day mentally. I actually,
Rachael Herron: [00:08:32] No, I can’t. Yeah
Edward Giordano: [00:08:32] I actually very much require like, I call it cultural absorption time.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:32] I love that.
Edward Giordano: [00:08:32] It’s like, it’s like a, it’s like a, it’s like a bad, or it’s like a, it’s like a rebranding of bingeing or just like, just like, Oh, I’m not, I’m not listening to this album or watching an entire season of TV this weekend. I’m culturally absorbing right now,
Rachael Herron: [00:09:15] which is so important to us as, as writers and artists like no lie. It is one of those things. I think, I, I think I told you that, you know, I have this guilty. I know it’s not a guilty pleasure cause there are no guilty pleasures, but I will watch a Real Housewife, I really will and Lala was reading the next book, Hush Little Baby and it’s set in LA and I like Beverly Hills; Real Housewives. And she said to me, I can see them in there. And I’m like, I know I have been telling you it’s research.
Edward Giordano: [00:09:42] That’s awesome.
Rachael Herron: [00:09:43] But you just have such a, you have a beautiful way of living life and you have a beautiful, you’re just, you’re just a beautiful person. And I’m really, really thankful that you’re in my life
Edward Giordano: [00:09:50] As to you, you’re a beautiful person.
Rachael Herron: [00:09:53] And we worked so well together. Like I don’t, I can’t even imagine us having an argument, besides
Edward Giordano: [00:09:59] Not yet. Not yet
Rachael Herron: [00:10:00] You’re always right. You are always right.
Edward Giordano: [00:10:02] I’m not always right. I’m not always right. Sometimes. Well, I’m not I’m, I’m not, I mean, I’m not gonna say that I’m wrong, but I’m gonna say that it’s I’m I might be wrong for what you want to do with yourself, with your career
Rachael Herron: [00:10:15] You’re an idea generation machine and you do, you- you’re like one of those tennis ball machines. It’s just like wah, wah, wah, wah. And I go, that’s a good one. Not for me. Not for me. Not for me. Yes. I can’t believe I never thought of that. You know? So that’s amazing. So, but let’s talk about you and your writing, your writing. That is what is important to us. And your first book came out this year. Congratulations! We’re going to deviate from the normal questions cause it’s just you and me here. What was that like? What was it like having your first book out with that incredible cover?
Edward Giordano: [00:10:48] Well I have one in case
Rachael Herron: [00:10:52] Good. It’s so gorgeous. Ghostly Chords
Edward Giordano: [00:10:55] Ghostly Chords, covered by the amazing Tom, Tommy Arnold, who was on your podcast episode.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:01] That was a great episode
Edward Giordano: [00:11:03] Yeah. I insisted that he had to come on. It’s like, like his podcast, like well, you, what you realize in that episode, what people do with painting and with drawing is what writers do with writing.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:15] All the same
Edward Giordano: [00:11:16] And I just wanted to bring that to light. What was that like? Well, it was first off, it was super amazing. I know so many people want to write a book. And don’t actually put one out. So I’m glad I was able to do it and something that didn’t quite, I guess in my head, I was like, Oh, I have this super stupendous cover. People say that the book is good. Which is great, but it
Rachael Herron: [00:11:43] It is good. Lovely.
Edward Giordano: [00:11:44] but it, novellas are damn hard to sell.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:49] Yeah. How many words is it? Was it 30, 25,000?
Edward Giordano: [00:11:53] it’s 23-ish
Rachael Herron: [00:11:54] Okay
Edward Giordano: [00:11:55] 23,000 and I don’t begrudge me with that length because I find, okay, funny story. I try to write two short stories, real this year and they both ended up being one, a novelette and one in novella. I’m like, like the novella length is like, such a perfect television episode length of story. And I feel like all my years of television viewing has internalized that,
Rachael Herron: [00:12:23] Absolutely
Edward Giordano: [00:12:24] like that like length of thing manuscripts, and I just, I just need to start accepting that I need to be a bit like releasing a novella at 29. Yes, the big publishers are doing it. I’m looking at Thor, I’m looking at Dawn, like, yeah, the big publishers can pull that off and they can sometimes work, but even they run into the situation where they have this sort of bundling novellas together to make it work. So it’s, it’s, it’s like a beautiful length. And one of the most successful novellas of all time is, A Christmas, the, one where Scrooge is, introduced all the ghosts.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:05] A Christmas Story?
Edward Giordano: [00:13:06] It’s like a Christmas Story-
Rachael Herron: [00:13:08] I cannot-
Edward Giordano: [00:13:10] It’s like A Christmas Carol!
Rachael Herron: [00:13:11] Christmas Carol
Edward Giordano: [00:13:12] Christmas Carol. That’s like the most famous novella in the world and the most successful and no one talks about that book, like, Oh, it’s a novella I wish it was longer. People did buy it and they read it over and over again, they’d get the audio book. They listened to it every Christmas, that sort of thing. Like I’m like, nothing’s wrong with a novella format except the audience isn’t ready to accept it full-heartedly which is like, and then the, and then the thing I was missing was the people that are really doing successful novellas are people that have novellas that are tie into series.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:45] Which is what you keep trying to talk me into doing
Edward Giordano: [00:13:48] Which I keep trying to talk Rachael doing, or they’re they have a big marketing push from a big label, or they’re releasing three to four novellas every three months.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:57] Right. Right.
Edward Giordano: [00:13:58] So it’s, so it’s just a standalone novella. I don’t regret the decision, but it was not the wisest marketing decision, that being said, I, you have to get your feet wet and you gotta, and I still think there’s a lot of potential with it. I’m actually working on a prequel short story. And then post cool short story and I’m going to bundle that
Rachael Herron: [00:13:57] Yes
Edward Giordano: [00:13:58] Into a re-release of ghosted chords so that it’s a, it’s technically a true story novella, short story, but it’s, it’s but it it’ll look like a novel and it could sell it as a novel
Rachael Herron: [00:14:34] and it- it’ll have the page length and you can call it a collection, which people like, you know, it’s like kind of like a box set. So I think that’s a great idea. I think that’s fabulous.
Edward Giordano: [00:14:41] So, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I learned so much and I feel like,
Rachael Herron: [00:14:45] and you’re a published author now, like that,
Edward Giordano: [00:14:46] I’m a published author, there’s like so much you, so much you don’t know until you do it once. So, and I feel like I learned so much more about my writing style like something that I thought I was, I thought it was like, Oh, I’m an outline writer. Like, that’s my, that’s my strength. But then what I discovered in this most recent version and of course this is probably bound to change, but in my current version, I find my setup is I, I, I start with, I just like write my idea out and like, try to sketch out some major plot points and some characters that I’m interested in and then I try to as quickly as possible to find the theme of the story.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:29] A lot of writers don’t do that until revision. And it’s so helpful if you do it ahead of time.
Edward Giordano: [00:15:33] Yeah. Yes. And then I, and then I have, and by the time I’m done with my brainstorming, I have the beginning and the end of the story. And I know the theme and then I let everything that enter that story, make sure it’s a spoke on the wheel of that theme, connected back to the center and the people who have read the two stories where I, where I kept, where I was like, I knew that theme before I even started writing or basically like barely after a page, then I was like, Oh, then people have been saying like, Oh, like nothing, nothing feels like out of left field because it’s still dealing with the core message of the story.
Rachael Herron: [00:16:12] I kind of think of and not to trivialize it, but I kind of think of theme is like the Instagram filter of our books. Like it, it is, it is the way, it’s the view. It’s the lens with which we view everything that happens inside the book. And can you tell us what the theme of yours is?
Edward Giordano: [00:16:28] Well, I’ve discovered that for the Ghostly Chords Series, it’s, it’s all about, it’s all about the sister-sister relationship. It’s all about Darren and Glen and how that evolves and then in my new story, it’s all about, it’s all about like nostalgia and wanting to bring it back, but not bring it back in the same way, but bringing it back in a better way. That’s like, that’s the, so I want to give you the premise of my, I’m hoping to release this novella this year. Yes, I do really hope to play release this year. I want to tell you a little about it. It’s, it all came from so I do, I think I’ve told this a little bit to you, but I’ll for the audience’s benefit, I don’t know if you know about the gross michelle banana?
Rachael Herron: [00:17:11] No, but I love this story. Please tell it, I love it
Edward Giordano: [00:17:14] Okay so, the gross michelle banana is a variety of banana that kind of tastes like banana, luffy tuffy
Rachael Herron: [00:17:21] which is like one of my favorite flavors ever.
Edward Giordano: [00:17:23] And it went almost extinct. You could actually still buy; you could still buy five bananas for $60 from the farmer in Florida.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:33] Oh my God. I thought it was extinct.
Edward Giordano: [00:17:35] It’s- it’s, it’s almost, it’s very endangered.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:38] So that banana flavor that we enjoyed as children, that was the flavor of that banana?
Edward Giordano: [00:17:42] Yeah. That variety of banana. And then I, there was a musical song was that was like, that’s something that went something to the tune of, there is no bananas at the food stand, something, something
Rachael Herron: [00:17:54] We have no bananas today.
Edward Giordano: [00:17:56] Yeah. We have no bananas. And then that’s, that’s in reference to the gross michelle sweet and like sweet and meaty meat, meat. Maybe meaty’s the right word. Sweet and meaty banana that’s gone extinct or almost exclusively extinct.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:08] Yeah
Edward Giordano: [00:18:09] So. So then I was like, okay, how do I use this as a, and this is something that Tommy Arnold talks about on his podcast, Black, White, Gray, is using, real life scenarios and what he actually means by taking it. He means taking a photo and using that to figure out how light works. But I took that to me like, Oh, you use real life scenarios and how would that apply to a different scenario. So, so there was, there was the musical about the bananas in my story, the plums have gone extinct due to an event and there’s- I have like documentaries about the missing plums, like, like real crime documentaries about plums dying and it’s all it all hinges around the main character tried to bring plums back and the memory, the memory that her grandmother told her of the, of what plums tasted like. And then she finally gets a hold of a plum and is disappointed and she’s like, I could recreate this exactly as is, but I should recreate it as the memory I felt when I was told about it would be like, so then yeah. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s super fun. It’s a globetrotting story and takes place in like one, two, three, four, four or five countries. I was like, okay. It was my, it was my way of traveling and COVID-19
Rachael Herron: [00:19:33] And it’s a story, not a novel. This field, it’s a novel itself too longer
Edward Giordano: [00:19:39] Oh, it could, yeah, it could be longer, but it’s, it’s a, it’s a novella and I think it packs a punch when it, when I, well, when it’s all done and edited, I think it will pack much.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:48] Have you ever had one of those bananas from Florida?
Edward Giordano: [00:19:51] No I’ve not.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:48] We should go.
Edward Giordano: [00:19:51] The closer I’ve had, the- I was tempted. I was tempted by that. I was 10. I was like $60 for five bananas. That’s okay. I mean, they are endangered.
Rachael Herron: [00:20:06] Okay. So now, what is your process when it comes to writing? When do you get your writing done? Cause I know you have more clients than just me now. So like how difficult is it to get that work done?
Edward Giordano: [00:20:17] This is- this is the weak part in my story. I tend to write on Tuesdays and Thursdays, which is not great. So I wrote with my other friend, Rachel, on Tuesday night, and I write with you on Thursdays.
Rachael Herron: [00:20:31] Yeah
Edward Giordano: [00:20:32] And for some reason I did write more pre COVID, but since the pandemic I’ve been just like, I don’t know, I just don’t want to do it.
Rachael Herron: [00:20:40] It’s hard
Edward Giordano: [00:20:41] Like I always find a reason not to I’m like, Oh, this is happening or that’s happening. Or I, I didn’t drink enough water today. You know, I didn’t exercise today. Not that that’s different than most other days during the pandemic.
Rachael Herron: [00:20:56] So what is, what, alright, I want to go with my normal questions. What is your favorite part of writing? What is the part that brings you the most joy?
Edward Giordano: [00:21:08] My favorite part of writing is probably just the excitement I get when I could figure out us like a unique story that no one else will tell. And this is, and this is something that, that I was struggling with. So I’m of two minds, like, okay, so there’s this one mind where you are unique and your story, your stories are a confluence of your life history and what you culturally absorbed in your life and events in your life. So that’s, that’s so you’re the only person that could write that. That’s- that’s the apple one hand, the apple on the other hand is if you write it and you like it, other people will like it, like, hold on. These, these seem like opposite apples like this one’s like, like, yes, you are unique snowflake special. And this one’s like, well, if you write it, other people are going to like it because you like it. So can you, can you help cross a hybrid that divide for me?
Rachael Herron: [00:22:13] Well, I think that the joy that you put out into the world with that, because you, I mean, every single person listening just got deeply invested in that banana. Right? And they probably hadn’t heard about it before. I don’t think, I think I had heard it mentioned, but I’d never heard it detailed like you had told me about and the way that you’re going to discuss these plums on the page with other people, it’s that, it’s that Stephen King telepathy thing that he talks about. You are creating something and then you are putting it later into somebody else’s mind. And that is beautiful. And if you look back at your bio, that whole idea that you have on inclusion, on bringing everyone into the fold. That’s part of that kind of goes along with those two apples. Right?
Edward Giordano: [00:22:53] True. True.
Rachael Herron: [00:22:56] Can you, and I didn’t prep you for this cause I thought I told you we were just going to be gabbing, but can you tell us any craft tip that helps you out while you’re writing?
Edward Giordano: [00:23:05] My craft tip I would be, I think this is going to sound very silly and a little pedantic. But I’m gonna say this
Rachael Herron: [00:23:12] Yeah, I love both of those things.
Edward Giordano: [00:23:14] I say be bold with your writing in your, especially in your first drafts, especially in your first draft, like, like, like if you feel like this is like, I don’t know. I like this season doesn’t is like moving slow and it’s not really working. And I don’t know why. Just, just do a thing where you like, summarize it in a paragraph,
Rachael Herron: [00:23:37] You know, that you just said season, this season.
Edward Giordano: [00:23:39] Oh, what did I say? Oh yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:23:42] Because you do, no, I really love that you know that about yourself, that you think about these episodically.
Edward Giordano: [00:23:47] No. That’s so funny. No, I didn’t even know. Yeah. I do think about it episodically, but if you, if you, if you’re bored, just like, let it, let it go forward. And also something that also, I had a, like, it’s like the most silly recent discovery ever, but sometimes you just need to, like, for reasons that you don’t understand, you just need to write, you just need to write 17 horrible pages
Rachael Herron: [00:24:10] Yes
Edward Giordano: [00:24:12] for it to be summarized into two damn paragraphs.
Rachael Herron: [00:24:13] Isn’t that the most annoying thing ever?
Edward Giordano: [00:24:16] but you couldn’t have written the two paragraphs if you didn’t do the 17 pages.
Rachael Herron: [00:24:19] Exactly
Edward Giordano: [00:24:20] This, this is something I told you about, from Americanah, by Chimamanda Adichie Ngozi that I really loved. One of the characters is a party and this character’s like, Oh, you’re gonna do this when you start working for me, you’re going to do this. You’re gonna go fly here. You’re going to have clients here. And then he’s going through a hall, his whole, like a monologue about how his business would be if he, if he was employed by him. And at the last line of that paragraph was- and that’s how it went. And then, then all of a sudden we’re like, jumped ahead, three, three months later, he’s like in with all these clients he’s working for this, for this person that you just met at this party, I’m like, damn,
Rachael Herron: [00:24:49] What a brilliant line
Edward Giordano: [00:25:00] That is so brave. This is what it was like, it was brave.
Rachael Herron: [00:25:03] It’s brave that I know that when we were talking about it, I have this idea that when she wrote it, it was, she put all of it in there. Like, she probably had 17 pages of a job and flying around and doing all the job and then it wasn’t working and it was boring and she got, and that’s the way it went.
Edward Giordano: [00:25:21] That’s the way it went I’m like, damn, that’s just so brave.
Rachael Herron: [00:25:26] It’s brilliant. Yeah
Edward Giordano: [00:25:27] And then, and then my other tip that I would probably bring is like, think about I would say, like, get really interested in a well there’s like to Ed thing. Get really interested in a unique history that people don’t know about and try to apply it to whatever your scenario is. Like I think something that was super successful for Emily St. John Mandel with her Station Eleven book that was so she was like, Oh, dystopia’s hot. Like, that was the hot thing when that came out. But you know what isn’t being discussed that probably was true to her was a Shakespeare troop in a dystopia. Like that, that’s her unique twist that she brought to dystopia
Rachael Herron: [00:26:06] Yeah. So you can bring your passions in wherever you go.
Edward Giordano: [00:26:10] Oh, I think I, well, yeah, of course I have lots of passions that my thought is bringing the passions because only you could bring the passions of the way that you would bring them.
Rachael Herron: [00:26:18] I love that. And I love, and I agree with you. I, and I agree, I really believe in not saving anything. Like if you are passionate about it right now, spend it like any dealers that spend it all play it all. Put it on the page and as you do people go, Oh, no, but I got to save that idea for when I’m a better writer. No. When you’re a better writer, when you’ve written more, there will be new ideas. It will be just as exciting, but they can’t backfill until you’ve use them all, right. And I really see you doing that. You go deeply into a passion and you’re just chew, chew it for all it is worth.
Edward Giordano: [00:26:52] Yeah. It’s something that I, I, in my introductory poetry class, I took like for frickin’ ever ago was like, you can’t talk about the world. If you try to talk about the world, we could talk about the world, if you start with the brick.
Rachael Herron: [00:27:04] Yeah. Oh gosh. That’s gorgeous.
Edward Giordano: [00:27:07] I was like, damn so that, so that was a little bit with the plums and you can’t talking like this, like thought of things, thought of things that I touched on, in the plum story is like immigration, cultural assimilation, privacy concerns.
Rachael Herron: [00:27:22] Yeah. And you tried to write about those things?
Edward Giordano: [00:27:24] You would just fail. You just fail so fast.
Rachael Herron: [00:27:26] It would be so boring
Edward Giordano: [00:27:28] But if you, but if you start with the brick or the plum or whatever it is to you, you can talk about the world.
Rachael Herron: [00:27:33] So the universal is inside the specific. That’s what I always say. Like, if the more specific you go with something, which is so counterintuitive, the more everyone will understand it by looking at that brick. That is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?
Edward Giordano: [00:27:50] Well, this is something I told you before, but I’m going to say it again. It’s- it’s, it’s super quick. It’s big brother.
Rachael Herron: [00:27:59] Yeah. Tell me about this. I really tried. I tried.
Edward Giordano: [00:28:01] It’s fine. You don’t need, you don’t need to like the show at all, but the lesson that I learned from big brother, for as a storyteller is the entire there’s three episodes a week and the entire two episodes before the third episode, it’s just place setting. And so everyone like is lining up at the table and putting their fork down, their knife down. And like, what’s beautiful about that as a storyteller is that you see, you see a bit, you see the entire table as a, you are, and you know exactly what’s going to happen at the, the, the decision point. So there’s a, there’s in big brother’s competition and the winner of the competition gets to nominate people for eviction. And you get to, and, you know, as the audience who exactly they’re going to attack, go after. About five days before the competition even happens. So it’s all just place setting. So I, what I, what I take for that as a writer is I think you should always let them
Rachael Herron: [00:29:01] Yes
Edward Giordano: [00:29:02] Let the reader in before a big, or even maybe even a small decision point or conflict point. That’s probably what that’s, where it was like for. The conflict point you should let them know exactly the ramifications of that, of that move, like well in advance so that when it happens, they’re like, Oh, that means that, but then, so then you got, so you get, you get the, that means that formula, but then, you know, something’s always gonna go a little wrong with it. So then, so you, so it’s like, you’re getting two stories packed in the same thing. Cause you, you set the time to let people know, what, what would happen if this action happened and then the action happens and then it doesn’t go exactly that way. So you’re getting, you’re getting two for the price of one.
Rachael Herron: [00:29:46] And you’re going to just exactly what we want to do in writing. We want to telegraph subtly to the reader. So I always think that readers and readers don’t know what we are doing as writers. They don’t know that we are setting them up, which is what our job is. And I bet you’re, you’re an anomalous watcher of these shows. Like most watchers of these shows are just thinking like, Oh, I bet. I bet I know what’s going to happen. And then they’re surprised, but you are really going into it from a story basis, which I love and using that, you know, it’s the same thing like if we’re writing about a character who has got to learn to trust in a book, that’s her character arc in that very first hook scene, it needs to be something about trust. The reader will never get it. The reader will never notice, but, but you’ve just made a promise to them that something that’s going to be fulfilled later, but you’re going to do it sideways. You’re going to do it slant.
Edward Giordano: [00:30:35] Yeah. Something, something’s always gonna go wrong.
Rachael Herron: [00:30:36] Yeah
Edward Giordano: [00:30:37] If things are going, if things are going too right, then that’s a, that’s a position for either re-planning the conflict or summary- summarization to like, move on, move on to the actual things that are gonna be interesting story.
Rachael Herron: [00:30:54] Yeah. I love that. I’m so glad that you said big brother. That’s so cool.
Edward Giordano: [00:30:58] Yeah. It’s, it’s a, it’s a problem. I don’t know. I will say that my boyfriend Chris is very excited that I told them the season is half over. And he’s like, thank God. So
Rachael Herron: [00:31:13] Does he watch with you at all?
Edward Giordano: [00:31:15] Begrudgingly at best, at best absolute best.
Rachael Herron: [00:31:21] That’s amazing. I love that. Can you tell us the best book you’ve read recently?
Edward Giordano: [00:31:25] Something I read recently that I love, and I’m going to give you like something that was a little older in something recent. Just because I think the little older one was just like, what was so eye opening to me as a writer. And that was Three Parts Dead by Max Gladstone. Okay. I think I told you a little bit about this before, but for the audience Three Parts Dead, it’s about witches and gargoyles and vampires. Okay. And they’re set in a futuristic steam punk, Boston, sites spoilers, you’re not supposed to know it’s future Boston, but it’s really doesn’t think the story, and they, they all pray to this God and this God dies. And the God leaves a little bit of energy leftover and the, and that God had outstanding prayer contracts with the gargoyles, the witches and the vampires. And so what, what was really great about the book is it’s, it’s a book about contract law, but it’s set with the vampires, witches, and gargoyles and, and I just want to say that was such a, eye opening experience. So I was like, Oh, fantasy has to be all fantasy all the time just to joke. But when I read Three Parts Dead, I was like, Oh, this is- its fantasy, but it’s about contracts law. And then the next book in the series Two Serpent’s Rise is about water management. A sense of its- it’s like, it’s theoretically about like poker games set in the future wild West, but it’s also about water management.
Rachael Herron: [00:33:04] His writing is good enough to get away with this
Edward Giordano: [00:33:05] Well, I think it’s great. And Chris had read it and he loved it. So, and every person I recommended said they loved it. So, so I, I just want people to think like, Oh, you, I think like you think, you know what this genre or this sub-genre is, don’t let, don’t be assuming that you know, what’s, what’s something it is about like, like, like something that I heard on a great courses thing was: So women in the past were only allowed to read these like Gothic ghost stories over and like, that’s the only thing they were like allowed officially to read. And it’s something that some of the authors started doing was that they were hiding in accounting lessons and fiscal management and like recipes and like all of these, like all these things into like, Oh, it’s just a ghost story. It doesn’t matter. So, so,
Rachael Herron: [00:33:56] But they’re actually learning
Edward Giordano: [00:33:58] like learning, cause they were only, it was the only type of books they were allowed to like read and be approved and since mid would never touch it, they were the, the, these authors has kept inserting all these life lessons into these ghost story books.
Rachael Herron: [00:34:11] That’s fascinating.
Edward Giordano: [00:34:13] And then there was, there was this, I- would want me to get to one book, one more book after this one, but Ivan Cheng is an author that I read recently and she is a romance, yeah, basically a romance writer from the 1930s in Hong Kong. And she has a pretty tragic life story, but, but she was writing, she’s writing these romance books that were essentially anti-China, China books. Because they were romance books, she was able to get away with it for much longer. She ended up having to, once the Chinese government figured it out, she ended up having to flee to San Francisco in the sixties or seventies where she lived until like 85. But. But, yeah, so she wrote all these books where there were like, there were romances, there were really anti-Chinese communist books and they were there and I read, I read a bunch of them in a row and they were so good
Rachael Herron: [00:35:03] That’s amazing! See, listeners you are having an Ed experience right now. You really are. These are things that I bet you did not know about. Okay, what’s the other book you want me to know
Edward Giordano: [00:35:10] Okay, that last book. Okay. I don’t, I know you said just one, but you know, I can’t, I told you I’m a talker. Okay. The last one that I would have mentioned is Rosewater by Tade Thompson winner of the NoMo award, which is an African speculative fiction award. And what I love about that book is it’s the, it begins with this big migration of all these sick people to, to, I forget- the Rosewater, which is, which is a fictional city in Africa. And an alien craft has landed there years ago. And once a year, the alien craft opens up and all the, all the, all the people who are sick, who are in the vicinity get healed. So it, so it causes this yearly pilgrimage to this, because of course, like if you had, if you had a debilitating disease and you could just go to Africa at this time of the year and you’re going to get healed, you’re going to do it. So it caught it. And then it, then it’s also about like telepaths and angels and microbial DNA, like,
Rachael Herron: [00:36:12] That’s awesome
Edward Giordano: [00:36:13] And like really checks all my boxes. Like I’ve this theory on, you don’t want to, like, I find it so hard, especially in COVID-19 times to like, let media in, let stories in. But if you let- but there are certain things, certain check boxes that we internally have that if they check it, we’ll like, we’ll let it, we’ll let the story in. Like for some people it just needs to be like a 1926 Oracle setting in England. Like that we’ll let that we’ll let people in to accept the story for what the story is. For me, it’s I think my things are like, you know, I love like bigger philosophy questions about life. As long as it has like a little comedy, a little romance, a little whore. I liked what was it like? Like I’m like, okay, but I don’t want to be too chorus. I don’t want to be too romantic. Like, like there’s like, we all have internally in a checklist. And I guess, I think we should all think about what our checklist is just so we could identify like, Oh, this is my checklist. And this is how I’ll accept stories most easily, not to say you can’t overwhelm, like, not to say that, like, if you love a story that isn’t in, that you can, it’s just, what’s easy for you. What’s your like go to,
Rachael Herron: [00:37:19] and also that’s really valuable for when you’re thinking about your own work, that, that checklist of basically, I think of it as obsessions in a way, like what will I lose myself down rabbit holes? How can I bring that? I want those stories in that, but I also want to bring it into my stories. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about is incorporating all of these different pieces and facets into the work.
Edward Giordano: [00:37:39] I want to ask you a quick question.
Rachael Herron: [00:37:41] Yeah
Edward Giordano: [00:37:42] Okay. So pretend right now, you, you close that door. And you are in your room with your dogs for a hundred years, but only one only one day has gone by in real life. Lala is missing you that, and then, and then you write a hundred books, one year in your chamber. What is the book that 80% of those books are? Not- I’m not what is not, I don’t want to hear about the outliers. Like I want to hear about like, what is the, you’ve written a hundred books over and over and over and over again. What is 80% of those books about?
Rachael Herron: [00:38:13] It is, the answer is so stultifyingly boring that I can’t even like, I can almost not bear to be able to say it, but it would be, Jesus. It would be creative nonfiction about what I am doing inside that room.
Edward Giordano: [00:38:28] Okay.
Rachael Herron: [00:38:29] And how it reflects on memories and hopes and things that I know scientifically so it would be more like the Patreon essays that I write it would be, and it would- being trapped in a room, for a hundred years and they would, they would be boring, but, or they would, I would, I know also in my skill as a writer lies in being able to bring that to life. It wouldn’t be thriller. It wouldn’t be romance. It wouldn’t be anything like that. It would be fully Naval gazing. Totally. You don’t want to think of it, it sounds so narcissistic, but it’s not. It’s, it’s the extrapolation to the connectedness that I feel for everyone else. Right. I’m turning this very difficult question back around on you. What would yours be?
Edward Giordano: [00:39:13] Well, I have the benefit of thinking of this in case you did ask me about 80% of the books, I think would end up in this, like high concept science fiction, geopolitical immigration culture exploration. Like 80% of them would land, like, like Ghostly Chords was like a, like, if you think about the Pink Floyd prison, like those are words that’s like to the right end of my prism. Whereas a sour plum juice is like the full range of my prism.
Rachael Herron: [00:39:49] Yeah.
Edward Giordano: [00:39:50] So, so I think I would, I think I would just like pop out books like that over and over again. Like I love, I love like mixing cultures that pop, so this, this is, I know you said earlier that I shouldn’t wait to write a book, but I’m actually waiting to write this book and you could, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna retort against that because I don’t think I’m capable of it yet. And what that is. I want, so in this future and this goes back to the Ursula K. Le Guin quote, which is every book teaches you how, every book makes the rules and once it makes the rules, the book must follow it.
Rachael Herron: [00:40:23] Yes.
Edward Giordano: [00:40:24] Okay. And then with that, I want to do where they, so earth is going to get blown up, you know, pretty normal subject and America, they built a bunch of ships and then they have like, they have only so much money. They like on their last, they could only fund the last half a ship for some group of people so that another country pays for the other half of people. And then throughout the course of their hundred-year journey in space, the English speakers and other people of another nation who speak a different language, they live on this generation ship and I want it to be, it teaching you, it both the book, both creating and English other language Creole and the book in narrative transforming into the Creole as you learn it.
Rachael Herron: [00:41:11] That’s a lofty goal.
Edward Giordano: [00:41:08] Oh, that’s why I’m not doing it right now. That’s why I’m not doing, but I was like, just, just imagine, just imagine like you, you read this like 900-page Opus and at the end of it, you’re like, Oh, I kind of, I kind of understand like, like, like not only changing dialogue, but actually changing in the narrative.
Rachael Herron: [00:41:28] Okay. So I’m going to, I’m going to jump into teacher right now
Edward Giordano: [00:41:32] Oh please.
Rachael Herron: [00:41:33] And say that you should start that book as soon as possible, and you should write it as badly as you can because you, this is your darling. This is probably one of the books of your heart, right? This is, you know we all-
Edward Giordano: [00:41:46] this isn’t, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a number one book in my heart, but it’s, it’s easily in the top three.
Rachael Herron: [00:41:51] Yeah. We have more than one book of our hearts. Just like we have more than one dog’s of our heart. Right. But then some dogs really get us that kind of idea. So this is one of your books of your heart and the longer you wait, this is why I say this the longer you wait, the bigger you’re going to build it up, but it needs to be as good as it can be. No, you’re forgetting that it needs to be a piece of shit that does not work for a long time. And then, and the other thing that I really believe about books, is that they teach you what they want to be. So, so you, you write a crappy first draft, but then you as a human being are smarter when you read it, because the book is now teaching you when you read it over and you’re doing that second draft. You’re a smarter Ed than you could have been before you read the book and then you start to learn from it, how to make it into what you want it to be. But I don’t want you to be scared of this until you’re like 57.
Edward Giordano: [00:42:41] That’s a good, that’s a solid point. I, I actually, now that you’re saying that, I think you’re right. If I, if I wrote, I still don’t want to release it to lime, like in my fifties, I could say that. But having a first draft done now, when I’m 32, wouldn’t be bad. It would just be like, okay, I could come back to this later.
Rachael Herron: [00:43:02] It’s going to be, it’s going to be like, marinating. I hate that phrase, but like, that’s what it would be doing. It would be sitting, you’re learning all around it. The book is learning. Like, I want you to, I want you to start up that
Edward Giordano: [00:43:16] You want me to start? Okay. Okay. It’s good.
Rachael Herron: [00:43:18] It’s such a bag. You’re like, Rachael, I want you to do a few things.
Edward Giordano: [00:43:22] No, no, no, no. I think, I think you’re actually right about that. So, yeah, well, Oh, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve written some questions for you that I want to ask.
Rachael Herron: [00:43:30] We do, I have a time limit and I still want you to be able to talk. Cause I have a top of the hour thing. I still want you to be able to talk about your podcast, find you, so, fill that in.
Edward Giordano: [00:43:40] Okay. Okay. I think you’ll answer this one super quick, but then I, once I ask that you can, okay. What genre or sub-genre? Have you, have you want to written in that you haven’t and why not?
Rachael Herron: [00:43:57] I don’t think there is one
Edward Giordano: [00:43:58] There isn’t. Okay.
Rachael Herron: [00:43:59] I think I’ve done all the genres that I want to, I cannot think of one because I’ve written in five genres down there, the five that pulled me the most.
Edward Giordano: [00:44:11] Okay.
Rachael Herron: [00:44:12] So if something occurs to me, I’ll probably do it cause I have no problem jumping ship.
Edward Giordano: [00:44:15] Okay, that’s a, that’s a great answer. My quick answer to that is like, I’m like somewhat, I’m a little tempted to write romance. Everyone likes a good hallmark movie.
Rachael Herron: [00:44:24] Yes! I think you would do it so well,
Edward Giordano: [00:44:27] but I’m afraid of, I’m afraid of a lot of things, so
Rachael Herron: [00:44:30] You? What are you afraid of?
Edward Giordano: [00:44:32] I’m afraid of like the steamy scenes I’m afraid of like,
Rachael Herron: [00:44:35] Then make it close door
Edward Giordano: [00:44:37] Make it close door? Okay.
Rachael Herron: [00:44:38] Especially if it’s a sweet kind of hallmark you feeling, closed door, still hot tension. But the thing is that you, you have, and this, and this was reflected and goes to court. You have such a beautiful, sweet way of looking at relationships between people and that comes out naturally. And you, I think you were doing a really bang up job with that. I think you could write something like that. It would be beautiful.
Edward Giordano: [00:45:01] Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yes, I have, I have a, I have like a project runway inspired.
Rachael Herron: [00:45:06] That’s right. We talked about this.
Edward Giordano: [00:45:07] Yeah we talked about it. Super- it’s super fun. And if I could, if I insert, you know, I’m the worst, I’m gonna insert one more craft tip, okay. If you could, if you could make a list of all the, all the character interactions in your book and then asks and like do it in colors, like highlight them like green for this character, yellow for this character and ask yourself which two characters haven’t interacted and like try to make a scene for them.
Rachael Herron: [00:45:35] Oh, I like that.
Edward Giordano: [00:45:36] Just, just like, that was actually how, there was in the original draft of ghost course, I ended up filling it in with like three additional chapters that were like, hold on, these two people didn’t interact enough for me. So then I,
Rachael Herron: [00:45:47] And as they interact with everyone, everyone you’re learning more about all of their facets or all of their sides.
Edward Giordano: [00:45:54] Yes, that was, yeah, that was another, there was another calf if I want to throw, but yes, I would love for you to all check out my current podcast, which is Linguistics Everyday. It’s, it’s, it’s a little bit like the subtitle in my head. It’s like the dirty globalist podcast.
Rachael Herron: [00:46:10] What does that mean to you?
Edward Giordano: [00:46:12] Like, it’s a, so like we’re so much talk right now about American supremacy, American perfection. And I’m just like, well of course me being me, I’m like that, turn it on its head. And like, what can we learn from the world? So, some of the, some of the recent episodes that I thought was really great was we had an episode where we just went through all the Slovic languages and history of Slovic languages. Another episode we did, we did, the impact of K-pop, Dizzy and Bollywood on, on media. And so dizzy is Turkish soap operas that are really popular in South America. So the
Rachael Herron: [00:46:57] A soap opera is popular in South America.
Edward Giordano: [00:46:58] That is,
Rachael Herron: [00:46:59] People are having another Ed moment.
Edward Giordano: [00:46:55] I’m saying, I’m saying one of the things that are true and then yeah. And it talks about how these like these, yeah. So yeah, if you, if you want to check out Linguistics every day, it’s not going to be, I mean, it’s about linguistics, but I don’t want people to like, Oh, it’s a writing podcast. It’s really, it’s really about exploring language hopping.
Rachael Herron: [00:47:18] Yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s so cool. So cool Ed.
Edward Giordano: [00:47:23] We’re on audible. No, no, no, whatever iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, all the podcasts that you love and some that you don’t like, I’m sure I get, I get frustrated. I get frustrated with Apple iTunes if I’m being honest,
Rachael Herron: [00:47:36] No everybody does it sucks,
Edward Giordano: [00:47:38] But I still use it. I can’t, I can’t, I’m- the problem is my listen history is attached to it and I can, it’s like, it’s like the iTunes cuffs. I can’t, I can’t let it go. Like I, my history is too important to me.
Rachael Herron: [00:47:49] I’m so fickle. I’ll use like every, but I’m an Android phone person. So I just, I tried everything. Google one is the Google platform is pretty good.
Edward Giordano: [00:47:58] Oh, that’s good to know. Yeah. And then you could, you could check me out @EdwardGiordano on Twitter. I tweet about a lot of things, currently big brother 22 in addition, I’m also a member of UMB, which is Yes in my backyard, which is a housing movement. California and America for that matter, have a housing shortage crisis
Rachael Herron: [00:48:20] That’s just getting worse this year.
Edward Giordano: [00:48:18] Yeah. Which is getting, yeah, every year gets worse and people and cities like, like, of course when they’re asked, Oh, should, should more, more houses and more apartments buildings be asked the answer. I, I like to think that most people respond the answer is yes to that question, but when they’re like, Oh, but we want to do it across the street from you. The answer becomes suddenly becomes no. So, so that, so it’s like, yes, yes in my backyard. And then, I’m very, what else is going on? I, you could go to my website EdwardGiordano.net. That’s E-D-W-A-R-D G-I-O-R-D-A-N-O.net. And you could sign up for my mailing list and read like my thoughts on the craft that are silly. I
Rachael Herron: [00:49:06] I, I’m not even on your mailing list, I need to go join that
Edward Giordano: [00:49:07] You should join my mailing list. And, they, and I like posts, like things I learned. It’s like this blog series that I’ve started, where I just like talked about I’m in the middle of writing things I learned writing two short stories that didn’t end up being short stories, just like, just like observations on my, on my writing and just trying to like. Like you like, hopefully both learn from myself and hopefully some other people get some stuff out of it
Rachael Herron: [00:49:34] I’m going to join. Everyone else should join. And I just want to say that this 200th Edisode is just the best thing, because it is actually a reflection of like, I would never have met you. If it hadn’t been for this podcast.
Edward Giordano: [00:49:42] Yeah. I wanted, I wouldn’t know when I, when I came up to you where you’re like scared? it’s like, Oh shit,
Rachael Herron: [00:49:52] Absolutely not. I was beyond flattered and I was glad that my wife was there so I’m like, see? See?
Edward Giordano: [00:49:58] That’s so, so funny. That’s so great. That’s so great that we, it was such a random encounter. So, yeah, that’s awesome.
Rachael Herron: [00:50:07] Thank you, Ed.
Edward Giordano: [00:50:08] Thank you
Rachael Herron: [00:50:09] Thank you for everything. Thank you for everything you do for me. And I really, really appreciate you. Thank you for being here today.
Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/
Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.
Join me.
❤️ Let me help you do the work of your heart. ❤️
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