Ep.195: Ivuoma Okoro on Changing Forms to Get Better at Plotting

Ivuoma Okoro is the writer, producer, and performer of the narrative fiction podcast Vega: A Sci-Fi Adventure!. The show is stylized storytelling, where she, as a colorful narrator, talks to listeners directly as she leads them through the tale of a bounty huntress of the fantasy future. After launching the show in late 2018, Vega won “Best Writing of a New Spoken Word Production” and “Best Performance of a New Spoken Word” in the 2019 Audioverse Awards. In addition to that, Ivuoma was invited to speak on Film Independent’s 2019 panel for narrative podcasts “Narrative Podcasts: Stories & Sound” in the spring of that year. While most of her writing efforts are focused on the podcast, Ivuoma practices prose fiction through a bi-weekly newsletter and ultimate dreams on making her way into television animation.

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Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #195 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron.

[00:00:21] So thrilled that you’re here with me today. Fantastic interview lined up for you from Ivuoma Okoro and it was just a thrill to talk to her about something that we normally don’t talk about on this podcast. She’s writing and producing and putting on like a drama podcast. And it’s going to be so exciting for you to listen to, because she reminded me as I always need reminding. There are so many different paths to doing what we’re doing and the creative talent and energy and inspiration that is out there is incredible. So please enjoy, she talks a little bit about, changing forms in order to get better at plotting, which is something that I had never even thought about doing. We really bonded over the difficulty in plotting. Some of you don’t have that difficulty. She and I do. So that was really great. I know that you’re going to enjoy that interview. 

[00:00:25] What’s going on around here. I am actually really enjoying this tiny bit of down time. I am working on this big idea, taking the collection of essays that I was working on and making it kind of skewing it a little bit to a new angle which has me completely fired up. I am just a light with ideas for this in a way that feels magnificent. So I’m just really enjoying going down that rabbit hole, letting my brain play with it, letting myself have time to think about what the best course of action for this particular book will be and what I want to make sure that I don’t miss in this revision. It’s a massive revision. Yay. Yay. So I’m very excited about that. In technical. Interesting news. So I think I mentioned that I got an iPad mini because I had enjoyed doing the very, very last cleanup of Hush Little Baby before I sent it to my editor on my wife’s iPad. I loved it so much that I think I was only like maybe half an hour into the experience. And I asked my wife to buy me an iPad mini because she enjoys buying Apple products. So she got me one and I have been addicted to it since I got it. And it’s in a very professional and what’s the word organizational way. I loaded Good Notes onto it. After researching what is the best kind of note taking application for this. What I really, really wanted was to be able to use the Apple pencil on it and take notes, right? Because we all writers tend to like taking handwritten notes. My handwriting’s not that beautiful. It’s a little bit hard to read, but I can read it. I love it. I have books everywhere, planners everywhere. They’re coming out my ears. And I always loved to try the next new greatest thing. So I learned that with Good Notes, this app, you could go onto Etsy of all places and download Good Notes configurations. So I looked at all of their daily planners, Bo Joe’s journals, and I found out one I really liked, bought it for like $9 and uploaded it onto Good Notes. I’m using that right now as my planner, even though I have like two paper planners on my desk as well. I am addicted to planners, but I’m loving the ability to write by hand on the planner, but have it look really good. I got a matte. A screen protector for it. And using the Apple pencil with the matte screen protector really feels great. It almost feels like you’re writing on paper. I’m keeping my journal in there now. I am reading a friend’s book and making marks all over it. I am currently actively going in and updating all of these ideas I’m having for this revision of this collection of essays for this memoir. And it feels really, really good.

[00:04:31] It is so fun. It feels very, very productive. And I have to tell you I’m a little bit scared because I had already downloaded the post-its app for my phone. I know don’t stop laughing and I hadn’t ever used it, but I thought, Oh, it might be a little bit more usable on an iPad. So I just, this afternoon downloaded the posted app. It’s free by 3m, right. And I downloaded it onto the iPad and I have all of these post-its. My beloved post-it’s for the book I’m working on and it let me hold the iPad over them. Take pictures of the pages of post-its it automatically separates the post-its. Your handwriting is right there and you can still move them all over on the screen into whatever formats you want them. You can change the color of the post-it, this is the post-it that I wrote by hand. Now it’s inside my post-it app. I can move around with my finger to go wherever I wanted to go in. I can change the color. I can write new ones. I actually have an important post-it on my desk, which is kind of like my mission statement, my purpose. And I held up the iPad and took a picture of that post-it and now it’s a post-it inside the app. I don’t think it will take away my love for paper post-its and God knows I hope it doesn’t because I just got into composting those. 

[00:05:57] But it has been really, really exciting. I don’t know if I’m the only person to get this excited about post-it notes but I bet I’m not, I bet one of you really loves post-it notes as much as I do. So anyway, I’m loving the iPad. I got a stand for it to sit on, on the desk and it’s kind of working as a second screen sometimes. I do absolutely everything for my entire business. And I always have on a tiny 11-inch MacBook air. This one is actually like six years old and keeps crashing. So at some point I’m going to have to upgrade. But and having the tiny laptop, I love having the tiny screen. It works for me, but having the second screen is pretty nice too. So in terms of enjoying production and tech, this iPad mini is really treating me right. I very much like it. Plus, I got an incredibly cute comp book cover for it, which matches the comp book cover I have on my Kindle and I have a theme, because we love notebooks. I am passionate about notebooks. I’m not losing my notebooks. I’m not losing those other planners. This is in addition to, and it’s really working for my process.

[00:07:11] So, in terms of business stuff I would love to thank new patron. I’m going to guess that your first name Lane, Lane Anderson? or Leanne Anderson. Thank you. Thank you so much for your patronage. I really, really appreciate it. It means that I get to sit in this chair. And write those essays for you all and answer those questions that are for the mini episodes. It’s like the one that came out, I believe it was yesterday or the day before as this episode goes out. So thank you all patrons. You can always go look at my Patron levels, over  patreon.com/rachael and all else is well here. I’m just, I’m moving through my days and getting a lot of writing down as much as I can. And I hope that you are getting some writing done. If you’re not, go over to, HowDoYouWrite.net and tell me why, if you are go over there and tell me why I never get comments over there on my show with Jay, The Writer’s Well, we get so many comments, sometimes almost a hundred on a post on my show. I never asked for them and that’s fine. You don’t have to come over there, reach me anywhere that I am online. I am often on Twitter. I’m always in my email. So hit me up. Tell me how you are doing, because people don’t believe this, but I am actually very, very interested to know how you are doing with your writing. That is important to me. 

So yeah. Follow me on Twitter. Follow me on Instagram. I love Instagram. I’m just, I think I’m just RachaelHerron over there. So come follow me over there. Let’s connect. Tell me how you’re doing. Happy writing and enjoy this awesome interview. 

[00:08:52] Do you wonder why you’re not getting your creative work done? Do you make a plan to write and then fail to follow through? Again? Well, my sweet friend, maybe you’d get a lot out of my Patreon. Each month, I write an essay on living your creative life as a creative person, which is way different than living as a person who’ve been just Netflix 20 hours a week and I have lived both of those ways, so I know. You can get each essay and access to the whole back catalog of them for just a dollar a month. Which is an amount that really truly helps support me at this here writing desk. If you pledge the $3 level, you’ll get motivating texts for me that you can respond to. And if you pledge at the $5 a month level, you get to ask me questions about your creative life, that I’ll answer in the mini episodes. So basically I’m your mini coach. Go to patreon.com/Rachael (R A C H A E L) to get these perks and more. And thank you so much. 

Rachael Herron: [00:09:52] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, Ivuoma Okoro.  How- Hi Ivuoma. I don’t know why I said it. How, how are you Ivuoma? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:10:01] I’m doing well, Rachael, thank you so much for having me. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:03] Of course. You’ll notice with this podcast, if we make mistakes, I don’t worry about it because life happens. I rarely edit the show. Let me give a little introduction for you so people know who you are. Ivuoma Okoro is the writer, producer and performer of the narrative fiction podcast, Vega: A Sci-Fi Adventure! The show is stylized storytelling, where she, as a colorful narrator, talks to listeners directly as she leads them through the tail of a bounty huntress of the fantasy future. After launching the show in late 2018, they go won “Best Writing of a New Spoken Word Production” and “Best Performance of a New Spoken Word” in the 2019 Audioverse Awards. Congratulations on that! In addition to that, Ivuoma was invited to speak on Film Independent’s 2019 panel for narrative podcasts called “Narrative Podcasts: Stories & Sound” in the spring of that year. While most of her writing efforts are focused on the podcast, Ivuoma practices prose fiction through a bi-weekly newsletter and ultimately dreams of making her way into television animation. That is such a cool bio. And when we were introduced, I was like, yes, I have to talk to you because you are like, no one else I have talked to on this whole show. I’ve talked to writers and poets and some artists, I think one graphic novelist, but what you’re doing in terms of writing, production and dissemination is like this new frontier, you’re really, I know, and I know people are doing it, but not very many people are doing it and not many people are doing it really well and winning awards for it. So I would love to know just before we jump into your process, how did I get into this?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:11:42] How did I get into this? So I, I did kind of start off more so what I feel like is what many people move to LA doing? So, I wanted to write features and then I heard all the jobs are in TV. So I thought, okay, I need to write violets and write a spec thing and try to get a job in TV. And very quickly, I don’t know. I just don’t have the stamina for asking people to for permission to make things, or even just read my things? You know, like I would finish the script. I’m so excited about it. And then I could find one person to read in that and that person’s like, “Wow, you’re really talented.” And then they like, they’re ghosts, they just disappear, you know? And so I, I got to a place where I was like, I, you know, I think the story, this whole story that my podcast is about, it’s, it’s a really big world. So I’m like kind of like, I hope to be like an epic sort of like fantasy sci-fi sort of thing. So I just realized a better medium might’ve been a novel anyway. So I thought, great do it by myself, you know. Don’t have to worry about many things for a while. In terms of getting people to read it, I can just focus on craft. So that’s what I did. And then I heard a really awesome show, audio fiction called a Bubble. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:58] Never heard of that one

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:12:59] And then Yeah, it’s, it’s, it was one of those ones that it had like a big cast. Like I had heard of a couple of the actors they’d been in, like, one of them was like in parks and rec, like it just had a cast that I was like oh, I’m gonna check this out. And so I did, and I really enjoyed it. I think I had heard a couple of audio fiction things before or audio plays and I had trouble following it along because they, the ones that I had heard really depended on sound design to like take you through

Rachael Herron: [00:13:29] Yes. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:13:30] So I’m like, I don’t know where I am anymore, like the sound design in, I dunno, who’s speaking, a lot of these characters’ sound kind of similar, but this show, Bubble was really great cause it had a narrator and it kind of to read the scene directions. And so I thought, Oh, maybe my story can be that. And so I recorded a couple of test episodes, and I really enjoyed it. It brought together a lot of skills that I already have. I studied it as a, a performer in theater in college. And so I thought, Oh, well this kind of melds a lot of things that I already really like to do. And it’s been awesome. I am so glad, like getting to connect with people, people like connecting with the audience directly, like not needing anybody to tell me I can make things like it’s been, it’s been awesome.

Rachael Herron: [00:14:15] This is one that I’m going to listen to with my wife, because she’s really, really good at listening to audio drama and I kind of get caught up sometimes in what you were reading, like where’s the, where’s the, where’s the sound, what is it doing? What is happening? And she’s kind of translating that for me. And she gets super into that audio dramas. So what is your writing process? What does it look like? Where do you get it done? How do you do it? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:14:41] Pretty much it. So my writing process, I would say I’m not a coffee shop girl, though I wish I could be. I like the community atmosphere, but I kind of need to be alone.

Rachael Herron: [00:14:52] Oh that’s kind of perfect. Right?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:14:54] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:14:55] Coffee shop writers are dying and I have been practicing with this.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:14:58] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it kind of works out, but so what that ends up looking like, is me getting up really early when it feels like nobody else exists and writing and hopefully, I mean, I would say like, I like to write like in an ideal world where I didn’t have a schedule for other things, like get up at like 4:30-5, right. Till like, like 9, have breakfast, right, again, till lunch have lunch and then write a little bit. So maybe like total of like six or so hours a day. And when I, when I write, when I’m really into it, like when I’m in a draft, so right now, I’ve been focusing on getting the podcast out and relaunching that soon, but when I’m in a draft, I, I need to work every day or at least every weekday. And then I like to take the weekends off. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:43] Yeah.  So when you say you like on like a perfect day, you’d get up at like 4:30 or 5, is that when your eyes pop open or is this something that you set like an alarm for, to do?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:15:51] Oh I’m definitely 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:53] Okay

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:15:55] That makes me feel so much fun. Yeah but like once you’re, I feel like once you’re like two weeks in, it does feel like your eyes will pop open on that first alarm ring. As opposed to being like dragging yourself out of bed. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:07] I used to get up routinely at like 4 or 4:30 just cause I had to write before I went to work and I remember like that feeling of the alarm going off and you just don’t think. You put your feet on the floor and you stand up and then by the time you’re at your desk, you’re in the mood.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:19] Yeah, 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:20] But if you have one thought- I don’t know if you have this, but if I had one thought like could I stay in bed? then you’re doomed. You just have to put the feet on the floor first.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:28] Yeah. That, that happens to me. So that’s why I say I get up at 4:30 or 5 because I’m okay with a snooze, and I’m like, if I, if I have the time, if it’s, if it’s before work, then I’m like, I, I have to get my three hours done, you know. But. Yeah, I’m with you there. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:44] So what is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:47] My biggest challenge? It’s kind of funny to say this as a fiction writer, but I think it’s plot. I think it’s plotting. I feel like- 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:53] Me too! I am the exact same. I hate pot. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:56] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:58] It’s terrible. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:59] Yeah, for me, like emotional journeys and, themes, really get my mind going like that like I could tell you what the theme is, you know, like if her character starts out like dutiful and loyal and they’re going to need to learn to be you know, more spontaneous so that I can tell you, like how they’ll feel when they’re challenged with these new circumstances. And I can even like, see their faces. Like it’s really clear to me the inner journey, but when it comes to answering the question, like what happens, it’s really hard for me to just like, come up with like, a sequential logical plot that gets them there. So yeah, I find that really challenging and I feel like I come to this place where I’m like throwing things out and I’ll have people read it. And I’m like, is this work is, is this good enough? Is this passing enough plot wise for you to understand the emotions? Like it almost doesn’t matter to me what happens as long as they feel a certain way 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:52] That you can move them through their emotions, right. So, how do you generate, how do you generate plot ideas? And I’m really asking for myself, cause I’ve always, I have a, I have a good friend, Adrienne Bell who wrote The Plot MD. She’s like the plot doctor and she’ll sit down and like, you’ll say, I have a story about a man who feels this way. And she goes, well, he could be working here. And then this happens. And then like, like plot just pours out of her. And I get so jealous. Like, so how do you generate your ideas? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:23] Gosh, I wish I kind of, I’m going to read that book. You say that she had a book?

Rachael Herron: [00:18:27] Yeah. The Plot MD. Yeah 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:28] The Plot MD. Yeah, I’m going to read that because I need that. I feel like I’m still trying to work it out. I feel like something that’s really helped me. So I, I did mention it in the, in the bio that you mentioned at the beginning of the episode, these like short stories

Rachael Herron: [00:18:44] Yeah

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:45] As a, as a bi-weekly newsletter, which I haven’t been so diligent about lately 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:48] Wow with all short story, but like, even

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:52] Yeah. So I saw it, so I want, I was trying to get into this habit of writing just plot for these stories. Cause you don’t have time to really get into like

Rachael Herron: [00:19:00] Great idea

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:19:01] the whole journey. Yeah. So it was just like, okay, this happens, that happens. Cause what I started realizing when, when, so my podcast is called Vega. And so like when Vega was doing well, I was hearing from a couple people and they’re like, Hey, can you pitch us things? And I just couldn’t, I don’t know. Like, it was really hard to like, they’re like what happens? I’m like, okay. So like, this is the theme, you know, so I, I thought maybe doing short stories will really helped me just like focus on this happens, that happens. And that happens and I can create a little bit of emotion out of that, but mostly about like things happening. But I think probably the biggest book that was helpful for me was this book called The Art of Dramatic Writing. Have you heard of that one by-

Rachael Herron: [00:19:40] Ooh. But I’m gonna write it down. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:19:42] Yeah, it’s, it’s a great one. It’s by this guy named Lajos Egri (E G R I) and it’s really about playwriting but it’s applicable for all kinds of writing. Cause all kinds of writing, like the basis of it is drama. So that one was really good and he was all about having a premise, which is a thing like, you know poverty leads to ruin or whatever you’re thinking, be anything, whatever you believe, and then having each thing that happens in your narrative, justify or prove that premise.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:16] I love that. I’m always trying to tell that to students and I’ve never managed to say it that succinctly before. That makes total sense. Yeah, I’ve been, the listeners will know that I’ve been struggling a lot with that. I wrote this thriller that is, that really turned out to be an emotional novel. And my editor just kept saying, okay, but can you make it a thriller? Because you know you need the dramatic tension. You need that motion. So let me ask you about these short stories. Do you think that it has helped? With your, your plot to help your plot?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:20:46] I- I do. I think now that I know, I think it was pitching that really made me realize my plotting was weak as a, as a muscle, and I, and I’ve always known, like I would get, I would have a really strong idea of the beginning, have a very strong notion about the big exact ending moment, but everything in between, I don’t know. So I think that’s what led me to get that book, The Art Dramatic Writing because I would get so lost. And so I, I do think it is helpful, or that it has been helpful for me to think about what happens. And I think too, every time that I’ve switched mediums, so I started off, you know, writing features and then I, I was like, okay, I’ll write pilots. And then I started writing this, this pilot as a novel, and now I’m in audio fiction, like understanding what each medium needs and understanding in audio, if you’re writing an adventure people want to know what happens. They’re, they’re listening to see like what happens. Though audio is a great space too for just like talking to a person, you know, like hearing thoughts. But I do want it to feel like, Oh, this is moving along. So I think, I think all those things, you know, and the short stories are different medium. I think each of those things have taught me, yeah, like how do I move the story along? And what are the kind of beats I need to hit? I do think it’s helpful. So I need to be consistent with it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:10] That’s the hardest part. I send a weekly letter of encouragement to writers and I don’t think I’ve sent it in like eight weeks, so you know that’s, the times are strange. I’m sorry. I’m so stuck on these, these short stories. How long are they normally? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:22:22] I would say I, my goal is 400 to 500 words. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:27] That, how do you do that? That’s so short

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:22:30] I know. Well, so, so the, so the premise for it is like it’s I call it the short story machine and it’s like give me a Facebook comment or like a headline and I’ll like, make a short story about it. So like the first one, the, the Facebook comment was like, if I say Candyman three times, will he appear and like keep me company during quarantine basically. So, I wrote a little story about that. So it starts off with a very like small premise. And so I think that’s what helps me keep them come shorter 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:07] That’s so cool

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:23:08] And just like expounding a little bit on that, on that little word. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:10] I am immediately subscribing to your newsletter. So, no, no, no pressure. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:23:18] My biggest joy, I would say I am a huge fan of that quote. I forget who says it. I think most people have been accredited, but the quote that goes “No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.” Have you heard that?

Rachael Herron: [00:23:30] No, I, I’ve heard it, but I, I, it sounds vaguely familiar. So let me think about it. “No tears in the writer. No tears in the reader.” Yeah, that makes sense. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:23:37] Yeah. So it’s this idea of, if you’re writing something and it’s boring to you, it’s going to be boring for everybody else. And if you’re writing something and you’re moved by it, or you’re like, man, this really captures what I was trying to say, or you know, I, I feel like anytime. And it doesn’t happen often, but anytime I’m able to write something and I feel like, this is what I wanted to say. Or it makes me feel emotional or I’m going over and over because I’m like, I feel so bad for this character right, I feel so good for this character. Those are times where I feel like, I feel like man I’m meant to do this. Whereas in other times I feel like, you know, kind of like what I was saying with plotting. Is this working, I’m throwing it out, hoping people like it. But I feel like those moments where I, it, it moves me when I, when I write something or times where I feel like, okay. This is, I feel purposeful. I’m supposed to be doing this. I know that if I feel this way, other people will feel something. And so I feel like those are pretty joyous moments for me. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:39] Oh, that’s delicious. I love that feeling. I love that. What can you share a craft tip of any sort with us? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:24:46] Craft tip. I would say the biggest thing that I’ve learned, especially doing sci-fi fantasy world building all this kind of stuff, is do research. I did, I under miss- I underestimated the power of research, for a long time. And then I 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:01] I am still underestimating it. Like, I just don’t like research. Tell, tell me more about this. How did you, how did you learn, you did this, especially for something that you’re really, you know, you’re making up

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:25:12] Yeah. You’re making up. Yeah. Everybody thinks, oh, you can just make your own rules or whatever, but the best science fiction and yet, I mean, you can go ahead, you can see this in examples, countless classic examples, whether it’s fantasy or science fiction. It’s based on something real, like it’s based on no world war one, or you just like something like. So I think I really started to understand this when I was first crafting Vega as a novel and I’m sure, you know, novels take a lot of- like a lot, there’s a lot that goes into them. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:42] So much!

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:25:43] You have to think about everything about this world. Yeah. And so I was having a lot of trouble, like even visualizing, what do they wear? Like what did they eat and why? What’s, what, what are the rules of their religion and all this kind of stuff. And so I started, you know, doing research on like science, I think like all of like one of the gods are the ones that, the one that my main character believes in is like based off of like electricity and the rules of like thermodynamics and all this kind of stuff. So it’s like, once you are able to, you know, like there’s like whole fields of research about these things, you know? So if you’re like, it will to do that, it becomes this creative springboard for you. Like, okay, well, if the electrons are moving in this way, maybe when they’re doing their ritual, they move in that same way, you know,

Rachael Herron: [00:26:28] That’s so cool

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:26:29] You can just base these things off of other things and do less work for yourself and just pulling things out of thin air. So I feel like once I realized that I was, or like once I was able to do a certain level of research, it basically wrote itself like 70% of the world was kind of there.

Rachael Herron: [00:26:44] Wow. So how do you, how do you restrict yourself to not getting lost down the rabbit hole of research? And I know a lot of writers have that problem. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:26:52] Yeah. So, I mean, I’ve, I’ve heard a lot of writers talk about this idea of, yeah, I think, I don’t know if there’s two kinds of writers, but two things can happen. Like you can get so into building the world and doing the research that you neglect the plot or you, or you can just like see the plot and then do as much research as you need to continue writing. I kind of fall into the second one. I was telling you earlier, like themes and characters are really what drive me. And I, I think I’m like this in general, once I know enough about it, I’m good. I can like leave that and go back to the story and kind of fill in the cracks that I know are showing. And then kind of move on from there. So I think it’s really about, like, I think research for research’s sake is fun, but that’s not writing. And so yeah, if you want to get back to your novel, knowing what the plot is and knowing okay, they’re going to move through this area and this area is based off of this country and then do research on that country and just enough for you to keep on writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:51] To inspire you to- to get new ideas to, to fill in. Let me ask you quickly about theme too, because I know that it’s a word that sometimes panics right? New writers. What is, what is your theme? Do you mind me asking for a Vega? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:28:03] Yeah. So my, so my premise, according to, Mr. Egri in our dramatic writing is that, active doubt leads to deeper understanding.

Rachael Herron: [00:28:14] That’s gorgeous. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:28:15] Yeah. So it’s just this idea that, so it’s like a, it’s like a faith-based world that they live in. Like they have these beliefs that are really extreme. And so as I, as, as you mentioned at the beginning my character is a bounty huntress, but she, her, her nation and they, they employ her to go kill off like the world’s biggest criminals, but like, she, she kills them, you know? And like, they’re like trying to purify the earth, but she’s a killer, you know? And so it’s this idea of, she comes to a point where she’s like, is this right?

Rachael Herron: [00:28:45] Right

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:28:46] Is this what I do? You know, so she has doubts and that those doubts as painful as they are lead her to question things and those questions lead to a deeper understanding as she gets more answers. So, yeah, that’s kind of like the overarching theme of the whole narrative. And so every, every conversation, every fight every, hopefully plot point leads to further developing, like, okay, if she’s the only one who’s actively doubting things, she’s the one who will grow in her understanding 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:16] and then perhaps to see other people starting to doubt or learning how to doubt almost in this faith-based society. The thing I love about this theme is that it is not a common one. How some themes repeat and, you know, we pull from them a lot and you know, like a lot of my books are written around the same theme. Cause I go back to my core story over and over again, but that is a really unique and beautiful one. Right.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:29:37] Thank you. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:38] Thank you for sharing. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:29:39] What is your core story? 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:41] My core theme is that; true family is chosen. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:29:46] I want that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:48] it’s good. Isn’t it? But even, even when I set out to write a story with a different theme, by the end of the first draft, god damn it. I’m back at it again. But that’s okay, right? Because I believe and I prove with my own life. And I’m attracted to those kinds of books and stories and movies. So 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:30:05] and there’s so many ways to tell that story. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:07] Exactly, you and I could tell- anybody watching, sorry, I have a hair in my eye. We could have the same premise and you would write, we could have the same plot premise and have two separate themes. Your theme versus my theme and we will come up with completely different books, completely different stories. And that’s, what’s really exciting to me about theme.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:30:28] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:30:29] Especially when we go into revision. I think we have to have to have it first draft, I think can play but into revision. I love theme. It was delicious. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:30:42] This one’s a hard one. I don’t know if it’s surprising, but I definitely like if there’s any relational disharmony, any, anything going on, like, even if it’s like somebody didn’t text me back and I’m like, are they mad? Like I just, yeah. I feel like that’s not surprising. Cause it’s, it’s just like how we are, you know, like, writing happens in your head, and all this other thing happen in your head. And so it’s hard to separate those things. So when everything is smooth, it’s very easy for me to focus on, on what I need to do in terms of getting stuff down on paper.

Rachael Herron: [00:31:16] But I wonder also if that is something to do with your emotional intelligence, which you bring to the book, you know, you’ve already said that you understand the emotions of your characters and perhaps when you are in a place of limited understanding about the emotions of the people that you care about that throws you off a little bit.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:31:32] Yeah 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:33] Because I don’t, I don’t care. Like she’s mad at me, she needs to tell me later and I’m going to write, you know,

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:31:38] Yeah. That- I wish I had that power, but I think you have a point about that. Yeah, cause I do, I, I love talking about emotional behavior. I love understanding how people click. I said, I was, I said earlier I was an actress. I think that was a large part of it. Like, why does this character act this way? If I find out, then I can understand them and act like them, you know, like I think, I think there’s something to that 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:01] and that’s, there’s an undercurrent of empathy that you probably bring to everything. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:32:05] Yeah. I like the thought though.

Rachael Herron: [00:32:10] What is the best book that you’ve read recently? And why did you love it?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:32:13] In the same vein, my, the book that I think I’ve read recently that was really powerful, it was called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:26] Because I’m in recovery and I was already thinking adult children of alcoholics often have this kind of emotional response to other people’s emotional responses. So there’s probably similar. Tell us again, The Children of Emotionally, what?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:32:38] Immature Parents. Yeah. It’s, it’s probably similar. It’s this, it’s this kind of thing, I read it and it told me my entire emotional experience in my childhood and I was like, this is why, like all these other you know, personality tests and all these things that kind of get, get at it? But I think this book really got to the core of things. And I think the reason I loved it so much again, is I love understanding behavior. There, there many things I do that I don’t understand why I did that or why I feel this way. So growing in my knowledge of like why people behave the way they do anything that can open up that field of mystery for me is something that I want to read. So I read a lot of like nonfiction, social behavior, sociology, behavioral science books, and yeah, that was one personally for me that, yeah, it was like five years of therapy. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:30] That’s awesome. Also, I love these books because the, and you know, it can be seen as naval gazing. And I always feel like I’m naval gazing, but the more I understand myself, and the more I figured this stuff out, the better we are at understanding our characters, right. This is part of our job. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:33:45] A 100% agree. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:46] That’s so cool. Okay, so tell us now where we can find you out in the world and especially where we can find Vega and where we can subscribe to your newsletter list.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:33:55] Yes. Okay. So you can find Vega on any pod-catcher. Well not any, but most of the big ones, iTunes, Spotify, Google, Vega podcast. Oh, sorry, Vega: A Sci-Fi Adventure Podcast, exclamation point. 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:09] I like the exclamation point.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:11] Yeah. Cause it’s an adventure! And then you can find that show on Twitter @VegaPodcast and you can also find it on Instagram. There you can find me on Instagram(IvuomaOkoro) and Twitter @IvuomaOkoro. I’ll be there and you can find the newsletter at Ivuomatellsstories.com 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:35] Awesome. And Ivuoma spelled I-V-U-O-M-A 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:38] That’s it. Yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:34:40] Thank you Ivuoma it has been such a treat and a delight to find you. And now, you know, this is why I do the show is because now I can go out and suck you and follow everything you do. So, you know,

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:50] I will do the same. 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:54] You’re, you’re more interesting than I am. I can guarantee you that. Thank you Ivuoma, so much. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:59] Thank you, Rachael. 

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.