Elizabeth Kay works in the publishing industry under a different name. She lives in London and has a first-class degree in English literature.
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Transcript
Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.
[00:00:15] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode 188 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. So thrilled you’re here with me today, as we are talking to Elizabeth Kay, who wrote a phenomenal novel called Seven Lies. And she, which I learned during our interview, is actually an editor and kind of came into writing from that standpoint, so it’s a fascinating interview. I think you’re really gonna enjoy it. Hope you, hope that you do, I’m sure that you will. And just a quick catch up on what’s going on around here, I am just revising again. I live in revision land. It’s wonderful. And it’s hard. And I think that I’m at the point with this book where I just want maybe to be writing a different book. We all get to that point where we’re like, Oh God, I don’t want to look at this scene even one more time and I need to, this is the fourth revision that I’m doing for my editor. And when I get to a scene, I’m like welcome friend, good grief! Back again. I will say something. I got pro writing aid, I had used Grammarly for a long time to kind of check to see, I am really, really bad at doubling words or leaving words out. I type very fast and my brain goes too fast and I usually like, one word every three sentences is left out and it’s often an important word. So Grammarly was helping me with that. However, I tried pro writing aid, which was cheaper to buy outright and have it forever than it was to have Grammarly. And I just tested it out this week with a Patreon essay. And it was very, very helpful. [00:02:03] While I was looking at my revisions of my book yesterday, I tried putting in a chapter to use pro writing aid and it was overwhelming. It actually got me way too far into the minutiae of editing. And I’m not quite there yet. I’m still dealing with some character issues and some plot issues. So I need to back out. But I know that at the very last, the very last point, when I’m about to send it to my editor, I will run it through pro writing aid, which I like a lot more than Grammarly, especially for it pointing out unwieldy sentences and words or phrases that you have repeated too many times. I’ve got a pretty good ear for repeats now, it used to be terrible when I started this game, I would use the word bus, you know, twice in a paragraph or whatever. And I wouldn’t hear that you don’t want to use the same word two or three times close together on a page. It’s hard to see, that’s what editors see for you. So don’t worry about that if you can’t see it, but it is nice to also have a program that will point it out to you. [00:03:06] So, that was fun! In other big news, it’s my birthday weekend, it’s the 4th of July weekend as I record this. And I did something really fun today for my birthday. I went out into open water and swam in the Bay. I got a wetsuit, I got it for my birthday, for myself, online and I put it on and a friend met me out there and kind of taught me how to sight as we swim, because it’s a different experience. You have to raise your head to sight where you’re going and to breathe. Combining the two moves when I am just used to, you know, breathing on the side and looking down at a lane marker, it’s very, very different. I got a little bit dizzy because it was choppy out on the Bay today and I loved every single second of it. I absolutely loved it. I am now an open water swimmer and so for my birthday, I am going out at 9:30 AM with a group and they swim every week in Berkeley. They swim three times a week. They just go out into the Bay and swim and it’s the Bay, it’s just there. It’s, it’s a little dirty and it’s a little, the ground is slimy, and it’s okay. It was so fun. I am such a water baby. I just want to have my body in water all the time. I always wanted to surf. Because I wanted just to sit on the surf board, I never wanted to actually surf or get in line or deal with other people who are waiting in line to catch the, the surfing wave. I also didn’t want a huge board that could hit me the head, none of that. And I realized recently that no, I just wanted to go out in the ocean and hang out and you can do that in a wetsuit. It’s a buoyant. You just kind of get tired of, of swimming, just kind of kick back and look up at the sky or roll around. It was so much fun. So I am a new convert and I’m kind of obsessed and I can’t wait to go for my second time. So that is what’s exciting around here, nothing to do with writing, but outside hobbies are fantastic for our writing. Right? I hope that you are getting some work done. Please come to wherever I am online and tell me about it. I really love to hear from you all. And now we’re just gonna jump right into the interview with Elizabeth Kay. Please enjoy and happy writing to you. [00:05:26] Hey, you’re a writer. Did you know that I send out a free weekly email of writing encouragement? Go sign up for it at www.rachaelherron.com/write and you’ll also get my Stop Stalling and Write PDF with helpful tips you can use today to get some of your own writing done. Okay, now onto the interview.Rachael Herron: [00:05:44] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show. Elizabeth Kay. Hello, Elizabeth!
Elizabeth Kay: [00:05:49] Hello! Thank you so much for having me.
Rachael Herron: [00:05:52] Oh, I’m thrilled. I loved your book, we’re going to talk about that. Just a little introduction, Elizabeth Kay works in the publishing industry under a different name. She lives in London and has a first class degree in English literature, and Elizabeth, your book Seven Lies as we record, it comes out tomorrow. Is that right?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:06:08] It does. Yes. It’s been out in the UK for a couple of months now, but out in the US tomorrow.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:13] Okay. That is so exciting. We were just talking off air a little bit. This is your debut novel and you are the, the really, the “it” girl right now. Does it feel like that?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:06:29] No, actually, maybe it’s partly locked down as well. I feel like I’m in a little bubble in the middle of nowhere, in a way. But the whole thing has been really exciting. I mean, I’m so thrilled to see it published here and I’m with you guys. So, it’s a whirlwind.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:46] It’s one of those that I, I get a lot offers from publicists on books and I don’t always have the time to read the books, but your book looks so compelling that I picked it up and I just could not put it down. It was one of those, you have a long list of people who blurbed it so beautifully and it’s worth every blurb. I just could not stop turning the pages, so,
Elizabeth Kay: [00:07:09] Oh, thank you so much.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:10] Have you always been drawn to the thriller genre?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:07:15] No. Well, no, actually the first thriller I really read was Gone Girl,
Rachael Herron: [00:07:19] Okay.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:07:20] So not that long ago
Rachael Herron: [00:07:20] Yeah
Elizabeth Kay: [00:07:21] when that came out, and but I mean, what a place to start
Rachael Herron: [00:07:24] Yes
Elizabeth Kay: [00:07:25] And since then I’ve been, it’s definitely what I read more than anything else, you know? And there’s been, I mean, there’ve been so many good novels in that space in the last few years. You’ll never short of it. That’s a great book if that’s your area.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:37] Never short and if you know, once you get a couple of friends who do the texting back and forth, Oh, I got another one. You got to read this one. And your book was one of those that I’ve been telling all of my tight thriller reader friends to read.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:07:49] Oh good.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:50] But let’s talk about your writing process, cause that’s what we do on this show. So what is, what is your writing process look like? How did you get this done? I’m assuming, do you have another job in the industry on the side?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:08:02] Yeah, so I work Monday to Friday, as an editor for payment random house in the UK. So this is very much a weekend project. This was a Saturday, Sundays, for about nine months, six to nine months as my first draft. And it was basically, I found that if I got dressed for the day, then I have to start the day. So as long as I stayed in my pajamas, it was easy to just pretend I was in kind of a weird limbo between night and day, where I would just sit down and write for a good few hours. So that was my process for getting the bulk of this novel, this novel done.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:36] That is so, so clever. I love that little hack and I, I didn’t realize that you were an editor there. What kind of literature do you edit at Penguin?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:08:46] I work quite a lot. I do keep you through this, but not very many, but some kind of book, club-fiction and lots of nonfiction as well. So a real mix.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:54] How did it feel coming to this book with your editor’s hat- were you able to take the editor’s hat off for the first draft?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:09:02] No, I’m terrible. I’m terrible at taking my editor hat off and I much prefer, once I’ve done the first draft, I’m much happier kind of fiddling and playing around and free working. I find the first bit of real slog. I’m trying to watch that word count, go up really slowly. And I had, I’d worked on a few novels before this, tried to write things and nothing had ever felt that exciting. So in a way, with this book, I wrote the first chapter and it’s in the voice of Jane whose main character, and once I had her, this felt so much easier. I actually, I would almost say I enjoyed the first draft with this one
Rachael Herron: [00:09:38] Oh my goodness.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:10:39] Which I really liked. I like being in her head. So that made it a lot easier but, says me, the editor in me was always having to make her be quiet.
Rachael Herron: [00:09:51] The, without giving any spoilers, of course, the end actually surprised me and I have a harder and harder time finding that in books as we, as we push envelopes, and as we write everything we possibly can, and I read all the thriller, everything and your ending surprised me both what it was and how it was done. Did you, this is just a curiosity on Rachael’s part question. Did you know the ending when you were writing toward it or did it come to you later?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:10:20] I knew from the very near the beginning where the ending was set, and sort of the bones of what was going to happen. The kind of the detail took a lot longer. I think that’s probably the bit that had the most drafts. I wrote, I would say probably at least 10, maybe 15 different versions of the ending with black, not huge changes, but different characters in different places, slightly different ways to twist it. And it was certainly the bit that I found most challenging. So I’m glad it was a surprise because I agree with you. That’s, you know, it’s hard to do something that does shock people, I think.
Rachael Herron: [00:10:56] Yeah. I think, I think it is. And you did something really creative with tents and at the very end where it was just, I had to like go back and check to see how you had done it. So good job ‘yo!
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:05] Thank you.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:06] What, what is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:10] Certainly it, it’s the editor in me mostly, but, I had a baby at the beginning of the year. So now it’s time. I used to be able to, in a way I think, well, I’m just having to be stricter.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:21] Yeah
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:22] If I have two hours, I write and I try and write fast. I don’t have time for the editor anymore, she’s gone. Get the words down.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:29] So, and is this your first baby?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:22] Yes.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:29] So how interesting to have this happen after you’d written all of this what, you know, maternal stuff?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:39] Yeah. So it’s kind of, I don’t, I haven’t read my book since I’ve had my son.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:43] Yeah
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:44] I wonder if it would make me feel differently.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:46] I don’t know. It’s like-
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:49] I might do it and see what I feel.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:51] What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:11:53] Actually, for me, it’s been people saying, I thought it was kind of the editing bits and in a way it is, but it’s also people saying, Oh, you know, I’ve, I’ve told my mum she has to read it or I’ve suggested it to my book club. It’s really exciting to have people want to share it and want to talk. I think that’s the thing I love about reading when I finish a book and I want to say, you’ve got to read this cause I have to speak to someone
Rachael Herron: [00:12:15] Yes
Elizabeth Kay: [00:12:16] and for people to be doing that about my book, it’s just a real joy because that’s, those are the books that really like, I really love when I want to do that. I know it’s been a great read.
Rachael Herron: [00:12:25] That’s a- that’s a really beautiful way to show love I think too, between, you know, family members or friends who are doing that. I, my, my mom, it was always my best person that all got all of my books. And she sent me all the books that she loved the most and that, and that hole has never been quite filled. Like I have other people, well, this is my thriller person. This is my club person. But, but yeah, no, that’s beautiful. Can you share a craft tip of any sort with us?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:12:51] Well, in terms of silencing your inner editor, one of the things I did a lot last time, and I can see myself having to do again, working on a book 2, is turning the font to the color white as you’re typing. So you can’t see what you’re writing you just- as long as you can type fairly, fairly well, not too many typos. It’s a good way to kind of just write two or three pages. So everything I’m talking to myself, there’s no way I’m thinking it, stop going back and saying, no one would ever say that, or that would never happen. Well, that sounds really messy. Just keep going. And then once you’ve done a chunk, you can turn it back to a black font or whatever color you work with first and read through it
Rachael Herron: [00:13:26] That’s genius.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:13:27] and see if it works.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:29] I’ve heard so many other tips and tricks about, you know, make it too small, so your eye can’t see it or, or, you know, close your eyes, but the white just works and you can probably still see where the cursor is, right?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:13:40] Yes. And you can see the pages going,
Rachael Herron: [00:13:29] Right
Elizabeth Kay: [00:13:40] which is very satisfying.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:45] Satisfying and also I, I always worried that, like, if I couldn’t see it or close my eyes, I would worry that I’d clicked away and I’m not actually writing, you know, in the wrong window or something
Elizabeth Kay: [00:13:54] Yeah, you can see the cursor, you can see that there are red lines underneath every time you’ve made a typo, but you can’t read the words. And you can’t see
Rachael Herron: [00:14:05] That’s genius.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:13:54] The length of your paragraph, so any of your grammars, you have to ignore all of those bits and just think about the story for a few pages.
Rachael Herron: [00:14:12] I am loving that. Thank you. That just blew my mind and I can hear it blowing the minds of the listeners. So, thank you. That’s brilliant.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:14:20] You have to try
Rachael Herron: [00:14:21] Yes, absolutely. Oh my goodness. Okay. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:14:29] I think probably, probably my mood. I find, there are some chap- sometimes I’ll be writing a chapter and I think I just can’t write this now, or I’ll be in a really bad mood or pretty cross about something. And I think I’m going to go write that, that chapter I know needs to come soon. It’s a really angry one. I’ll go do that now. I’m not very good at kind of silencing myself to put on a different pair of glasses or a different coat, and far better to follow where I’m at.
Rachael Herron: [00:14:56] So you use it, you use the mood to do what
Elizabeth Kay: [00:14:59] I tried to
Rachael Herron: [00:15:00] you need to do.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:15:01] Yeah
Rachael Herron: [00:15:02] That’s so clever, when I’m in a-
Elizabeth Kay: [00:15:03] I don’t think you can write a love scene if you’re in a really cross mood,
Rachael Herron: [00:14:06] No
Elizabeth Kay: [00:15:06] maybe other people can try, but I can’t.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:08] I’ve tried. I’ve tried. I cannot. It does not work. That’s so much smarter usually when I’m in a grumpy mood, I just stop things and avoid the page completely.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:15:17] Well, that works as well. Sometimes I have to walk away.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:20] It feels pretty good. I got to tell you, I just turned in a revision to my editor four days ago, so I’m still like, high on the fumes of being done, so
Elizabeth Kay: [00:15:31] And having a creative time where you’re like, it’s not my job anymore. It’s someone else’s job for a little bit.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:35] Unfortunately, my editor is, I don’t know about you, but she’s one of those people, she’ll get it back to me in a week.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:15:39] Oh so you got to make the most of it
Rachael Herron: [00:15:44] She’s horrible. So just know that as an editor, we love it when you say, Oh, I hope to get to it in the next six weeks. No, you can take eight. You can take twelve. I don’t care. Yeah. Okay. What is the best book that you’ve read recently? And why did you love it?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:15:58] I have just finished reading, Shari Lapena’s a new novel, Shari Lapena, Shari Lapina, which is called The End of Her. It’s out in the UK next month. I think it’s probably similar in the US. Which is another, if you’ve read The Couple Next Door or any of her other books, this is another brilliant suburb and thriller, great characters, love to hate most of them, lots of good twist, really fast paced. So it’s very much fun to look out for.
Rachael Herron: [00:16:25] Perfect. I really- she’s Canadian, right?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:16:27] Yeah, she is.
Rachael Herron: [00:16:28] Yeah. I’ve never heard the term suburban thriller. I’ve heard domestic thriller, but I really liked the term suburban thriller because that’s really what hers.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:16:36] And they’re always like mini – aren’t they?
Rachael Herron: [00:16:38] Yeah, absolutely.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:16:39] So neighbors, all of that.
Rachael Herron: [00:16:41] I love that. Thank you. And will you tell us a little bit like your elevator pitch of Seven Lies and tell us a little bit about it.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:16:50] Okay. So it is, it’s the story of two friends, Jane and Marnie, who’ve known each other since they were 11. It’s the seven lies that Jane tells to Marnie, which gets more and more sinister as the novel moves on and which results in a death near the middle of the novel. And far darker things further on.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:09] I loved, I talked to my students a lot about that context shifting midpoint. And when you use that midpoint of, we will not name who died, but somebody died, and I was like, yes, that’s a perfect place. Death is always a good thing to put in the midpoint.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:17:21] I think that you should start in the middle. That’s what I always say, it works out well, when what happens in the middle first?
Rachael Herron: [00:17:26] Yes. When I remember to do that, it works well. Usually I do not.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:17:30] I’m on my own. I’m always forgetting all the good advice that people telling me.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:35] So are you in the process right now of writing book two?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:17:38] I am writing a couple of book 2, it’s to see which one works best.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:42] Oh, good for you.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:17:44] See which one fit. And I’m kind of flashing out a few first chapter to see whether one of them feels strong enough.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:51] I love that. Yay! All right, and where can people find you?
Elizabeth Kay: [00:17:55] They can find me if they’d like to, I’d love to hear from anyone who reads the book, if people will enjoy it or have a question I’m at AnyOtherLizzy on Twitter and Instagram AnyOtherLizzy. So come find me there.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:06] Perfect. Thank you, thank you so very much for this interview and thanks for a book that puts spring in my step again, when I, when it comes to the thriller genre. So thank you.
Elizabeth Kay: [00:18:18] Thank you for having me.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:19] Welcome.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:20] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/
Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.
Join me.
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