Ep. 183: Jennie Nash on Harnessing the Power of Jealousy

Jennie Nash is the founder of Author Accelerator, a business that has trained more than 50 book coaches to support writers through the entire creative process of completing a book. Jennie started her career on staff at Random House and has spent 30 years on all sides of the publishing industry. In her time as a book coach, her clients have landed top New York agents and book deals with houses such as Scribner, Simon & Schuster, and Hachette. Jennie is the author of 9 books, 5 of which were published by Big 5 publishers. She has taught for 12 years in the UCLA Extension Writer’s Program and spoken at writing conferences all over the country. Her guest posts have appeared on popular writing sites including The Write Life, Writers Helping Writers, and The Book Designer.

Show link: Go visit Jennie for the free goodies at https://www.authoraccelerator.com/rachael

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing.

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #183 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron.

[00:00:22] So pleased that you’re here with me today. Today, I have a super exciting and vibrant conversation with my new best friend, Jennie Nash, who is a force in the publishing industry. She’s a force as a writer. She’s a force as a book coach. And also, we just found out that while we were talking, we were basically the same person in different bodies in different locations. And, it was- sometimes I run into people like that. I’m like, oh no, that’s no, but with her, I was just delighted to see perhaps some of my best qualities are reflected back at me. Instead of those people that you meet, where you’re like, “Oh God, I am like that. Ah, crap.” Jennie is not that. Jennie is gorgeous, wonderful, awesome. You’re gonna love listening to her. 

[00:01:11] So we’ll get into that in a moment, a little bit of a catch up around here. I am far behind. I’m not- yeah, I’m pretty far behind. I got my revision letter back, I told you that. And then I have just proceeded to screw off. I, I am so talented at knowing at a very visceral subconscious level, the very last moment I can have before hitting a point where I won’t make that deadline if I don’t work hard. And for some reason I always walk right up to it, even when I am trying not to, even when I’m trying to get all the words done ahead of time, I still can push a deadline to its max. So I think I’ve got like 15 more days for this editor’s revision, and this is the big one. This is, you know, the take it apart again and put it back together in a different way. I am making it less emotional and more stabby, more tension, more thriller. So I keep forgetting that I keep having them have these beautiful, emotional, poignant moments between the women in this story. And then I’m like, no, it’s gotta be scary. It’s gotta be scary externally, not just deep and scary inside the heart, it’s gotta be both. So I’m trying to get all of that done and it’s not easy, but I’m trying. Everything else is going very well. It just, I just, I’m still liking this staying at home thing and I, I do admit it. I really like it. I just had a thought today that if and when the world goes, it’ll never go back to normal, but when it opens up more and we are able to see people, I think I’m going to restrict myself to seeing people once a week, that will make me choose very carefully, who I see. And when I see them back in the old days, I would usually have four to seven gatherings of some sort. I have a lot of friends and I really love them. But I can get a lot of that socializing through email, through texts, through phone calls, through Markopolos. Markopolos is an app I really like, and I don’t always need in person. I really like this expansive time to stay at home and work and work in the garden and read books. And I’m, I don’t know, that might be a rule I put down. I want to see people, but I want to keep it more limited than I was. I want more boundaries when we come out of this, I want more ability to say no to the things that don’t matter as much and always saying yes to the things that matter most, that is my goal. I don’t know how that’s going to shake out, but that’s, that’s my goal. 

[00:04:09] Another thing that has hit me is another book, another book has hit me over the head. I have been trying to figure out how to tell the story about recovery from addiction. Everybody’s got a story about recovery from addiction, you know that. So I want this one to be a little bit different and I think I may, last night, have kind of cracked the spine of it, figured out what I want it to be. Which is more than just about addiction. It’s really about living genuinely and with full acceptance of who you are at this moment without trying to change because I really do believe that I am everything I need to be right now. I believe that you are everything you need to be right now. Any of us having more of things is not going to change who we are and it’s not going to change our happiness level. Probably there’s definitely exceptions to all of this if you’re living at or below the poverty line. Yeah. Having more money will help, but we all know that study that if you make more than $73,000 a year or something like that, you can’t get happier with money. Money will not make you any happier. It’s, yeah. So this one I’m thinking about a new book somewhere around those ideas. So I’m playing with that, and I don’t know where it will fit into my life. I still want to write that women’s fiction next. I just kind of feel very much like writing all the time, right now. That’s something that quarantine has given me. I haven’t felt this way in a really long time that every spare moment I want to be writing that is not like me. I have started journaling again in a really big, deep way and I realized that I usually only journal really deeply journal when I’m traveling and, and we’re traveling right now. This is a unique experience for everybody on the globe. And it does feel like some kind of a journey and I’m very, very drawn to capturing what’s going on around me. Not for any reason, not to package up and sell, just because I need to get these words out of my mind and onto the page. So I was actually talking to Jeff Adams of Jeff and Will, the other day. He’s going to be guest hosting with me on the Writers’ Well, next week. And he showed me his record book that is not as dirty as it came out of my mouth but do you have a record book? I want to know. I ordered one, they’re like $30 and it’s, you can save your digital handwriting. I really liked journaling and then I’m always like, I’m never gonna see this book again, but if it’s online as well, that’s like a double backup. Not like anybody ever wants to read my journal, even myself, but I do like thinking about it being backed up. So I ordered a record book and that should be fun to play with. 

[00:07:08] Wow. I am just going kind of all over the place today. What other all over the place should I tell you about? I think that’s about it. I would love to say thanks some new patrons, because it has been a while since I remembered to do this. So this is going back like more than month. Thomas Makanen, it is always wonderful to have you as a patron. That’s awesome. Amanda, thank you. Oh, maybe I have to thank these people. Cause I remember thanking Amanda. Amanda, you’re the best. Janine Gurman for editing your pledge up. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody who is supposed to get those texts from me, I am over the limit for the text service and I’m trying to find a different service. So if you’re not getting that, don’t worry. I’m trying to fix it. A new patron, Megan Kroll and Jennifer Harris and Jill and Naomi Stenberg. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much to all of you. It really is and makes the difference in my being able to write those essays from which come these book ideas and whole books. 

[00:08:15] So if you would like to check out any of those essays on living the creative life, you can always go to patreon.com/rachael R, A, C, H, A, E, L, and check those out. And I really, really, really appreciate you. That’s caught up. My desk is covered in Tootsie roll pops because apparently this revision is taking Tootsie roll pops. If Tootsie roll pop is not in my mouth, I am not revising. And that’s the way it’s going to be. And I like it. And yes, let’s jump into the interview now with Jennie Nash. I know you’re going to enjoy it. Please, please get some of your own writing done and find me anywhere online and tell me about it. I love hearing about it and I believe in you. Okay, happy writing. 

[00:09:04] Hey, do you want to do more writing? on Zoom with a group of people that you like? Well, you should join rachaelsayswrite. We write together on Tuesday mornings from 5:00 to 7:00 AM Pacific standard time, 8:00 to 10:00 AM Eastern standard time. This one works for you, Europeans. And on Thursdays from 4:00 to 6:00 PM Pacific standard time, 7:00 to 9:00 Eastern standard time, New Zealand and Australia, this one’s for you. And for just $39 a month, you can write with us in Zoom. It’s like 16 hours for a month, it’s like $2 an hour to sit in a Zoom room with really cool people and spy on them while they’re writing and let them spy on you while you’re writing, they’ll get to see your true writer space and there is nothing more intimate than that. Honestly, you guys, it’s such a good time. Go to rachaelherron.com/write or rachaelsayswrite to find out more about joining. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:03] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, Jennie Nash. Hi Jennie! How are you?

Jennie Nash: [00:10:09] I’m so happy to be here. I’m well, thank you. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:12] Good. Let me give you a little introduction so we can talk about all the things you do. Jennie Nash is the founder of Author Accelerator, a business that has trained more than 50 book coaches to support writers through the entire creative process of completing a book. Jennie started her career on staff at Random House and has spent 30 years on all sides of the publishing industry. In her time as a book coach, her clients have landed top New York agents and book deals with houses such as Scribner, Simon & Schuster, and Hachette. Jennie is the author of 9 books, 5 of which were published by Big 5 publishers. She has taught for 12 years in the UCLA Extension Writer’s Program and spoken at writing conferences all over the country. Her guest posts have appeared on popular writing sites including The Write Life, Writers Helping Writers, and The Book Designer. And just before we got on there, we were kind of telling each other how nice it is to talk to somebody else who does all of the things. You do all of the things-

Jennie Nash: [00:11:10] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:11:11] like I do. I teach at the Accenture programs at Berkeley and Stanford and what else was I gonna say? Oh, I was looking at your book roster. You write all the genres, you write women’s fiction and memoir and nonfiction about writing that and I’ve heard your name for so long in the publishing industry, which is why I’m so excited to have you on the show because they do get people who want to be on the show because they have written a book about writing, but they have no other books, you know, 

Jennie Nash: [00:11:39] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:11:40] When you run into those people and you are this book coach among, you know, you’re the book coach of the book coaches, because you know how to write, because you’ve done all this stuff, which is why I’m so happy to have you on the show about process, how let’s just open it way up. How do you do it all? You have children, you have family. I just have a wife and no kids. So how do you do it?

Jennie Nash: [00:12:02] Well, my kids are grown, so it doesn’t count. I mean, I just kind of work like a dog. That’s the honest truth of it. I just do I work all the time. I-I, people sometimes say like, are you, do you have super powers? And it’s like, no, I just work all the time. And that, you know, there’s upsides to that and downsides to that, which we could talk about. But I, I just kind of refuse to give up anything. I want to do all the things I’m just greedy. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:30] I might just take this and we’ve got the questions I always ask. But I might wanna go a little freeform with this too. What do you give up when you have to give something up?

Jennie Nash: [00:12:41] I mean the honest truth is I will give up my health. I will, I will give up myself too. I get migraines and I will hurt myself

Rachael Herron: [00:12:51] Me too! 

Jennie Nash: [00:12:52] Stop it!

Rachael Herron: [00:12:53] I know that I am working too hard when a migraine knocks me all the way to that’s how I go out. I work until a migraine knocks me to the ground. Yeah. 

Jennie Nash: [00:13:00] Okay. So you know what I’m talking about? Like a migraine is not just, I’m going to take some Advil 

Rachael Herron: [00:13:06] Oh no

Jennie Nash: [00:13:07] and feel better. Migraine is like, yeah. It’s like, you have to get under the covers in darkness and not have anyone speak to you and you can’t eat and you can’t

Rachael Herron: [00:13:17] Yep

Jennie Nash: [00:13:18] listen to anything and you’re out. And yeah. So I tell my body’s dead and it’s not something I recommend 

Rachael Herron: [00:13:26] strangely enough.

Jennie Nash: [00:13:30] But that’s the truth of it. And, and I’m trying, I mean, I’ve had them for 28 years. So when I say I’m trying, it’s not a new thing, but it’s, it’s, I love to work. I like to card, I don’t want to give up, like you said, what do you give up? And I say the trainers all the time, what are you going to give up? Because you can’t have a clean house and, you know, make perfect meals and do all the things and have time to write. And so I’m constantly helping them make those choices. And then I don’t actually make them my own self. I just try to do it all. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:03] I think you may be my new favorite person and my, my, my twin and soul, because that is what I do. I tell everybody to give up something and I don’t give up anything. And that does come at the expense of my own health and snapping at my wife, for example, you know, she’ll get the short end of the stick right there. Yeah, 

Jennie Nash: [00:14:24] Yeah, yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:26] Yeah. She, she adores that when I’m like on deadline and starting through classes like I was last week, so. Well,

Jennie Nash: [00:14:28] That’s interesting so that’s the thing you give up is like peace in your home. And I would do the same thing. I would yell and snap at the people I love. And, and-

Rachael Herron: [00:14:36] And then I would-

Jennie Nash: [00:14:37] Yeah, it’s not okay. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:39] It’s not okay. And then I blame it on how busy I am. And she always says, whose fault is that? And she’s

Jennie Nash: [00:14:47] Oh my gosh. My, my daughter who’s teaching seventh grade is living with me right now in this shutdown. And we have a little snippy fight recently because she was like, I just, I just gotta get to June 15th. Cause then they have summer teachers have summer and look, teachers work so hard. I’m not even kidding how hard she works. It’s relentless, like every day and it’s just, you’re in it and you’re in it and it’s horrible. And, but she said summer, and I said something like, well, at least you get it. And, and she just looked at me and she said, you could have a summer if you wanted mom as like, you know, like, I can’t like, I don’t- a rules don’t apply to me. I’ve could, I could work a straight that I’m in charge of my own destiny, but I don’t 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:35] Not, not that I buy into any of this stuff, but what is your star sign? What is your astrological? 

Jennie Nash: [00:15:40] Oh, Gemini. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:41] Oh, okay. I’m a cancer. All right. At least we don’t have that, at least we can’t blame it all on something other worldly. So, so when you are writing your own books and when you’re not coaching, what is your writing process? What does that look like? 

Jennie Nash: [00:15:51] So I don’t have a habitual practice, I write in bursts and I write in fits and starts. And I kind of, it’s almost like fever, fever writing. So I, it’s hard for me to say exactly when I do it, or, but I love writing at night. I love writing late at night and I love writing like Saturday morning is the dream when nobody’s going to email or text or call or knock on my door or ask me anything. So I like to get up early and write and like to stay up late and write. And it’s all about just avoiding the, the wave of demands. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:32] I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody say that so concretely, but Saturday morning is a delight to work. That is so, so true.

Jennie Nash: [00:16:40] Right?

Rachael Herron: [00:16:41] Yeah. I hadn’t actually, I usually try not to, but yeah. 

Jennie Nash: [00:16:45] Well, I love, another thing I always tell my writers that I don’t do, is I’m saying there’s no cabin in the woods. And by that, I mean, you’re not going to get the fellowship where they bring you lunch in a basket and you go off the grid for three months. And you get to write your book and, and you do it in three months. Like that’s not happening for you, that you have to make your own time in your own life and your own way. I’m always saying that and talking about that. And yet the way I write best is when I get those kind of clearings, you know, this kind of like white space on the calendar, I’ll, I’ll be like, Ooh, and I can dive in and, and write it. But I, I’m really bad at actually blocking that time. And I, and I like would like to be better, 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:35] But the thing is, I’m going to push back on that just a little bit, is that your process works and you’re getting books done 

Jennie Nash: [00:17:41] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:17:42] and you are making, you would like a cabin in the woods when we all, and you make that in the white space on your calendar. Whereas for white space, for me, doesn’t work personally, because then I go watch Netflix or garden or something. I do anything, but write. So it works for you. Your method has worked.

Jennie Nash: [00:17:56] It does, it does work for me. And I’ve actually really deeply loved the shutdown because I- oh you have?

Rachael Herron: [00:18:05] I’m passionate about it. I don’t ever want it to change. I hate it for how bad it is. I hate everything about it for medically and all that. But yeah, 

Jennie Nash: [00:18:14] I- I’m sad we have to go back because what I realized is that the, the energy, the calendar energy, I call it. So like, are you free on Saturday night? Can you come at 6? Should we do it at 7? I don’t know. Maybe we should do it Sunday night. Like that, just that energy or, Ooh, the person I want to hear in concert is coming. How much are the tickets should we do with the balcony? Or should we do the thing? And should we go like. I love that all being out of my life. And I’m 

Jennie Nash: [00:18:41] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:18:42] And I – Right? That’s social energy. I mean, I love my friends and my family and, and all of it, but I, and what I find is that I am so eager to work that I’m like, if I get to an evening and there’s nothing to, that we have to go do, or that we’re plan to go do, I just want to work. So I, I it’s weird how much I like it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:11] I like most of my parts of my job, except for first drafts. I really, I struggled with the first draft or are you a first drafter or are you more of a reviser? Are you in all things? 

Jennie Nash: [00:19:21] I like all the things. I mean, I, I like all of the things I, I draft really quickly. I, I revise really intentionally. I like, I like all the, I like all the things I do. I do.

Rachael Herron: [00:19:37] and that makes you a perfect book coach of book coaches. What is, what is your biggest challenge then when it comes to writing? 

Jennie Nash: [00:19:48] Gosh. Really it’s just finding the time. I mean, I mean, with the writing itself, I- I’ve taught writing so much and I help people so much. I think I’ve internalized a lot of the things that, you know, it’s like the things I help other people with that they don’t do well is putting boundaries around your idea, really defining what that idea is going to be. Maybe saving that for another book or maybe saving that taken out subplot out cause it doesn’t fit, or like the structural decision-making and the shape, the shape of things. I have so many of those conversations all the time. I think I’ve internalized internalize those. So when I sit down to write, I tend to, I tend to just be, know what to do. 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:36] That’s a good feeling. 

Jennie Nash: [00:20:39] It’s such a good feeling. 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:40] Yeah. 

Jennie Nash: [00:20:41] It’s, it’s such a good feeling. I find such enormous peace in the writing process. I feel like, feel like I recognize my voice that’s been with me my whole life and it felt like coming home and it, it just feels like, Oh, here, here I am. You know, and that’s my favorite part of it. So the challenge is that part of it is so strong that the challenge has almost don’t matter cause I want to get to that feeling 

Rachael Herron: [00:21:12] That is gorgeous. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing then? It sounds like you have a lot of joys to choose from 

Jennie Nash: [00:21:20] I mean, it’s that, it’s that. It’s that coming home. It’s like, here I am. This is me. I’m, I’m, I’m in it. And even if I have 10 minutes to write something I can get into that space and it feels wholly my own. I mean that, that’s the thing about writing, right? We’re in charge. We were the ones or the boss. 

Rachael Herron: [00:21:42] Is there a genre that you feel more at home? And for me, I sink into my bones, even in first drafts I love being inside my body when I’m writing a memoir or creative nonfiction of any sort. Fiction, I struggle more with first drafts, but is there a genre that you feel most at home in?

Jennie Nash: [00:21:59] I would say that it is memoir as well. And I- I’ve had an interesting experience with my newsletter, I, for a long time doing it for a long time. And I have a pretty nice following and I used to be super craft-based as I can, all the craft lessons and all the how to’s and you know, strategy. And, and then I started paying attention to what people liked, imagine that, and every time I would write something. It was usually when I was laid on my deadline as, and I just had to whip something out and I just write some dumb thing in my mind about whatever, what I made for dinner or one of my kids or, you know, something people love them. And so more and more, I’ve just done that for that weekly thing. And it’s, it’s just- it’s, it’s just, there’s nothing like it. It’s so fun. Just writing about my own self and what I think.

Rachael Herron: [00:22:59] Right? It’s-

Jennie Nash: [00:23:02] Don’t you think?

Rachael Herron: [00:23:03] I really do. And I don’t know if you’re like me though, but honestly, you know we’re j- we’re joking about it, but, but I don’t really know what I think about things, until I put them on the page and explored them and written around them. And gotten to what I know. And I don’t know, I usually don’t know when I sit down, when I start writing about something, you know, I wrote something last night in my journal that has freaked me out and I’m like, Oh God, am I going to have to like, go there? Now do I have to go there? That I’ve said it. You know.

Jennie Nash: [00:23:32] Oh, see, that’s amazing. And, and yeah, I agree with that. That they’re it’s regulatory, but it’s also, you, you own it. There’s this authority like it’s so just you it’s a whole it’s, it’s yeah, I, I really it’s easy for me. All the other writing is harder. Yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:23:54] Oh, that’s so cool. Okay. So what oh, no. First of all, can you share a craft tip? Speaking of craft, with our listeners? 

Jennie Nash: [00:24:04] Yeah. I’m going to talk about revision, 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:06] Yey!

Jennie Nash: [00:24:07] By thinking love revision. Do you like revision?

Rachael Herron: [00:24:11] The best. I, the only reason I write is to get back into revision because I can write, I can revise 12 hours a day. I’m in heaven. I can’t stop. 

Jennie Nash: [00:24:18] Right? It’s so much fun. And it’s where the thing because becomes what it wants to be. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:24] Yes

Jennie Nash: [00:24:25] And so I love revision and I know a lot of people don’t like to talk about revision. And the thing the tip- the tip I would have to be, don’t revise in the same way you wrote. You have to do it in a different mind space, and that can be, you can do that physically, like you could do it in a different place than you write. You could, even just changing the font on your, on your main script or printing it out in a different font, and it falls on the page differently. Can put your- can make you just shift how you’re looking at it. And the whole thing that an editor does, you know, the joy of being edited is somebody else’s eyes around on your work and they’re bringing a different perspective to your work. So if you can do that for yourself, like get out of your head you wrote in, and look at it in a, just a different angle, a different way, a different viewpoint, you know, really trying to get a 360 view point on it. That’s the trick; is don’t just go to- the mistake I see so many people make is they think revision, well, there’s two things. I think revision is mine editing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:32] Yeah

Jennie Nash: [00:25:33] They think it’s fiddly little word- wordsmithing, and it, it’s not, it’s heavy lifting earth moving, you know? And then the second mistake they make is they just fall into that same rhythm or pattern that they did when they were writing. And then they, I’m sure you do this. I, this always cracks me up when I’m, when I’m reading my own stuff and you get into that thing, you’re like, Oh, this is good. Right? You’re just doing what you do when you write. Cause when you’re writing and you think that you don’t have to work on that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:09] Exactly

Jennie Nash: [00:26:10] So then you work on the next revision. So,

Rachael Herron: [00:26:12] Yeah I love that feeling, but that is one of the warning signs for me, in like a second draft or a third draft. If I’m really loving it, I have to pull back out of it. Like there’s something I might not be seeing yet in a fourth draft or a fifth draft, you might let yourself, you know, enjoy that little bit.

Jennie Nash: [00:26:28] Yeah, it’s take your writer’s hat off. Like literally I’m not a writer right now. I’m, I’m an editor I’m trying to be in my readers’ shoes. I’m trying to look at this from the outside. I’m trying to be analytic instead of, you know, creative just different perspective will make your revision process so much better. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:50] I love that. Thank you so, so much. And thank you for being on my side for revision. It’s magic, literally the magic of writing. So what thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?

Jennie Nash: [00:27:04] Oh, my gosh, I love this question so much because I have to answer the real thing and the real first thought I’m like, 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:10] Oh good. Good.

Jennie Nash: [00:27:04] When I first thought of it, I’m like oh, I don’t have to actually really answer it. The surprising thing that I find really motivating is jealousy. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:24] Oh! Tell me more. 

Jennie Nash: [00:27:26] I get so jealous. I get so jealous of everyone and everything for every reason you could possibly name. And I, and it’s not just a little jealous, it’s like rage. I’m like, I’m like rage jealous and it can just be like, if I read something I love and I’m just like, Oh, so good. And, and then I think I wish I had that idea

Rachael Herron: [00:27:51] Yes

Jennie Nash: [00:27:52] Like as if you could just take someone else’s idea or, you know, if somebody has a big success and, or some big lucky break, and I’ll think I could do that if I just had a lucky Bree, you know, like but I’ll, I’ll I think I even get jealous of my students that I teach. Like if they’re doing really well, I’ll get jealous of them. It’s bizarre. But I find it super motivating. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:22] I love that. I love that you’re talking about it because people don’t talk about it. It is one of those guilty things to be hidden away. Like we shouldn’t have jealousies. I just ranked low on the jealousy scale as a human being anyway. But the places where I find jealousy the most painful is when I am reading something that I know I couldn’t write because I’m not that writer. And I’m just so mad at myself 

Jennie Nash: [00:28:48] Or like or I’m not that good. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:51] I’m not that good at that. Oh yeah. I have it 

Jennie Nash: [00:28:53] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:28:54] all the time.

Jennie Nash: [00:28:56] Like I’m not that smart.

Rachael Herron: [00:28:57] Yeah

Jennie Nash: [00:28:58] I’m not that smart. I couldn’t have pulled that off. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:00] That’s actually one of my biggest ones, is I’m not that smart. Like 

Jennie Nash: [00:28:04] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:29:05] I’m working on finishing up a thriller right now. But I’m letting myself read thrillers, which is not a good idea. And all of the twists that are coming on, I’m like, I can’t do that. I can’t do my twists are stupid. 

Jennie Nash: [00:29:13] Right. Right.

Rachael Herron: [00:29:16] Yeah. 

Jennie Nash: [00:29:17] They’re all those, right. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that I feel that a lot that I’m, I’m not that smarter. I’m not that- it’s strange. It’s just a strange thing that I feel like I have no outside reason, external reason, no demonstrable reason that I should feel jealous. And I do well at what I do. And I’m successful in all things, but I, that’s what I feel. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:47] And instead of using it, instead of turning it into an opportunity for self-pity and getting into bed and pulling the covers over her head, which I’m also good at, you said you use it to motivate yourself. How, what does that look like? Does it mean, I’m just going to work that much harder?

Jennie Nash: [00:30:01] I mean, sadly, yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:02] Yeah, that’s great!

Jennie Nash: [00:30:04] I think that’s part of what drives, what the drive is, comes from is I’ll get angry or mad or jealous or needy or whatever the jealousy feels like. And, and then I’ll say, well I’ll show them or paying any attention to me, right. Or like, yeah. Like I’ll, I’m going to just work that much harder or apply myself that much more. So it, it gets me like that’s fire fuel for the fire.

Rachael Herron: [00:30:32] You’re harnessing it. You’re not just letting it be a distracting emotion and you’re actually harnessing it. And I really, really 

Jennie Nash: [00:30:39] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:30:40] love hearing that. Oh, my gosh. I think,

Jennie Nash: [00:30:42] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:30:43] I think I could talk to you all day about everything and I’m immediately signing up for your email newsletter, by the way. I know that 

Jennie Nash: [00:30:50] Oh no. Now you’re gonna be like, wow, she just chit-chats about her

Rachael Herron: [00:30:54] That’s all I do. And that’s what people love the best is when they talk, when people love talking about their real lives and fantastic. Okay. So what is the best book that you’ve read recently? And why did you love it? 

Jennie Nash: [00:31:07] So I tend to be behind everybody else because I read all day and I work with words all day. So I read very, very slowly. I love to read, but I, I’m always way behind. And I’ll say to people all the time, like, Oh, did you read whatever? And they look at me like, yeah, before the movie came out and I’m like, Oh, there was.

Rachael Herron: [00:31:27] I did that the other day. And they’re like the one that won the Pulitzer? Yeah. I read that five years ago. Exactly what happened, 

Jennie Nash: [00:31:37] Well I would just thread it like the way my mind was Daisy Jones in the sixth. Oh my gosh you don’t –

Rachael Herron: [00:31:45] I read it. I think I have on my list, but what did you love about it?

Jennie Nash: [00:31:49] Okay, it is just the most mind blowing thing. It’s Taylor Jenkins read and she basically recreated the story of Fleetwood Mac.

Rachael Herron: [00:31:58] Okay, so you’re saying, some kind of musician, right?

Jennie Nash: [00:32:02] Rock and roll, opera kind of thing. But the thing that just was extraordinary about it was he chose the structure that is the band members are telling an oral history of the band. So it’s a fake band and they’re telling fake oral history of the band. So that each band member it’s like six or seven or eight or 10, there’s a lot of characters. And there, they’re speaking to a, invisible host basically. I’m like a,

Rachael Herron: [00:32:31] like a reporter? 

Jennie Nash: [00:32:32] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:33] Oh okay

Jennie Nash: [00:32:34] And so there, there’s this weird perspective that talking at you, but you’re not who they’re talking to, but they- that’s the thing that I’m just like, I could never pull this off. Like it’s just extraordinary. And each voice is super distinct, but what’s just amazing about it is that they all contradict each other all the time. It’s like, it’s like, Oh, remember that show in Oslo where whatever happened? Oh no, that wasn’t Oslo. That was Berlin. Oh yeah. Remember in Mexico. And that happened and they’re telling the same thing and they’ve all got it wrong. And you’re just it’s so it’s like this. Edit page truth, that there is no truth and there is no memory, it’s just extraordinary and 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:19] That sounds gorgeous.  

Jennie Nash: [00:33:21] It’s beautiful. And that you think, you know what it’s about because it’s, it’s like this Stevie Nicks characters at the center. And, and you think, you know, it’s like a rise and fall to fame, you think, okay, I got this, but it turns out really not to be that, it’s about something else. And that’s something else that emerges while the story unfolds. And he kind of begins to tickle in the back of your mind. And then it comes super clear at the end, what it, what it was really about and like a twist to it. And it- it’s just, it’s just masterful. I just cannot, I’m just obsessed with it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:53] I am going to read it cause it’s either in this stack right here, or it’s on my Kindle in my TBR pile. But I will confess to you since we are being so open and honest with each other while you were talking about it, I felt an identified a twinge of, Oh, that’s a great framing device. I could never have thought of that framing device, you know? 

Jennie Nash: [00:34:13] Right. That’s exactly it. And, and people underestimate the power of structure 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:20] Yes

Jennie Nash: [00:34:21] of how you’re going to paint this material. So here’s this idea like I, and I, and after I read it, I do this one I’m obsessed with something. I go read everything about it. Like all the interviews. And all the things and, and Reese Witherspoon actually did buy the movie, right? 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:35] Of course she did. Cause she’s so buying the best stuff.

Jennie Nash: [00:34:41] Right, and somebody is gonna write the music that’s fake music for this fake band, which like, do you love that? 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:46] I’m actually in a yacht rock band called Sausalito. So I sing a lot of Fleetwood masks. So I’m definitely on board for this entire entirely. 

Jennie Nash: [00:34:55] Wait, I only recently learned what yacht rock was, and I was like, rock is the music of my life. And I didn’t even know it –

Rachael Herron: [00:35:05] It’s more, it is, I will say it’s more of a recent term that people have coined for that time, late seventies, like maybe into the early eighties, but it’s so good. And it’s so fun. So this book is absolutely something I must read like tonight, 

Jennie Nash: [00:35:17] Right? You have to. I mean, if you can, if you can do it, if this is your jive I would recommend the audio book. Because it’s just a tour to force. It’s just amazing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:29] Is it read by different characters or is it one narrator? 

Jennie Nash: [00:35:34] You know what’s weird, I can’t even tell you. I can’t even tell you. I think it must be different. It has to be different. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:41] Interesting. 

Jennie Nash: [00:35:42] Yeah. I love it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:43] I have audio credits.

Jennie Nash: [00:35:45] And it was that thing you and I talked about, the whole time I was reading it it’s like you’re holding in his head, in your head, these two things at the same time, I, I love this so much and I just cannot get enough of it. It’s so great. And the experience of being in it is so amazing. And then on the other side, is that like, I could never do that. I could not have thought of that. I wouldn’t, I would have just written it straight, like straight thing. And how’d she even be so bold as to rewrite the fleet with max or like that’s pretty ballsy. Like it, there’s that chatter the whole time of, you know, underneath. Underneath it all. 

Rachael Herron: [00:36:19] What I really love about this conversation right now, is that other people who have less experience will be listening to this. And my students are always saying, I can’t believe that you have imposter syndrome or that you feel this way about your, you know, the revision letter that you just got and, you know, it’s good for everyone to know that this doesn’t go away and we use it to serve our art and to get back into try harder and never rest on those proverbial laurels. Right? 

Jennie Nash: [00:36:45] Yeah. Well, there’s a, I think there’s a lot, a lot of people believe that when they get to where you are and you know, you’ve made it in their mind because they’re just trying to get to the first rung of the ladder and you’re way up the ladder. And, but there’s really not that big difference between what you do and what they’re doing, but it just, it feels like it’s going to be different for, they think it’s going to be different when they get to where you are. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:09] Yeah

Jennie Nash: [00:37:10] And I think there’s a lot of disappointment from people who are published as when a writer first gets published, as they realize like, Oh, it didn’t change my life. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:20] Yeah

Jennie Nash: [00:37:21] I still am who I am. My rating is still what it is. I still feel doubt when I sit down, I still. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:28] There’s still dishes in the sink. There’s still, you know, the whole world, like 99.9999999% of the world still hasn’t heard of you, you know? 

Jennie Nash: [00:37:37] Right, right. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:39] Yeah

Jennie Nash: [00:37:40] Yeah. It definitely changed your life. I mean, the kind of life changing thing, you know, like a JK Rowling or seeing King, you know, that’s like the 0.01 of the.01% 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:53] Yeah. Yep. And the rest of us though, get to do this and we love what we do and we get to chat to each other about it like this, which is amazing. And now I would love to turn this over to you. What would you like to tell us about, I know you have a recent book, right? 

Jennie Nash: [00:38:08] I do. I do

Rachael Herron: [00:38:09] And tell us about Author Accelerator. Tell us where to find you. Tell us all the things. 

Jennie Nash: [00:38:15] Author Accelerator is a company on a mission to train book coaches. So we train book coaches to help writers and I’m really trying to raise the bar on this industry. Kind of what we were talking about earlier that it’s, this is hard work and it’s long, you need to commit yourself to it. And having someone in it with you by your side is, is sometimes the best way to get it done. If you’re not finding you can get it done yourself. And I’m, I sort of stand in opposition to the write fast, write a best seller overnight. You know, you can do it, you know, in 90-days kind of thing. I just, you can draft something in 90 days, a 100% and you can get an idea down whatever, but like to get from beginning to end, that’s not happening. 

Rachael Herron: [00:39:01] No. And I have students who are like, I wrote a draft and I’m going to put it on Amazon now. And I mean, you can. Go for it.

Jennie Nash: [00:39:06] Yes. 

Rachael Herron: [00:39:08] It’s not going to go well for you, but, okay. Yeah. 

Jennie Nash: [00:39:11] So that’s, I’m really trying to acknowledge and respect how hard the work is and train people to help people do that hard, hard work. So you can find us, we’ll put some special stuff for your listeners at Author Accelerator. I have to decide what it’s going to be like, your whole name, just your first name, Rachael

Rachael Herron: [00:39:30] Oh let’s just use, Rachael. Yeah. But it’s spelled, R A C H A E L. So, 

Jennie Nash: [00:39:36] So we’ll go https://www.authoraccelerator.com/rachael. Perfect. And I can put some stuff on there and some resources and things for people to, to find. And the book I just wrote is called, I laugh at the title, Read Books All Day and Get Paid For It. 

Rachael Herron: [00:39:53] It’s the best title ever. I, when I saw it, I was just like, that is one click right there. One click.

Jennie Nash: [00:40:04] Read this all day and get paid for it. That’s what we do. And this is a really nuts and bolts book about how to run a business, how to run a book coaching business. And there’s a lot in there about how to value this work because a lot of people are giving this work away for free. They’re like the most amazing critique partners on the planet. They’re the friend that everybody gives their pages to, they’re the one running the book club and they’re, they’re giving this work away for free. And I’m trying to say that work is usually valuable and you should put a price on it and you could have a side gig or a whole, whole career at that.

Rachael Herron: [00:40:42] I love that you have done that. I have actually seen some friends, like I am not an idea- idea, generator. I’m just not, but one of my best friends, Adrian Bell, she, you say, what should I do with this idea? And she, she helps you. She’s got that 30,000 footview, view, but she’s able to bring to this kind of thing and she’s monetizing it now with her plot MD and just seeing people use their skills and the fact that you’re giving this book to people who can then use their skills to get paid, for having 

Jennie Nash: [00:41:13] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:40:14] good sense when it comes to story structure. 

Jennie Nash: [00:41:16] And the sad reality is that it’s a creative business and it’s a very, a lot of women are in this business. And those two things together, our culture tends to devalue and it, so I’m just fighting against that, that we need to value that work that. I mean all creative work, but people who are helping creators and people who have that skill and that’s, that’s what I’m on my soap box about. And this book is a good start. 

Rachael Herron: [00:41:45] I love it. Oh my gosh. I have enjoyed this conversation so much, Jenny. I would like to sign up to be your next friend when you need one. So I’ll be there. Put me on your waiting list. I won’t, I don’t even know where you live, so I won’t bother you, but I think you’re fantastic and I really enjoy you and I loved talking to you. 

Jennie Nash: [00:42:06] Thanks a lot.

Rachael Herron: [00:42:09] Well, happy writing to you. 

Jennie Nash: [00:42:10] Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.