TOMMY ARNOLD: Tommy Arnold is a digital illustrator whose work showcases the athleticism, prowess, and power of the human figure in fantastic and futuristic settings. He doesn’t believe in talent and has spent a lot of time exploring the mental landscape that artists inhabit while they draw and paint, in order to better understand what’s possible and pass it on. His work has been featured in Spectrum: The Best in Contemporary Fantastic Art, Communication Arts, American Illustration, and at the Society of Illustrators.
MICAH EPSTEIN: Micah Epstein is an illustrator working in fantasy and science fiction. After a childhood spent watching too many cartoons and reading too many comics, it’s unsurprising that drawing is the way he can most meaningfully interface with the stories, worlds, and subjects that he loves. Balancing a methodical & scientific approach to illustration with that same energy and joy he felt as a kid, Micah’s work explores feelings of mystery, stoicism, and majesty in its subjects.
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Transcript
Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.
Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode 168 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. I’m so pleased you’re here. You might hear a giggle in my voice because this just the very first time I have ever done this podcast without even brushing my hair. So if you’re watching on YouTube, you’re welcome. I just woke up and here’s the thing, I have found out that some people really do listen to this podcast on the day it comes out on Fridays, and therefore when I don’t deliver, I let them down. Jeff and Will, I’m thinking of you. I have found out that Jeff and Will of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast and the Big Gay Writers Podcast listen to me for lunch. So it’s 9:43, I’ve done a bunch of other things this morning, I didn’t actually just wake up. I just haven’t brushed my hair or put on clothes yet. Therefore, you see me in my leopard robe, which is silly and awesome. I’m doing this for you, Jeff and Will so we can have lunch together. Today, you all are in for such a treat. I am talking to Tommy Arnold and Micah Epstein about creativity and art. They are artists. They are not necessarily writers, they are visual artists, and it’s the first time I’ve had visual artists on the show and they kind of blew my mind in a lot of ways and have really changed my life in terms of reincorporating play, back into my art, which you’ve heard me talking about it. I got it from them. So I know that you’re going to enjoy this completely fascinating episode that my virtual assistant and friend, Ed recommended that I do with them, and I was like, Oh God, Ed! I’ll do anything for Ed. He’s always right, and he’s always right. So, there you go. That’s what we’re talking about today, you’re going to love it.
And in just a little bit of thank you or a lot of bit of thank you. Thank you to new and renewing patrons, Nikki Heisen. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much Nikki and Leslie Buck renewing, thank you, thank you, thank you. I really appreciate every single person who supports me over at www.patreon.com/rachael and I hope you love the essays that I send and please know how grateful I am to you that I get to sit in this spot and do this.
I have no other news to update you on besides this, is, if you’re watching on YouTube, you don’t need any more of this. I went to Austin for the story shop summit. It was great, and I met some incredible people, and I love going to conferences because I always steal a few people and take them with me into my community, and that’s what you should be doing too. When you go to anything writing related, meet everybody. And tap the one or two that you really, really adore and bring them with you wherever you go next. That’s how we built our own personal communities. We all resonate with different people at different times, so there’s plenty to go around and, so I’m glad to be home. Glad to be writing again and that is it. Let’s jump into this fantastic interview. I hope that you are getting some of your own writing done, my friend, and reach out at any time to tell me about it. I love to hear how you are doing. Okay, Happy writing!
This episode is brought to you by my book Fast Draft Your Memoir. Write your life story in 45 hours, which is, by the way, totally doable. And I’ll tell you how. It’s the same class I teach in the continuing studies program at Stanford each year, and I’ll let you in on a secret. Even if you have no interest in writing a memoir, yet the book has everything I’ve ever learned about the process of writing, and of revision, and of story structure, and of just doing this thing that’s so hard and yet all we want to do. Pick it up today.
Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show for the very first time, two people and two artists. We are talking to artists today, not writers, because I want to kind of compare what writing has in some – has in common with art. And I’m talking to first Tommy. Hello, Tommy.
Tommy Arnold: [00:04:26] Hey, how’s it going?
Rachael Herron: [00:04:27] Good. And Micah?
Micah Epstein: [00:04:29] Hello!
Rachael Herron: [00:04:31] Hi, Micah. Let me give you a little introduction for both of you. Tommy Arnold is a digital illustrator whose work showcases the athleticism, prowess, and power of the human figure in fantastic and futuristic settings. He doesn’t believe in talent and has spent a lot of time exploring the mental landscape that artists inhabit while they draw and paint, in order to better understand what’s possible and pass it on. His work has been featured in Spectrum: The Best in Contemporary Fantastic Art, Communication Arts, American Illustration, and at the Society of Illustrators.
Micah Epstein, is it Epstein or Epstein?
Micah Epstein: [00:05:04] Yes. You are actually one of the only people to get that right in the first try.
Rachael Herron: [00:05:07] Micah Epstein
Tommy Arnold: [00:05:07] Nailed it
Rachael Herron: [00:05:08] Yay! Is an illustrator working in fantasy and science fiction after a childhood spent watching too many cartoons and reading too many comics, is there any such thing? It’s unsurprising that drawing is the way he can most meaningfully interfaced with the stories, worlds and subjects that he loves. Balancing a methodical & scientific approach to illustration with that same energy and joy he felt as a kid, Micah’s work explores feelings of mystery, stoicism, and majesty in its subjects. Both of those are really good bios. Who wrote them?
Tommy Arnold: [00:05:38] We each did after significant prodding by others because as I’m sure you’re aware of bio is one of the toughest things in the world.
Rachael Herron: [00:05:46] It’s so hard. I have written 26 books and I still look at my bio and now; I can’t do it. I cannot get this right.
Tommy Arnold: [00:05:54] Yeah. Well it really does takes some kind of like…
Micah Epstein: [00:05:55] Well it feels a lot like external catalysts like I had for years. It wasn’t until we started doing the podcast that I, actually like wrote a proper bio cause for years it was basically just like, I dunno, email me.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:06] Yeah.
Micah Epstein: [00:06:08] But
Rachael Herron: [00:06:10] I think your, I think Tommy, it was on your website where you said, don’t follow me, you know. Follow me on social media or whatever, but join my mailing list.
Tommy Arnold: [00:06:17] Yeah. I’ve been trying to push that
Rachael Herron: [00:06:18] I like that too
Tommy Arnold: [00:06:19] -just because they can’t take your mailing list away, but
Rachael Herron: [00:06:22] That’s the only thing we own,
Tommy Arnold: [00:06:23] Well, and even that it’s like through MailChimp or whatever. Right. But the emails, yeah, it’s a little, I don’t know. It’s, it’s one that you control a little bit more, I guess so you can develop a more personal rapport with people and communicate in the way you want where, because, it all comes down to what you want, right? I don’t want to communicate in a way where once I communicate or try to communicate, I then have to check my communicate every 20 minutes or else no one will get the message.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:47] Exactly
Tommy Arnold: [00:07:48] That really frustrates me. So I just figured, you know, people really want to hear from me and I want to talk to them, or vice versa. And that’s nice because people send a lot more genuine replies because all the replies are secret. It’s an email, so.
Rachael Herron: [00:06:58] Exactly. And that’s still how I communicate the best with a lot of my readers is that’s where they come to me to talk. And that’s where I go to them to talk. And it’s, and it’s the way I like opening my, I love opening my email, unboxing, getting email from people or creators or artists that I love.
Tommy Arnold: [00:07:14] Yeah, that’s a really refreshing thing to hear with, because I know that, Micah and I have both gone through periods where we really dread our email inbox. And so yeah, finding a way to change that paradigm is pretty important.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:23] Oh, I hate my email inbox. I liter- legit, hate it so much. I was just hating it for the half hour before we talked. Just sitting here hating and going through. I’m trying to maintain something like inbox zero, but it’s generally about inbox a hundred but all of those hundreds have something I need to do.
Tommy Arnold: [00:07:40] Yeah. It’s a to do list.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:41] Exactly, to do list.
Tommy Arnold: [00:07:42] Soon as you open it.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:44] Yeah, and I just. There was one in there, she’s a writer from Montana, her name is Anne Helen Petersen, and she sends out these great, really relaxing emails about what she’s been doing, and I just sat there and read it. And then I got back to doing all the other crap. But you know, that was just a delight. So good. Keep up sending out those, those newsletters.
So I want to ask both of you this, basically I’m taking all my questions that I normally ask and kind of spinning them a little bit for art. Tommy, let’s start with you. What is your artistic process? And that’s a huge question, but what I’m really looking for is a nuts and bolts, day to day, what is sitting down to do your art look like?
Tommy Arnold: [00:08:23] Well, it depends on which type of art I’m doing. Because I’m in a little bit of a transitional period right now. I really badly injured my drawing wrist,
Rachael Herron: [00:08:38] Oh no
Tommy Arnold: [00:08:23] 20… it’s been so long that I can’t remember which year this happened then. Anyway, a long time ago, actually now it’s been awhile.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:48] Was it RSI or an injury?
Tommy Arnold: [00:08:50] No, that’s the thing is the wrist was totally fine. And then I took a fall at the rock climbing gym, and suddenly it was just not usable, really. And I, I mean, it’s kind of usable a little, so I would kind of hobbled on and made it worse. And that became a chronic RSI that- that really was destructive to the entire muscular skeletal structure of the body on that side. And so it took a lot of work to get that fixed. But in the meantime, I did some soul searching and started working not just on illustration, which is historically what I’ve done, sort of specializing on book and story art and I started working on comic books, which is fun because in comics, I’m the writer and the brief writer, and the artists. So when I’m working on illustration, what it used to look like is that I would wake up and then just sit down and do the hardest work, which was sketching. I don’t know exactly the equivalent is in writing, but I assume…
Rachael Herron: [00:09:43] First drafting,
Tommy Arnold: [00:09:43] Yeah, this is really quite difficult.
Rachael Herron: [00:09:46] So it’s so painful. I love revision, but I can’t stand a first draft. Yeah.
Tommy Arnold: [00:09:50] it’s funny cause I actually love the first draft and I hate revision in terms of their fun, like what’s more engaging, but it’s more difficult and I find that I just have more willpower first thing in the morning, so I would just wake up. And plop down and just basically sketch until I’d beat the thing or it beat me, which usually happened around lunchtime, and then I would go for a run, do lunch, and then the afternoon it was like the autopilot stuff where it was like, okay, this sketch is already approved, I need to render it. And then it’s just several hours of sitting there and you still try to be engaged with and stuff. It was just a different mindset. So that was, it’s pretty rhythmic and it was just these discrete four hour chunks that would grow or shrink depending on my interest or waxing and waning my energy levels. And then now I guess a lot of my work is a combination of study and practice, which is, at first it felt really different. And now it’s getting similar where I’m a little bit back in a groove, but you basically wake up and do the essentials and the things you gotta do like my physical therapy stuff and take care of my body. And then, yeah, sit down and just whatever the thing that is the most pressing in terms of my study of comic books, which sounds weird to say, but it really can be broken down into, into something study-able and so like this morning I spent four hours analyzing, panel shot decisions across like eight or nine different books, and I made a bunch of notes, I have like a journal that sits right on the desk all the time. That’s like, here’s how it went today, and it’s that, it’s just the training journal. It doesn’t have any drawing or anything in it. And then, in the evening I do work that goes out. So I guess I kind of look at it as work that comes in or is internal, which is any self-development, or practice, or training, and I don’t really interface with the world at that point in time. You know, we were talking about email and I never check email or, or any social media or anything like that before that period’s up. And then after that I have the same break I used to where I run and I have some food. And then during that break time, check email, that’s the only time during the day I check email now so that I can just trap it and not think about it. And then in the afternoon, whatever came in from email or whatever needs to go out like, okay, we have to do something for the podcast, or we have to, I have to finish an illustration that I took on. That stuff happens in evening.
Rachael Herron: [00:12:03] That sounds really disciplined. Are you good with discipline?
Tommy Arnold: [00:12:06] Discipline is something that no one’s good with, but I, I work on something that we talked about a lot on, on our podcast actually is, we’re both always kind of trying to design our lives the same way that we’re trying to design our art to specific goals. So whatever I’m like hunting right now, decides what, what goes on in the life. But yeah, I guess I’m pretty – I’m pretty rigorous. We were in the parking lot the other night outside of the, we, we got kicked out of where we were having dinner because they closed because we were just talking about art and it just kept going and going. And we got on the parking lot and I was talking about something about this, you know, the rigorous element of this life crafting. And one of our mutual friends turned to Micah and was like, well, you know, you’re not talking to a human. So I don’t know. It’s been good and bad that I can be this way. It denies certain other types of normalcy, but for me now, it’s, it is quite normal to be, to be that way.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:08] That’s so interesting and it reflects my process really, really kind of note for note, including not letting other voices in, not taking in the world until my work is done the afternoon for the other stuff, it’s…
Tommy Arnold: [00:13:21] That is so interesting to hear a lot of this stuff is based on universal principles. You can boil down to science and then look at it, and in fact, when Edward suggested that we do this sort of, cross discussion, one of the things he mentioned was that on our show, a lot of the stuff we talk about is so general to Micah, you put this best just a moment ago, not the picture making process, but the art making process. And that process seems really universal across different types of creative acts. And so he said he’d been listening to our podcast and getting stuff, and we’ve been checking out yours and getting stuff from it. So that’s,
Rachael Herron: [00:13:54] And it’s all tied up in that creating the artist’s life too, just like you said, crafting that. Fascinating. Micah, what about you? What is your artistic process going to look like on a day to day basis?
Micah Epstein: [00:14:05] In, in some ways it’s pretty similar to Tommy’s that it’s fairly regimented, so right now I, basically I will wake up and I spend sort of a while to sort of like taking care of like myself. So I’ll like wake up, I’ll like do stretches and breathing exercises. I usually go for a run or something as close to first thing in the morning as I can like safely manage and then I like to start the day with, usually some kind of reading. Either like a book about sort of self-development or, sometimes I’m just looking at art books or, you know, watching other artists paint or something to sort of like, just really get my brain moving and then, you know, for a long time I would jump, I kind of let my commissioned work rule my life for real long time. And sort of what with this, this, this, misapprehension that because that was paying the bills, then, you know, that just, it had to be that way. And then if I, if I didn’t put it first, then it wouldn’t get done. And, I’m sure I will, I’ll allude to this at a different point during, during our discussion today. But, my big sort of project for the last year has been sort of retooling my own relationship with art because for a while it got to be a, a source mainly of stress, and it just became like a very sort of unhealthy relationship with this thing that I ostensibly do because I love it. So most of what I do is sort of aimed at getting back to that. So one thing I started doing back last January that I try to keep up whenever I feasibly can perfectly every day is, you know, when I’m done reading and I’m, I’m like sitting down at my desk, I will do something fun for an hour. And the only, the only stipulation is that it’s fun and that it’s art.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:59] That’s pretty awesome.
Micah Epstein: [00:16:00] So oftentimes, it turned out to be, and I, I didn’t do it necessarily with the thought that it would become something as groundbreaking for me as it ended up being. But, we, we spoke with another artist in our podcast, Greg Ruth, who’s just an absolutely phenomenal draftsman who’s become known for his sort of like little mini passion projects that he does. And he had, he had this one called the 52 weeks’ project that, as it turns out at knows at the time, basically came from the same place where he said that, you know at different points, he realized he was like starting to have like a, like a Sunday night feeling before he would have to go back to work the next day. And I absolutely was, was in the same place, but sort of, it started as just a way to like make me look forward to sitting down in front of my computer every day. But it’s become sort of a really important cornerstone of all the stuff I tried to focus on. So that’s usually what I do first. And that can be anything from oil painting to just moving pictures around on my computer and figuring out stuff that I like to just doing free drawing or something like that. Wherever possible I try to get in an hour of training, which, it kinda just depends on what I’m studying at the time. Recently it’s been sort of going back to composition basics and working on how I work with sketches and stuff like that and then, you know, I tend to like, I don’t really have like a set meal times. I just kinda like, I have like a fixed like seven or eight meals that I eat in the same order every day, and it just kind of graze. I should be more disciplined about that, but I’ll eat some, some variant of lunch and then I’ll usually sit down to do, my like commissioned work, which it’s just, it’ – it varies day by day and it’s pretty much either sketching, drawing, or painting, and you can tell me, you’ve already sort of alluded to this and I’m sure you understand with like first drafting and outlining, but that if it’s sketching, that tends to, things will get moved around to accommodate that because like I can’t train on the same day that I sketch because it just takes up like I just have a finite number of brain cells and they get tired real fast.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:12] Oh my God. That is so interesting because for writers, most a lot of us, I won’t say most of us, but a lot of us feel the first drafts are exhausting because you are presented with all of these. You have the all the choices in the world. Whereas in revision you’ve narrowed all your choices, you’ve got what you’ve got on the board, and you get to work with it, so the energy level is different. That’s completely fascinating.
Micah Epstein: [00:18:30] Yeah. Do you or do you find that you, do you outline before doing a first draft? I knew some authors do that…
Rachael Herron: [00:18:34] I do, I do a real rough outline. Basically I have a set of beats that I try to hit but basically soon as I start writing, anything can happen.
Micah Epstein: [00:18:43] Is that, is that…
Tommy Arnold: [00:18:44] That’s Exactly like sketching
Rachael Herron: [00:18:47] Really? Really?
Tommy Arnold: [00:18:48] Yeah. Yeah. You sit down and you’ve got all this work to like figure this thing out and you make 20 marks and sometimes immediately. It’s right and you, you nailed it. But most of the time, one of those marks leads to a place more interesting than you could have ever thought of. And now you’re screwed. What are you going to do? Stick to your guns in the face of a clearly superior product.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:03] And when you do that and you have the tone of somebody who’s done that, and we’ve all done that, where we keep chasing what we thought was supposed to be our idea, and it always ends up badly. And if you follow your gut, it turns out right. Although you may end up you know, I have one book that’s 97,000 words long, which isn’t a good long book, and there are 103,000 words in the trashcan that were not reused.
Tommy Arnold: [00:19:25] Yeah, that’s awesomely you have the word counts on that. That’s a great illustration of how much does get trashed, and I think that’s absolutely right.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:36] That gets trashed. Exactly.
Micah Epstein: [00:19:32] Yeah. It’s interesting cause I don’t have a way of quantifying sketches that get thrown away
Rachael Herron: [00:19:46] Why?
Micah Epstein: [00:19:47] Because they often kind of morph. So they’re kind of like in so many ways, yeah, there’s almost like an infinite number of potential ideas that could have gone other ways that’s…
Tommy Arnold: [00:19:55] That you went on down to like,
Micah Epstein: [00:19:57] Yeah.
Tommy Arnold: [00:19:58] Or maybe three.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:59] And I think that’s maybe when you keep a scene and you keep pushing it different ways that would be like that. But then for writers, there’s that delete button and that scene just goes in the trash because it was stupid and you just wasted your life writing that. So, Oh my gosh. But Micah, that’s pr- you just gave me a really apathetic moment with the fun thing, because this is, you know, this has been my full time job for almost four years now and, and it’s fantastic. But I do have that sometimes a Sunday night blues and,
Micah Epstein: [00:20:25] Oh yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:20:26] And I’ve been trying to let myself have like make myself do something else for 10 or 15 minutes a day. And I even begrudge that in the morning, before I start working, but I’m looking at it in a different way. What if I just give myself an hour to play?
Micah Epstein: [00:20:41] Yeah, I
Rachael Herron: [00:20:42] I want to try it for a couple of weeks and just see how it feels.
Micah Epstein: [00:20:45] I would definitely try it. For me, I’ve, I’ve just found that, like, I, I tried for a long time to sort of manage that dissatisfaction by separating myself from the work. So it became a more about like the, the stereotypical discussion about work life balance where I thought the solution was to like, you know, rigidly put work over here and life over here and know the two shall meet. And that kind of worked for a while, but what’s ended up making a much more positive change over a much greater length of time has been actually getting under the hood and retooling how I feel about art so that that separation isn’t, it isn’t like a survival mechanism. It’s just kind of happens naturally if and when it does.
Tommy Arnold: [00:21:34] Yeah. Maybe – maybe because watching you from the outside, that is a great way to put it, that the difference between the negative parts of what was going on in the positive, cause I really don’t think that you can affect change by motivating yourself negatively. So to go, well,
Rachael Herron: [00:21:48] It goes when one day and you can do it for much longer, yeah.
Micah Epstein: [00:21:51] Yeah
Tommy Arnold: [00:21:51] Yeah. Like I want to separate these things, so I just won’t really think about the problem. And Micah you kinda talked about getting under the hood. It was really like you had a car that was messed up and you just like duct taped it closed and you were like, I’ll keep driving. Yeah, it’s…
Micah Epstein: [00:22:05] Pretty much like, yeah. I’ll drive for 15 minutes at a time and then walk away and forget that the car exists and then drive for another 15 minutes.
Tommy Arnold: [00:22:11] Yeah. Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:22:12] I’ll get there, I’ll get there.
Tommy Arnold: [00:22:13] And the rest of the time I’ll focus so hard on making sure that car is not in my mind, but you really seem to have tapped into gold with this in this fun hour because what it really is, is training self-indulgence,
Rachael Herron: [00:22:22] Yes.
Micah Epstein: [00:22:23] Yeah.
Tommy Arnold: [00:22:24] Which is the root of all good art making in that, like you said, you said, you know Rachael about shooting from the gut, like you have to learn to trust yourself and to know even what you like and what you enjoy. And if you’re always doing what you should do. How can you ever figure that out? So this-
Rachael Herron: [00:22:40] Oh my God, my life is a shrewd. I’m always trying to work that diligence in hate that word.
Tommy Arnold: [00:22:46] Yeah
Micah Epstein: [00:22:47] Briefly you had mentioned that like, you know, you sometimes, sort of begrudge, I need to take 15 minutes before starting your schedule work. And that’s something that I’ve really been kind of struggling with myself. Even, even doing this, this fun hour thing is that there is, it’s really interesting to hear you say that because there’s this tendency for like, the schedule to kind of dominate a person’s psyche?
Rachael Herron: [00:23:10] Not even like a little way, but in a huge way.
Micah Epstein: [00:23:13] Yeah. And will I, I find myself and I’ve seen in other people, like, you know, re-contextualizing everything that happens based on that. So like, things that you have to do before getting down to your work-work, just become distractions or, you know, annoyances. Even if they’re actually quite important. And there’s, there’s, like I realized for a long time I thought I just hated doing art and I realized like, “Oh no, I hate feeling behind schedule”, but because of how I think about or thought about art for such a long time, whenever and because of how I thought about, you know, work that I should be doing, every time I sat down to do art, I was already behind schedule. So they were just like merged. It’s so interesting to hear some, someone from a different discipline say that, it’s just interesting to hear that it doesn’t just happen in visual art and I’m starting to think it’s just a symptom of any field that requires a certain level of like rigid self-discipline.
Rachael Herron: [00:24:06] There’s the, oh gosh, what’s her name the dancer, who wrote Twyla Tharp’s Book on Creativity. When I read that, you know, she’s, she’s a dancer and she wrote a book about creativity. That is brilliant and that’s the point at which I was like, Oh, it is kind of all the same. I’m throwing these questions out the window. We’ll get to what we get to. I wanted to ask you, you’re both full time creatives then. Right?
Micah Epstein: [00:24:26] Yes.
Rachael Herron: [00:24:27] So all three of us have done that thing where we turned our passion into our profession, which I think is incredible. And we’re so lucky that we got to do that. So you’ve got the fun hour, Micah, what – what other ways do you guys keep it fun? Do you have, I find myself I need outside hobbies, like now I need something to fuck around with that isn’t writing, you know? Do you do any of that?
Tommy Arnold: [00:25:00] Oh,
Micah Epstein: [00:25:02] We were hesitating for a damning amount of time.
Rachael Herron: [00:25:03] That was a really long pause.
Tommy Arnold: [00:24:53] I was just wondering who’s going to talk first, because for me, it’s just, no, there’s no, there’s no framework in which anything can exist in which it’s not tied to artistic.
Rachael Herron: [00:25:21] Well that is true. There’s nothing I don’t do when I’m not thinking about writing.
Tommy Arnold: [00:25:25] Yes. So when I try to, we’ve all had periods where we’re like, Oh, people say you should have work life balance. And I hate that phrase because it so misses the point that if you really are doing this stuff right, then there is no feeling like that. There’s no, there’s nothing to miss. There’s no,
Rachael Herron: [00:25:44] There’s email though
Tommy Arnold: [00:25:45] But even that you can, like, you can only like tune things. You know, the car is like constantly breaking down because that’s life and the car is made of entropy, but you, you have this like build this human ability to mess with it and move forward. And so anything I’ve ever tried to take on, it instantly just becomes part of the art or it feels like it keeps me from it and it goes away, but I’ve never successfully looked for anything else, and maybe sometimes even to my detriment. I don’t know. But now, there’s no, I don’t, I think anything that I’m, because if I get interested in it, I consider myself interested through the lens of art. So it just comes in when it needs to for- for art.
Rachael Herron: [00:26:32] Yeah. It’s one of those things that you see it when you see it because you have to look
Tommy Arnold: [00:26:35] You’re looking
Rachael Herron: [00:26:36] Everything is, yeah, exactly. Everything is sucked into this black hole of our obsessions.
Tommy Arnold: [00:26:40] Yeah, but I don’t… even that word puts it in a little bit of like a, a negative light.
Rachael Herron: [00:26:46] Oh, I like to negative shit up.
Tommy Arnold: [00:26:47] Yeah. I like the word passions that you use, that was good for this stuff. Like, you, you, you jump in on this.
Micah Epstein: [00:26:59] Yeah. I, I absolutely have stuff outside of art, that I enjoyed doing. Not that, and it’s not stuff that I seek out, specifically as a break from art. It’s just kind of stuff that I like. So like I, I enjoy playing video games, I enjoyed like reading mostly fiction. I read a lot of fiction. Really just those two things. And then just,
Tommy Arnold: [00:27:23] It started as such an exhaustive sounding list.
Micah Epstein: [00:27:27] Yeah. No,
Tommy Arnold: [00:27:28] It’s turned out to be too,
Micah Epstein: [00:27:29] Well no, I was thinking about like, the rest of that list is just drawing.
Tommy Arnold: [00:27:32] Yeah
Micah Epstein: [00:27:33] So yeah, it, but though even- even like my hobbies outside of art, I’ve, I always try to sort of manage my relationship with them because I think they’re at their most beneficial when they are related to art not intrinsically, but just in the, if I can take energy or ideas that I get in any of those things and move that into art, because you know, a lot of things, like when I was a little kid, like the comics that I read, the games that I played were the reasons why I started drawing in the first place. And that’s something that I’d been really interested in reconnecting to recently as art, as a way of interfacing with the thing that I like and exploring something that I can really only do through drawing. And this is, it’s an ongoing process, it isn’t something that I’ve, I’ve really cracked yet, but I’ve, I’ve definitely used hobbies as escape patches from art very frequently.
Rachael Herron: [00:28:33] Yes.
Micah Epstein: [00:27:34] And they’ve never been as beneficial as when I’ve gone the other way and tried to sort of fold everything together, enter this like central identity, if that makes any sense at all outside of my own head.
Rachael Herron: [00:28:47] Absolutely. I love that you said reading too because reading, I think, for all three of us just feeds this, it feeds so much of it, whether you’re reading comics, whether you’re reading novels, whether you’re, I mean, if I could have perfect days, it would be moving from the bed, or I’m reading to the computer where I’m writing and basically just going back and forth in those two places. And that is, that’s an ideal day for, for me. What is your biggest, what does each of your biggest challenges when it comes to actually doing the art? How about Tommy? You go first.
Tommy Arnold: [00:29:20] Unlike you, I really enjoy to read. So, it’s very easy for me to get lost in thoughts about how cool this technique is for drawing or how interesting this technique is for maintaining presence in the work or how all this stuff is so connected. And I just want to go on a walk and like, think about this stuff. But what I love about the field of artists that you can’t really do anything, so you can do it. You have to put it down on paper or else it’s not real. It doesn’t leave your head. And so, my biggest challenge habitually has been to leave the fantasy of being decent at art and to enter into the difficulty of being just okay at it. And whenever I face that challenge, I feel really good and slowly that’s built. You get kind of hungry for things that challenge you in that way, but it’s still not a native human thing to want to walk into the cave of failure. And so I guess, every time that you do it, you, you condition yourself against it a little bit. And when I’ve been at my worst is times when I, I grow quite fearful and I stick to the cusp of the cave of failure and I just hang out near it and I go, “Hey, everyone, I’m near the cave of failure.” And they’re like, “Oh, that’s really good for ya. Nice. Nice.” And I’m like, “I know, I know. It was pretty awesome” but I don’t, but I don’t walk in. And so, yeah that-
Rachael Herron: [00:30:45] I love that.
Tommy Arnold: [00:30:46] That can be tough, but, but, every day I try to build in more a step in a little further. So I’m pretty deep in right now and it’s weird in here.
Rachael Herron: [00:30:46] Its just. Oh. I was telling my students like one of the number one things I’m always telling them is to lower your expectations. Just, you know, you have this expectation for yourself. Lower it.
Tommy Arnold: [00:31:07] Yeah that’s great.
Rachael Herron: [00:31:08] And, I also just read this on a podcast the other day and I can’t remember where it was. I think it might’ve been, Adam Grant talking, about making a failure resume and failure bio?
Tommy Arnold: [00:31:19] That’s a great idea. Oh my gosh.
Rachael Herron: [00:31:20] Isn’t it? I’m going to do it. I’m going to put it on my side because our bio’s amigos might look like really pretty cool. But really, I’m only here, the bio is there because of how much I have failed and how, how, no, I’m never, I always liked to think that I’m comfortable at failure, but I’m absolutely not. I hate failure.
Tommy Arnold: [00:31:25] Well, how could you ever be, I mean, that’s a constant challenge like meditation. How could you ever not have thoughts? You’re going to have them. So part of this is learning to reconcile with, I think that’s, this isn’t my favorite and one of the harder of the questions that you’ve presented us, just because, if you don’t have challenges, you’re not really doing it. You know, there has to be something that you’re really struggling with too. That’s the struggle is the activity.
Rachael Herron: [00:32:03] I think there’s a lot of people that who don’t understand that when they’re trying to,
Tommy Arnold: [00:32:06] Of course
Rachael Herron: [00:32:07] Do their art. Are you, are you both familiar with iron glasses theory of the gap?
Tommy Arnold: [00:32:01] I am. Just because its related in Robert McKees screenwriting book story.
Rachael Herron: [00:32:19] Oh, did he mention it? Yeah, basically
Tommy Arnold: [00:32:20] Yeah.
Micah Epstein: [00:32:21] I believe so, yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:32:22] That we have, we have great taste and because we have great taste, we know that when we do our work, it is not at the level at which we want it to be. And it’s the tension between something being good. And what we actually did. And are trying to fix to be good. That’s the tension that’s in that tension is where most people usually drop out because they’re not comfortable just being so sucky here, you know? And it’s really uncomfortable. So if we can embrace the suck,
Tommy Arnold: [00:32:48] Micah mentioned his identity earlier, that when he could successfully be a little happier, he was integrating more things under one central identity. And even though I like those things to be organized, I think the, the smaller your identity can be, the more helpful it is for living in that tension. I don’t remember where I picked up this idea. It’s definitely not mine because it’s a decent idea, but basically that you, the less you are, the less there is to -that you’re fighting, you’re not fighting your own perception of yourself in that void of tension.
Rachael Herron: [00:33:21] Yes.
Tommy Arnold: [00:33:22] So you get in there and you go, Oh, I’m going to do a thing. Oh, I couldn’t, I’m going to fail. But why should you be able to do it? You know? So if you let go of the idea that anything you should be able to do, we mentioned that word a bunch so far, but it’s a terrible word should and what you might be able to do and just can you reduce your identity? Like after I hurt my wrist, I had to reduce my identity to some kernel of myself that didn’t involve making art, and I’d never been in that place before.
Rachael Herron: [00:33:46] That is, I don’t- How did you get through that?
Tommy Arnold: [00:33:50] Very painfully and with a lot of sense.
Rachael Herron: [00:33:53] It’s one- it’s one of my great, it’s one of my greatest terrors to know that like something like a stroke could happen and suddenly I would have the writing ability to be removed. And it is, it is who I am. And I know that’s not who I am, but it, it’s something I drive around, you know, Oakland thinking about
Tommy Arnold: [00:34:07] Yeah
Rachael Herron: [00:34:08] What would, what would happen if I couldn’t be a writer? I don’t know.
Tommy Arnold: [00:34:11] Yeah
Rachael Herron: [00:34:12] You are, you are an artist, so you are speaking from a place-
Tommy Arnold: [00:34:16] Same. It’s the same place. Yeah,
Rachael Herron: [00:34:17] Probably, yeah.
Tommy Arnold: [00:34:19] I guess, yeah, just recovered into a different thing, I guess. I don’t really feel like I’ll ever be that what I was before again, and yet I didn’t lose the deeper kernels of, of what I was, I suppose, but I didn’t know what they were at the time. So it just, you don’t really change until you’re forced to. So I can’t give any sort of prescription for how I would achieve this in oneself, besides get out there with a hammer and slam them fingers. I, you just, the brain, like it just finds a way and, and so, but there was a reading of philosophy where I found this idea that you could shrink the identity as sort of intentionally, actually. And, so being in those desperate situations, but that’s what the cave of fear is, is that you give yourself controlled yet desperate situations. And that’s why I think that what the value is walking in that scary place because you, you can, you can figure this stuff out if you even think you have to, you can really trick yourself into thinking that something’s essential to do and,
Rachael Herron: [00:36:21] Brains will believe what we tell them.
Tommy Arnold: [00:35:23] Yeah. And get, get the, get the results that way.
Rachael Herron: [00:35:26] That’s also problematic. Micah, what about you? What’s your biggest challenge when it comes to doing your art?
Micah Epstein: [00:35:30] Oh, goodness. Oh, this is gonna be such a long answer. It’s so many things. I think I, I will like go Tommy’s comments a little bit at first, which is that, really sort of overcoming that, that basic human tendency to shy away from, from challenge and failure. I, I know it’s, it’s probably not like a smart thing to say for my career, but I honestly like it and I don’t think many people in their natural state like enjoy the challenge and failure that is, endemic to sit, to succeeding in, in growing.
Rachael Herron: [00:36:08] It does not feel good. And we shy away from things that we don’t feel good.
Micah Epstein: [00:36:11] Absolutely. And, and I am, I’ve done a lot of, a lot of work on this in the past year because I do think that like, you know, oftentimes the, the solution to improving our artists, to improve ourselves, but, I am endemically a catastrophically attention deficit and extremely anxious person. And when I’ve been at my worst, it’s those two things have been, you know, like I was saying about like the external hobbies when I’m at my best, when those are sort of wrapped up in the art and everything is sort of feeding into each other. I’ve had a lot of difficulties with art becoming sort of the focus of anxiety. And so, you know, just like, you know, there’s basic mechanical stuff, like it’s tough to stay on task, especially when something is really tough. But also just managing my emotional relationship with painting and drawing. Because so often my brain will just sort of automatically scapegoated. If I’m, if I’m feeling, it’s like I was thinking about like, the, the, you know, it’s not that I hate painting, I hate feeling behind schedule. It took me a long time to realize that one because I just thought that doing art was inherently miserable. And then I kept wondering, he’s like, man, whenever I sit down and do art for myself, it’s super fun, but whenever I do my job, it’s terrible. Guess that’s just life. But, just, just sort of, you know, separating these sort of emotional distinctions for me is, challenging but rewarding. But it’s, I’d be lying if I said it hadn’t sometimes been an absolute, like miserable bloody struggle sometimes.
Rachael Herron: [00:37:46] Oh, but isn’t that comforting me here? I don’t know why. As artists, we are comforted to hear that other people are struggling.
Tommy Arnold: [00:37:54] Yeah, you’re right though. We are. I don’t know how all the conversations end up like this. Like our podcast is the same way. It’s just a bunch of people telling each other it’ll be okay. I feel terrible that way too.
Rachael Herron: [00:38:06] I have a, I have another podcast that I share with my friend Jay Thorne. He’s a writer and- and the, and we ask each other questions. It’s called The Writer’s Well, and a couple of weeks ago I asked him, is it worth it? And it devolved into this,
Tommy Arnold: [00:38:18] Oh, that’s an interesting one
Rachael Herron: [00:38:19] I don’t know. And
Tommy Arnold: [00:38:21] I just saw your-
Rachael Herron: [00:38:22] We have got emails from listeners, one person like said, do you guys need counseling? I’m like, we’re still going to do it.
Micah Epstein: [00:38:30] I think most people do to be honest. I mean if
Tommy Arnold: [00:38:33] Yeah, yeah, my sister has a great saying, which is anyone who can afford it should be in therapy.
Rachael Herron: [00:38:38] Hell yes! Okay. So what about your, we are going to skip some of these because I know we’re running out of time, but what is, what is your biggest joy?
Tommy Arnold: [00:38:44] We know you have a timeline, but we’re not in a super rush, so,
Rachael Herron: [00:38:47] Okay,
Tommy Arnold: [00:38:48] We’ll, we’ll go at the pace that’s comfortable and you can tell us you’re done whenever,
Rachael Herron: [00:38:52] Okay, thank you. Cause this is fantastic, so far. What is your biggest joy, Tommy, when it comes to your art?
Tommy Arnold: [00:38:59] I’ve started on all of – make Micah start.
Rachael Herron: [00:39:01] Okay, Micah, you start.
Micah Epstein: [00:39:03] Biggest joy. There is,
Tommy Arnold: [00:39:14] This is why I pawned it off.
Micah Epstein: [00:39:16] Yeah, I know, right? I’m like, oh man, I wish I had someone else, like, it just
Rachael Herron: [00:39:19] What- what feels the best, what feel the best when you’re creating? Is it just you have to be in yourself?
Micah Epstein: [00:39:25] I’m actually, I’m thinking there’s a particular incident that happened recently that sort of, exemplifies, I think the things that I like most about art, and I’m trying to think of a way to like, boil that down to like a centralized theme, but, I’ll just go ahead and tell the story because I’m a rambler.
Rachael Herron: [00:39:40] Please, this is a story podcast
Micah Epstein: [00:39:43] Yeah, I, I had, I had been really struggling with some aspects of like the, the basic sketching process for, um, for a long time. And, um. It was really inhibiting my ability to start a lot of things that I enjoyed. And I did hit it. I worked on for a while and I hit a big breakthrough in it. It wasn’t the ask the, the fact of solving a problem specifically, it was solving that particular problem because that lets me tap into the thing that I kinda started doing this in the first place for, which is, just the ability to be a dumb, impulsive child. Like when I hit this breakthrough with sketching, I was like, Oh, right. I could- I could draw just about anything.
Rachael Herron: [00:40:20] Awe
Micah Epstein: [00:40:21] I can be tough, but like, just, I mean, just from just from like the basic sketch phase, I mean, this isn’t getting into like technical abilities required later on down the line, but just sort of like, you know, if I have like a dumb idea about a little story I want to illustrate, I can do that. So, you know, if I, if I have just a thought about a character, I can get that out on the page. And that was something that had been sort of locked away behind a big terrible vault door of fear for a long time. But at its core, that’s the kind of thing that like, that’s why I started drawing like when I was a kid is, you know, I would, I’d be sitting there like playing Zelda or something and after a certain point in the game ends, but I’m like, I really kind of want to keep thinking about this and there’s certain things I can’t do in that game, so I’m just going to sit here and draw it.
Rachael Herron: [00:41:06] That is magical.
Micah Epstein: [00:41:08] Yeah, just, just interfacing with ideas and being in, using it as a way to explore just things and feelings that are interesting to me. And, it’s, it’s at its most enjoyable when I do sort of feel empowered to do that. If that makes sense.
Rachael Herron: [00:41:26] And again, it is exactly the way I use writing.
Micah Epstein: [00:41:29] I’m good. Okay.
Rachael Herron: [00:41:30] But I don’t, I don’t ever know what I think about anything until I start writing about it. I don’t know what I believe or what I know to be true until I find it through words. It’s something you just said reminded me of that. Tommy, how about for you? Where’s the joy?
Micah Epstein: [00:41:43] There’s no one to pass the buck to now
Tommy Arnold: [00:41:44] I’m good. It follows quite naturally from what you two were just talking about. And, I’m a little surprised at this answer as I give it but it’s possible that my favorite moments related to making art are these, that the ability to commune with others.
Rachael Herron: [00:42:04] I love that, yes.
Tommy Arnold: [00:41:06] Because art is, another podcast I listen to, that’s no longer going on, called Your Dreams, My Nightmares by Sam Weber. There was a brief discussion in one episode about would you make art if no one was going to see it? And they agreed, no, and I’ve thought about it a lot, and I also think probably no, but, it’s funny because the moment where someone sees my art is not the part I get excited about. But the chance that communication could occur on channels that are as ancient as our race and that are sure and definite and yet at the same time, they’re indefinable. There’s something so contradictory and yet real about the art making process. And that’s what life feels like. So it, it’s just this microcosm where like you, you mentioned you’re using it to work on yourself and you come out a little bit changed and the, the evidence is there on the page somehow. And then you and another person who’ve interface with those experiences individually can get together and go. Hey, when I was in there and it felt like this, did you feel that? And they go, yeah, man, I, I did feel that. What is that? And then you have a discussion about it. And, those discussions give me the fire and drawing uses some of that fire. And sometimes drawing gives you fire, but it’s not, I dunno for me, and again, this, this kind of goes back to my, my difficulties of the realm of the idea is so exciting to me. And so when we have discussions like this and we come up with ideas and we find out that we’re all human and we’re all just normal people and making stuff and it’s hard, that’s really cool and universal and, I enjoy that feeling of, of connection.
Rachael Herron: [00:44:05] I was just thinking about this this week where I’m, you know, I heard that question, would you continue to write or do your art if, if no one were going to look at it? And I thought, I realized that if there was any chance that anyone could look at it, I think I would continue doing it. Even if even though I don’t care, I decided that if I were the last person on earth,
Tommy Arnold: [00:44:26] Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:44:28] If I thought an alien race might someday uncover these thoughts, I would write about them, but it was still wasn’t for them. It was for, and I didn’t understand what that was. Is this some kind of narcissism? Is this some kind of glorification of my ego? But what it is, is exactly what you just said. It was the desire to communicate. If I were that alone, I would hope for a communication, even if I were not around to enjoy it. You know, we’re always trying-
Tommy Arnold: [00:44:53] That’s a really interesting subtle distinction.
Rachael Herron: [00:44:55] Yeah. It is really subtle, but I hadn’t, I hadn’t realized that. Okay, fabulous. Let’s do, because this isn’t normally
Tommy Arnold: [00:45:04] This…Isn’t all this stuff are super cool? It’s so much fun!
Rachael Herron: [00:45:06] It is so- It’s exciting! And if we were like the, you know, if we were at Denny’s right now, we’d be doing this for the next three hours.
Tommy Arnold: [00:45:13] And that’s why I said we got kicked out of restaurant ‘cause we just ended up talking about this stuff. And they’re like, they turn on the lights and we keep talking and we keep talking and they go, you know, we’re closed for 20 minutes now. Sorry to say something man,
Rachael Herron: [00:45:27] But isn’t it interesting that we are kind of you know, ghetto wise, like the writers and I or we hang out and talk writing all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time. And I didn’t really know that the artists were having the same, of course they are, of course you are. I’m married to an artist and she, she and I have some really intensely interesting discussions about,
Tommy Arnold: [00:45:46] Yes, the same.
Rachael Herron: [00:45:48] Same thing. And I understand like creativity works that way. And actually Tommy, she’s a fan of yours. When I said I was interviewing you guys, she’s like, oh my God, heroine of the night, I just, I just love his work! I’m getting some, I’m getting some street credit.
Tommy Arnold: [00:46:01] Tell her thanks.
Rachael Herron: [00:46:02] Yeah, I will. I will. And this is not a question on the list. How do you guys feel about meditation? Do you either, do either of you practice that?
Micah Epstein: [00:46:11] I wanna punt this up to Tommy.
Tommy Arnold: [00:46:14] It’s only fair. It’s something that I very recently got interested in that I’ve scoffed at for a long time because I feel that I’m, a natural skeptic. But oftentimes when you go in looking to disprove, or if you go in skeptic, but you’re open to the possibilities. I like that place and so I went in based on a book I read this, this place into a- another question that we were going to discuss, which is,
Rachael Herron: [00:46:42] Oh yeah, talk about the book.
Tommy Arnold: [00:46:43] Whatever we read recently that was good. So I read a book by Josh Waitzkin, who is the subject of the caramel feature film searching for Bobby Fischer.
Rachael Herron: [00:46:51] Oh, yeah.
Tommy Arnold: [00:46:52] He was sort of known as a chess prodigy when he was young, and then he moved out of chest and into the world of Tai Chi where he became the international push hands champion. And he talked her out.
Rachael Herron: [00:47:05] Under achiever really.
Tommy Arnold: [00:47:05] Yeah, I mean. Only two things that he was decent at. The book was mediocre. Yeah. But in there he talked about his relationship with meditation and how it’s helped him in his life, and he phrased it in a way, because so much of what I’m sure you end up talking about on this show, and what we talked about in our show is the mental constructs that will enable you to do a certain thing because you have to think about it in a certain way in order to do it and I’m obsessed with those mental constructs. And he put forth the construct for meditation I hadn’t heard before. And he explained it in a way that, you know, he was like, when people try to meditate, they run into this problem. And I was like, yeah, that’s me. And he was like, but that’s not I’ll just paraphrase it here. He basically said, type A personality is people who want to achieve. They go to meditate and they have some thoughts and they go, ah, I’m having thoughts. I’m not,
Rachael Herron: [00:47:56] Failed!
Tommy Arnold: [00:47:57] Failed to do that, I failed. And so then they doubled down. They’re like, I will think of nothing. It’s like one of those moments where someone goes, I’ll be quiet now, starting now, starting now. And he said, it’s that the whole time. And then they’re angry and they get up and they leave and they go, meditation is stupid. And he said, it’s not about not having thoughts. The point is that you return to your breath. So whatever happens, you come back, you, you get lost and you come back. He said, it’s just getting in touch with the fact that you will get lost and then you can come back.
Rachael Herron: [00:48:28] And then the meditation is actually that moment of catching yourself and coming
Tommy Arnold: [00:48:32] Yeah. And you develop this, this more introspective set of, for lack of a better term, neural pathways that come on at other points during your day where you’re out on a walking, you are thinking just, Oh, I had this experience with another human that was honest. So when you’re like, Oh, I’m thinking about that. I’m supposed to be looking at, Hey, that’s a cool house. And then now you’re off on the path you meant to be on. And so yeah, I’ve, I, I don’t do it very, I do it very frequently and not very much. So it’s just 10 minutes a day early. It’s one of the few things I allow myself to make sure I do before I sit down with coffee to work. But I do it now and I have no idea for how long that will last. Cause I’ve certainly done a lot of other things daily at other points in my life, but I’m getting a lot of value from it right now.
Rachael Herron: [00:49:19] I think of them as mental pushups and they allow me to, ‘cause I don’t, I don’t, and I’d like to ask you this, when I’m writing about four or nine times a second, my brain is going, get up, get up, get up, stop, stop. And the mental pushups of meditation make me able to say, “Nope, Nope. I’m just coming back. I’m just coming back.” Micah, why did, why did you punt it off to him? Are you just like an anti-
Micah Epstein: [00:49:43] Oh, no, not at all. I, I, I brought that up because Tommy has been basically telling me all about this stuff recently, and he’s been doing a very good job of selling me on it. I have been planning to get into pretty much for exactly the reasons you all been describing. My answer is going to be a bit more of an oblique tangent, which neither not realized, doesn’t make geometric sense, but I think we all understand what I was going at. So it actually, it does sound like a very logical next step for me, actually, Rachael, for the exact reason you were just describing, because being able to, emotional regulation is something that is becoming increasingly, just desperately fascinating to me. And the ability to weather distraction, not by resisting it, but by sort of folding it into your experience, like I said, Tommy has done a very good job of selling me on that part of it. About a year ago I started studying, cognitive behavioral therapy. Mostly just to deal with like my own anxiety and that was actually one of the things that started me on my whole kick of like, let’s just, let’s completely like break down the car and fix everything from the ground up. Cause it, it has been very interesting. But the process of basically, retooling how you process stimuli or emotions or distractions is something that’s very fascinating to me. And so I have a lot of techniques that I use for that. But meditation sounds like an incredibly useful next step for pretty much all the reasons you all both described up until now.
Rachael Herron: [00:51:25] And I did not mean to proselytize for meditation. I was just wondering across disciplinary
Micah Epstein: [00:51:31] No, the reason why I laughed and punt it off on Tommy just because it’s been a topic that’s come up in a lot of our discussions recently. So it was actually a very timely question.
Rachael Herron: [00:51:38] I could, I could feel it. I could feel it.
Micah Epstein: [00:51:40] Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:51:41] I can hear my wife like fixing the food for dinner. So I would like you both to tell us about, your work, where we can find you about the podcast. Micah, how about you?
Micah Epstein: [00:51:54] Well, I am at a just www.micahepsteinart.com That’s sort of my core portfolio. I’m also on Twitter and Instagram at twitter.com/micahepsteinart, instagram.com/micahepsteinart which I update with, criminal infrequency. And the podcast is really just served the, the main thing that we were both sort of plugging here if there’s any, if there’s any proselytizing going on.
Rachael Herron: [00:52:18] Please tell us about it. Yeah.
Micah Epstein: [00:52:19] Yeah, it’s just, it’s actually in many ways, very similar to the discussion we’ve been having where it’s just a us having discussions about the process and thoughts that go into art making. And that’s, we call it Black, White, Grey, and that’s over at a bwgcast.com/ and at patreon.com/bwgcast
Rachael Herron: [00:52:40] Why is it called that?
Micah Epstein: [00:52:29] It’s so true. I, I, we’ve, we’ve gotten into this on different points. Black, White, Grey is, it’s one of, one of the things we talked about on the show was the idea of the surf. We called mental models, like these container ideas we use to sort of organize information from larger concepts. Black, White, Grey was one of the first and most impactful mental models that was sort of taught to both of us by our shared teacher. The comicers Brian Stelfreeze, and on paper, it’s essentially a way of organizing the values of a painting to make it, read effectively to read and hierarchy, that sort of thing. But I think for both of us, it took on this, much greater personal significance because it was our introduction to this idea of powerful container ideas that you can use to really get into the nuts and bolts of what you do and, and basically enhance your learning by, by studying these concepts.
Rachael Herron: [00:53:41] And that’s one thing I want to thank you both for, because you both stressed something that I find is common among many professional artists is the emphasis on learning. There’s, we’re always studying. We’re always learning because we’re completely fast. I could not sleep last night I was reading a book about writing and I got so lit up that, you know, two hours later I was just spinning, spinning, spinning. I was writing notes in the dark, like a mad woman. I haven’t even looked at yet because I’m scared that I’ll look like a drunk person or something, you know? That’s what we get excited about and learning. So thank you.
Tommy Arnold: [00:54:14] Yeah. It has to be, there has to be that kind of excitement. I mean, Brian, our teacher has another great a sort of mental framework he uses, which is that he says, all creating people, they come in two wavelengths. You’re, you’re like a tape recorder. You’re either recording, you’re bringing in, or you’re in playback.
Rachael Herron: [00:54:31] Oh my God.
Tommy Arnold: [00:54:32] Putting out, and he said,
Rachael Herron: [00:54:33] That is so true.
Tommy Arnold: [00:54:34] Really need like at least four to one recording to play back because you’re just taking in, taking in, taking in. And then when they go, Hey, we got some money, will you, put out and then you’re like, well, I don’t like how you phrase that, but yeah, I can, I can like make you something real quick, here. This is just, and he has, he has this great description for it, which is that like what clients get is what they can find in the garbage. You already ate that meal. It’s in the bin. They see it in there and they go, Hey, we wanted some of that. And you’re like, just right there and just give me some money in that. It’s fine. So he’s like, he kind of thinks that artists’ styles and what they make are the byproduct of everything they’ve taken in.
Rachael Herron: [00:55:10] I can absolutely see that.
Micah Epstein: [00:55:11] Yeah.
Tommy Arnold: [00:55:12] That’s not really you. And it’s an important distinction because when we started out as artists, I felt like what was in the trash was me and I was very concerned with what was in the trash and letting go of that has been the most liberating thing.
Rachael Herron: [00:55:23] Isn’t that interesting though, because when the, at the beginning of your career, you’re not, you’re not able to let anything go out. Now I do not care when I’m done with a project. It’s,
Tommy Arnold: [00:55:32] Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:55:33] I have readers, readers write to me and say, well, what happened after the book end? I’m like, I don’t know. They’re fake. I made the book. I don’t care!
Tommy Arnold: [00:55:39] That’s a great answer. Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:55:44] But yeah, and because I’ve digested that, that’s gone.
Tommy Arnold: [00:55:47] Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:55:48] The gore image and what it looked like.
Tommy Arnold: [00:55:51] Yeah, he has a pension for metaphors.
Rachael Herron: [00:55:54] Tommy, tell me where you could, where can you be found?
Tommy Arnold: [00:55:56] I’m at tommyarnoldart.com
Rachael Herron: [00:55:59] Perfect. It has been such a treat. I basically trust our mutual friend Edward; with anything I’ll do anything he says. He’s, he’s literally the best, and he always tells me the best things. And he said, I should interview you guys, and this has been such a delightful treat. We could keep talking for another couple of hours,
Tommy Arnold: [00:56:16] Yeah. Totally
Rachael Herron: [00:56:17] But I’m also hungry.
Tommy Arnold: [00:56:18] It was nice knowing you’ve met a kindred spirit.
Rachael Herron: [00:56:21] Kindred spirits!
Tommy Arnold: [00:56:22] Yeah
Rachael Herron: [00:56:23] Thank you both of you
Tommy Arnold: [00:56:24] It’s been so lovely.
Micah Epstein: [00:56:25] Thank you so much.
Rachael Herron: [00:56:26] I’ll let you know when it’s live and happy creating.
Tommy Arnold: [00:56:29] Yeah, you too man.
Micah Epstein: [00:56:30] Yeah. Happy creating!
Tommy Arnold: [00:56:31] It was turned out okay
Rachael Herron: [00:56:33] I was scared. Bye.
Micah Epstein: [00:56:35] Bye.
Rachael Herron: [00:56:37] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/
Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.
Join me.
❤️ Let me help you do the work of your heart. ❤️
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