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Ep. 214: Bonnie Tsui on Finding Flow in Writing (and in the Water)

January 21, 2021

Bonnie Tsui is a journalist and longtime contributor to The New York Times. She is the author of American Chinatown, winner of the Asian/Pacific American Award for Literature and a San Francisco Chronicle bestseller. Her new book, Why We Swim, was published by Algonquin Books in April 2020; it was a New York Times Book Review Editors’ Choice, a Boston Globe bestseller, and an L.A. Times Book Club pick and bestseller. Her first children’s book, Sarah & the Big Wave, about big-wave women surfers, will be published by Henry Holt for Young Readers in May 2021.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:16] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #214 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. And if you watch on the YouTube or you might just be able to hear the smile in my voice, I’m so excited to be sharing with you today my interview with Bonnie Tsui for, for her book, Why We Swim. As you may know, I have become a swimming aficionado in the last year and a half or so. I never would have taken winter off had I known that come March, I would not be able to keep swimming the way that I wanted to. So when I saw her book in the store, I had to have it, I grabbed it, I read it, I loved it. And she was kind enough to come on the show and talk about the writing and talk about swimming a little bit, and I just couldn’t be more thrilled to have spoken to her. So I hope you do enjoy that, which is coming up and around here, things are moving briskly. I am about 62,000 words into the book that I’m writing. And actually right now, today, I’m having a little bit of a panic moment where I realized as usual, I don’t have a plot and maybe I need to have a dark moment that I’m moving toward and maybe I need to have something that makes that dark moment happen.

[00:01:41] So this afternoon I will be spending some time actually thinking, using some of the intellection quality from the Clifton strengths that I need to write my books, so I’m kind of looking forward to doing that and rejiggering some things. What I don’t do in a first draft ever is go back and fix anything that would bog me down and I would never move forward. But I do need to remind myself of what’s actually in the book. So about at this point, every time during a book, I like to, I have a little process that I do to look over the book and kind of remind myself of what’s in there. What my goal was, who these characters are, it’s time to get in there and just touch these things again, so I’m kind of excited to do that. Also, it means that I don’t have to do my word count today because my work is actually going to be rejiggering. And I’m only going to spend a few hours this afternoon doing it, doesn’t need to be done again. And then tomorrow I’ll be right back into the first drafting again, which I’m still really loving. So, I’m a brand new person when it comes to that kind of thing. 

[00:02:47] What else is going on? It has been just very busy lately as I closed out one section of 90-days-to-done and 90-day-revision, and this is your official announcement. It is probably, I’m going to say almost, most definitely your only announcement that you will get, if you have been thinking about joining 90-days-to-done, I actually opened two sections this time because of demand and the first one is full. It filled up almost instantly. And I have about four slots left in the second section. So I’m going to tell you a little bit about what 90-days-to-done is about. So this is, this is what it is. The section that is open, we’ll meet on zoom starting January 1st, going through March 31st, we’ll meet on zoom at, on Tuesdays at 4:00 PM Pacific time, 7:00 PM, Eastern time. So if that doesn’t work for you, you can just tune this out. But this is what we do in 90-day- to-done. It is for people who want to write their books and it’s just been taking them longer than they thought. It is for people who have never put up word on the page. It is also for people who have half a book, 75% of a book, but just can’t get to the end. It is for novels and memoirs. What it is not a useful class for is nonfiction. 

[00:04:12] That is about, you know, how to start your business, that kind of really straight up nonfiction. But if you’re writing a novel or a memoir, this class is for you. It is creativity within constraints. You have 90 days, you don’t have six months. You don’t have a year. You are not wasting time. You do the work because of this constraint and be, and what is the really magic part is that it will be better. Your work will be better because of that constraint. I like to remind people that it is never easy to find the time to do the writing of your heart. And it only gets harder as we move forward in our lives. So the time is now, if you want to do this, what else are we doing in this class? I’m just looking at the page here. If you are interested in this, you could go look at it rachaelherron.com/90daystodone the number 90, nine-zero days to done, what you get in it is accountability. You get the one hour weekly live class where there are, a rotating hot seat where we talk about your work. Each meeting is recorded and shared afterward in case you can’t attend live, but I do expect you to attend most of them live because that’s where, so much of the good juicy-ness is, is talking with each other about our work. You get a detailed plan of action every week I teach something new, while at the same time you are writing your book. There is homework, it’s a doable word quota based on your goals. There is no critique in class. However, you, there is a way that you can share some of your work with me. First drafts are too early to critique that kills writers, it stalls writers in their tracks. This is not the class to do that. But the accountability, that action plan is there and you get community, these communities that I put together in 90-days-to-done, they stick together. They stay together. 

[00:06:13] My classes that ended last week have already met this week without me to continue meeting together and supporting each other. Just wanted to share a couple of testimonial quotes, and then we will jump into the interview. But Beverly Armie Williams said about 90-days-to-done; “This wasn’t the first novel I’ve ever finished, but it may well be the least painful one I’ve written. Don’t get me wrong, I love to write, or rather, as the saying goes, I love to have written, but if I’m going to have written, I got to write. And 90-days-to-done provided the space, helped me carve out and commit to the time and built a supporting, supportive writing community in order to get that novel finished. Best of all, Rachael offered craft lessons, useful as a brush-up if you studied writing and priceless if not, answered any and all questions without making me feel dumb and a weekly meeting that was the cornerstone of our community. Rachael’s lessons and handouts are clear, smart, and sensible. Just what a writer needs during the thrills and bumps of getting a novel done in 90 days. And actually Beverly just finished 90 day revision with me too. So that was awesome. 

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Ep. 213: Melissa Storm on Writing with OCD

January 21, 2021

Melissa Storm is a New York Times and multiple USA Today bestselling author of Women’s Fiction, Inspirational Romance, and Cozy Mysteries. Despite an intense, lifelong desire to tell stories for a living, Melissa was “too pragmatic” to choose English as a major in college. Instead, she obtained her master’s degree in Sociology & Survey Methodology—then went straight back to slinging words a year after graduation anyway. She loves books so much, in fact, that she married fellow author Falcon Storm. Between the two of them, there are always plenty of imaginative, awe-inspiring stories to share. Melissa and Falcon also run a number of book-related businesses together, including LitRing, Sweet Promise Press, Novel Publicity, and Your Author Engine. When she’s not reading, writing, or child-rearing, Melissa spends time relaxing at her home in the Michigan woods, where she is kept company by a seemingly unending quantity of dogs and two very demanding Maine Coon rescues. She also writes under the names of Molly Fitz and Mila Riggs.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:16] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #213 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. Thrilled that you are here with me today because I’m talking to Melissa Storm. Melissa is a force of nature in the amount of things she does and the sheer number of books she writes plus, she runs these incredible writing surfaces for authors, which I have personally used and loved. So it was really, really fun to get to talk to her and, I know you’re going to get a lot from listening to her. She’s one of those people that I just kind of glommed onto as a side effect of being obsessed and infatuated with Becca Syme, you know how I am and, yeah, it was a great interview so please hang out for that. 

[00:01:05] What’s been going on around here? Well, gosh a lot, I guess. I won NaNoWriMo which was incredible. I don’t think I won last year. I don’t think I won the year before that, I normally participate in some form or fashion, but this year I was doing it a little bit differently and I know that I was talking through this as November went through, but, I wasn’t aiming for 1,667 words a day. There really wasn’t. I was aiming for whatever I got in an hour to an hour and a half of just sitting down and writing. And when I was writing the whole NaNoWriMo, all of those words were written on the Alpha Smart Neo2. And I know that some of you might be rolling your eyes and saying that is a ridiculous old, archaic machine that you can get for 50 bucks or 60 bucks on eBay. I realized what it is that, that little machine has unlocked for me. You can only see the four lines of text at any time that you’re writing, that’s the key. Not only can I do nothing else on it, it’s not connected to the internet, obviously, it is just a keyboard emulator, which then you can plug into any other computer and dump the words in but the fact that it keeps me from looking back at what I’ve just written, I did not know how much my brain is doing when I’m writing on the computer on the laptop. While I’m writing a sentence, my eyes naturally, and have always done this for as long as I can remember, I guess, that I’ve been on computers. My eyes are always going backwards to see what the paragraph set up there. Am I answering the question? Did I ask a question in dialogue? Do I need to answer it here? Am I doing that? What a, there’s a part of my brain that is processing 9, you know, 7 sentences ago. Is that the best way to say that? We need to go back and make that more clear on the Alpha Smart you can’t do that.

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Ep. 212: Bryan Washington on How Much Setting Matters

January 21, 2021

Bryan Washington is a National Book Award 5 Under 35 honoree, and winner of the Dylan Thomas Prize, the Ernest J. Gaines Award for Literary Excellence, and The New York Times Public Library Young Lions Fiction Award. His new book, Memorial, is the book he wanted to read, the one he didn’t see out in the world. Something that was funny and sexy and yet at times startlingly emotional, featuring people of color, queer people of color, living their lives and dealing with break-ups and falling in love, dealing with being sick, with a parent’s death, with confronting who your parents are as you become an adult, with the meaning of family. He lives in Houston.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:15] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #212 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. So thrilled you’re here with me today as I talked to Bryan Washington, it was a treat to talk to him about his book, which I really, really enjoyed. And we go pretty deep into why setting matters and how setting can act as a character, which is something that I get asked about a lot. So I know that you will enjoy this interview with Bryan. What’s going on around here, NaNo is continuing a pace. I am still ahead of schedule. Who Am I? I’m never ahead of schedule. So that is great. Although I got to admit that today, I just don’t want to write, which means I will write eventually. I have come up with a theory and it’s called The Bra Theory. The Bra Theory of getting your work done, getting your creative work done and it’s a Patreon essay. I’m going to be sending out this week and really it goes like this: You need to set yourself up for success. Feelings don’t matter. Your feelings will always tell you that you don’t want to write, that you don’t want to do your creative work because doing other things is always going to be easier.

[00:01:29] So we set ourselves up for success and we don’t ask questions about our feelings. That is what I have been thinking about a lot. And it’s helpful to remember that I cannot feel like writing, and I could do it anyway. And the truth is, and you know this, is when your fingers are on the keyboard or when your pen is in your hand and your body is in motion and you are making words, that is when the muse comes to tickle your brain pan. That is when she shows up. She doesn’t show up when you’re hoping. That she shows up to bring you to the page. I think there’s this, there’s this myth that the muse takes you by the hand and gently cresses your brow and gets you to do the writing. Absolutely not. You must tempt the muse to you. You must do the work that brings her, to whisper those ideas in your brain that you wouldn’t have had if you were not working.

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Ep. 211: How to Write Dialogue for Characters Very Unlike Yourself

January 21, 2021

In this mini-episode, Rachael Herron answers how to write dialogue for characters who aren’t like you at all, as well as how to breathe life into an old, almost-dead book, and what the heck is the difference between a collection of essays and a non-chronological memoir? 

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron, and this is a bonus episode brought to you directly by my $5 Patreons. If you’d like me to be your mini coach for less than a large mocha Frappuccino, you can join too at www.patreon.com/rachael

[00:00:14] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #211 of “How do you Write?” Today is a mini episode where I answer the questions that you send me. I am your mini coach and I will answer anything that you want. Just become a member of my Patreon at the $5 a month and up level, and you get access to that. So I would like to say a heartfelt and heady and grateful, thanks to everyone on my Patreon, who are my patrons at every single level. You really make the difference in my life of me being able to sit down and do this podcast and to write these essays. I am about to send one out to this morning on, the bra theory of getting your work done. And it is not just for a sis female folk who might or might not wear bras. So doesn’t that peak your interest on you want to read that essay? You could read it for a dollar a month or pay $5 a month and get me to answer some of your questions, which is what I’m going to do right now.

[00:01:19] So, Allen asks here goes, this is a first question from Allen. Allen, thank you very much. As a fairly laid back and sometimes quite taciturn person, that’s a good combination. I like it. Laid back and taciturn. I just had to think about that. Okay. That’s a fairly laid back and sometimes quite taciturn person, I find it difficult to write dialogue for more gregarious, outgoing characters. How do you write for characters whose instincts differ dramatically from your own and still have them sound natural? So it is a fantastic question and it is something that I think writers on the whole generally struggle with this idea of how to make character voices sound distinct and unique, especially when they are not in our own natural voice. So I have been thinking about voice a lot in the last week or two, just as some students have asked me some questions and it strikes me that, are, as I’ve said often before, our voice is our voice, when it comes to writing, you will never be able to hear it. It is like your accent. Everyone else can hear your accent, but you can’t. You kind of have to be told what your voice in writing is because it’s like the fish who lives in water, but doesn’t know that water exists because they are in the water, our brains are always talking to us in our own particular voice language. So when we put our own words down on the page, when we put dialogue down on the page, it is automatically what is just in our brains all the time. And for that reason, it can read as boring or dull or all the same, and we’re not being different enough.

[00:03:07] And that is worrisome. So I understand that feeling, but I don’t actually think it’s something we need to worry about it too much, because it is so easily fixed in revision. And you probably knew I would say that, but what I do with my books is I write them as the book falls out of my fingers and onto the page. And I make that sound like it is easy. It is not. A book never falls out of my fingers, but books do get typed pretty quickly by me and by a lot of other writers and we type it badly, we type it not well. Our books, no book ever comes out into a first draft without needing significant amounts of revision in order to be a good book in order to be publishable quality.

[00:03:53] So, my answer for this is I don’t worry about it. I, everybody in my first draft sounds the way I sound with my voice because I have- I don’t even know who these characters are a lot of times yet I’m learning about them. I might learn that this one might want to be more chatty than I normally am. This one might be more taciturn than I usually am and I don’t worry about it. Once the first draft is done is when I start thinking about, well, sometimes it’s after the second draft, honestly, I usually make this into a pass of my own work is differentiating dialogue and on a really logical level, and Allen you’ve, you’ve shown this is we were able to ask ourselves logically using the logical, rational, revision brain we were able to ask ourselves, what does this character need to sound like? And what do they sound like now? And we can answer that question because we are good at reading we can say this character sounds just like all the other characters, but I want her to sound more gregarious, more chatter boxy. And then that becomes a pass where you can just go through your book, look just at Gloria’s dialogue and make Gloria’s dialogue more chatty than it came out in that first draft or make Diana’s dialogue more taciturn, more quiet shorter sentences, or give this person longer sentences.

[00:05:21] It is such an easy thing to fix in revision that I never worry about it upfront. So if you are struggling with that, make yourself a note that that’s going to be one of your passes is a dialogue pass to make sure that your characters sound the way that they want, that you want them to. One thing that I find very useful when I’m thinking about characters’ voices, and I’m talking about characters who are not my main point of view character, for the most part, although this does apply to those two, is think about what they do. Think about how they see the world. If she is a baker, she’s going to see the world in terms of flavor and measurements and really using words that apply to her as a baker, same thing with the sailor, same thing with a tax accountant that does inform who our characters are and if you push it a little further, it’s fun to play with those ideas.

[00:06:17] A tax accountant, of course, we would think they’d be buttoned up and tight and very precise and know where all the bodies are buried at all times, but what if this particular tax accountant is different and he loves numbers, he loves what he does. Right, he hates what he does. But in this part of his life over here, he is sloppier or messier or more hands off play with I think I’ve gone from voice into actual building of characters who are not our main characters, our main characters, demand rigorous exploration and rigorous thought about their character arc, the smaller characters that are moving around the board. I really have a good time playing with how they might fit into their own trope or how they might break out of it, how I can play with their language and their dialogue later, after the first draft, every once in a while, I will get a character who comes to me with their own voice. And that is always a gift. And I would say it happens one book in 10 for me. So when it does, I really, really enjoy it. So, I hope that that helped Allen. In other words, don’t worry about it until you’re in revision and then it will be easy to fix. That’s one of those easy to fix things. 

[00:07:34] All right, this is from Maggie. Hello, Maggie, sending you lots of love. Maggie, these are personal questions, but hopefully relatable. Number one, when you’ve ditched a whole novel you finished about a year ago because it has so many problems, but now want to jump in and salvage the basic book characters and about 20% of the writing, what would your approach be?

[00:07:58] Okay. So I have done this and I have seen students do this too. I, I do it exactly the same way I approach a major revision and I believe the revision episode for this, the kind of the way I do revision, I believe it’s episode 108 of “How Do You Write?” You can listen to everything I believe about revision. What it comes down to for me is making that sentence outline of what’s in the book and then I use story structure to kind of re-outline what I want the book to be. And then if it is this big, affects, I kind of just start a brand new document and I bring in very little, I just kind of start rewriting the book. And I know that’s painful to hear that is, but you know, what you have said is that you might want to save 20% of the books. So, 80% of that is first draft. Tell yourself, oh, I know it’s painful. Tell yourself that this is a 100% first draft rewrite of this book. That’s the only thing that worked for me to salvage the book that I salvaged. I just started rewriting it every once in a while. I would go dip into the book because I knew where everything was. I had done my sentence outline I knew what was in that old book. And I could go in and grab out a paragraph or two, I honestly grabbed A lot fewer words than I thought I would, because as I wrote the book was changing all the time, so I couldn’t save all the words I thought I could, but I do treat it like a normal revision. And I go in, start with that first scene. Is it the way I want it to be? If not, write a new first draft of the first scene, keeping in mind that all of these things can change later, not holding on too tight. Sometimes when we do this kind of major, major, major, major revision we do get set in our head that this is a revision. So therefore I should be making things better. I think in this kind of major revision, it is better to have beginner’s mind, first draft mind, where you’re just doing a crappy job. You’re doing a crappy job and you’ll fix it later in revision. And that kind of gives you the freedom, the hands-off, the ability to let go and just kind of lean into this first drafting process of the play and the fun and the weirdness and how nothing fits together yet accepting all that and moving forward, I think might be really, really helpful. 

[00:10:17] Number two question from Maggie, a different book, advice on revising the first 10 to 20 pages when you realize the tone and pace is quite different than the rest of the book, the voice is the same. I wrote it that way to set how oppressive her, her normal life is. So there is market change by the end, but now it feels like a barrier for people to get past those first pages, which can be so important for readers/agents, et cetera. As always thank you, as always Maggie, you are welcome. I think that’s a really good and interesting question. So it is important in our books to set up the status quo. We need to see our characters in their normal life and their status quo for a while. Because we need to establish empathy for them, connection, and understanding the reader needs to understand what they’re in before the inciting incident happens at which point they decide to do something different and enter a new world. So we do need to see them in their old world in order for that to mean something to the reader. Knowing that, they could be in this really awkward, uncomfortable beginning place. There’s a couple of ways to ensure that this doesn’t bog down the reader too much and it both, both methods come down to wedding the readers’ appetite. First off you could have a very quick prologue. I, you know, a page or two, which shows your main character at a critical, interesting point in her future that you’re going to get to in the book, that shows that particular how did you put it a particular tone and pace of the rest of the book to tell it was basically guarantees the reader.

[00:12:04] Look, I’m going to get to this tone and pace. We’ve got to go backwards a few steps, see our character in her status quo life. And then I’m going to get you there. Or, you can do that in a smaller way by showing your character inside that tone and pace of the rest of the book. Just for a little bit maybe as something arises, some kind of situation, which requires action in this hook at the beginning of the book show her acting that way. And again, it’s this tacit unspoken promise that you’re making to the reader. Like I’m going to come back to them and we’re going to get there I think you’re being very smart to think about it, but I also think that’s not a but, I think you’re being very smart to think about it. And I also believe that readers, even when they’re unable to explain this out loud, which is most of the time readers who are readers don’t understand this stuff, they just know what they like they understand that this is status quo and that this person is going to change. So they do, they can kind of lean into, Oh, this sucks, right? This sucks where this character is. I wonder how she’s going to get out of it. So you have a little leeway and some play there, which will allow the reader to keep reading. So, what I’m saying is I’m glad you’re thinking about it and don’t worry about it too, too much so hope about hopes. 

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Ep. 210: Pam Rosenthal on Not Letting the Page Know You’re Afraid

January 21, 2021

Pam Rosenthal has written award-winning sexy historical romance and award-winning brainy BDSM erotica, as well as occasional essays and reviews for Salon.com, the SF Chronicle, Dearauthor.com, and Socialist Review. She stands behind the quality of her product, but confesses that her writing process has been more than a little bit fraught. Currently, she’s looking toward making peace with that process, while she continues to work with her husband and longtime creative partner at their copyediting business — not to speak of working her ass off to elect Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, and a Democratic Senate.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:16] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode # 210 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. Thrilled you’re here with me today. Today, I’m talking to the fabulous Pam Rosenthal who has a lot of great stuff to say, including on why you shouldn’t let the page know that you’re scared of it. But let me tell you a little bit about my history with Pam. I, it was probably one of my very first national RWA’s: Romance Writers of America conferences, we were in Orlando, I believe it was bloody hot. And she won the Rita. I believe for historical novel. She won the Rita. That is like winning an Oscar and say what you will about the implosion of RWA that has occurred in this last year. I am no longer a member. I’m no longer on the board. I’m all the way out, but RWA was so pivotal and so important for a lot of people in learning the business and craft of writing. And that was, we’re not even gonna get into the RWA stuff. I’ve talked about it before, but I’m at this conference, and this woman walks into our suite holding her Rita and I got to hold it. And she was so modest and self-effacing, and really, I could tell she was surprised that she had won it.

[00:01:42] So, I read her book and it was astonishing. She’s such an incredible writer. If you’re looking for incredibly smart, incredibly sexy, erotic books that have true depth and meaning, and are also joyous and fun. I’m saying, go pick up a Pam Rosenthal. So I was elated to get the chance to interview her for this. So you’re going to enjoy that, now that I’ve built her up as she deserves. What’s going on around here? Well, I am happily NaNo-ing along, I am, I think about 30,000, 32,000 into this new book. And I just kind of want to talk for a moment about what a crappy first draft looks like, because I hear from students a lot that they think they are writing the crappiest first draft that has ever existed. I’m sorry, you can’t, because that is what I do really, truly what my words look like on the page are a gobbledygook mess. The one thing I do not allow myself to do is ever go back and edit or revise anything. The one exception to that is if I need help getting into writing for the day, I’ll go back and look at the previous day’s writing and kind of smooth that a little bit, you know, correct all the misspellings, put things into Italics that I had put into caps because I’m using a program that won’t allow Italics. You know, I’m generally writing on the alpha smart nowadays. So there are no Italics on that, doing that kind of thing, but otherwise, I have a whole books worth of snippets, fragments, sometimes I have a whole scene. Sometimes I have a whole really good scene, but more often I have these fragments of scenes that I don’t know what I’m going to do with. I don’t know if they’re going to fit. I allow myself to stop writing a fragment of a scene at any point. As long as I don’t go back and edit, I can do anything.

[00:03:42] I generally don’t write out of order. And this is just me, when it comes to jumping ahead. But I do write out of order when it comes to jumping back, because as I’m writing forward, I often have a really good idea for something that should have happened before. And I will sketch that out. It’s not, it still counts to me as moving forward because it’s brand new words. And I don’t go back and look where in the book it should go. I just usually write in all caps, fit in somewhere. And then I write the little snippet of the scene that I see that could help me later. And then I write in all caps going back to, and then I go back to where I was. Nothing has to be pretty, nothing has to be smooth. And in fact, you’ve heard me say this a million times and I’m going to argue for it again. I think that nothing should be beautiful or smooth. The more beautiful you make your writing in a first draft, the more impossible it will B to C, that that particular scene or scenes do not fit in the book you actually end up writing. We always think we’re writing one book. It’s never true. We are writing a different book and we will not know that until after two, three, four, five revisions, then we’ll know what the book really wants to be. And if we’ve made the language beautiful, if we’ve made those scenes really strong on their own as a scene, it’s much more painful to lift them out later. 

[00:05:07] And indeed, sometimes it’s impossible to see that you should. It’s much easier for me if I have a bunch of crappy scenes, when I’m in revision to apply my brain to the problem at hand and see, oh yeah, that really doesn’t. That seems not doing anything for me. It’s a bunch of crap. It is very easy to put into the trash pile. So that is why I do this. That is why, why I think this is best practice for most writers, not all writers, but for most writers I’ve ever, ever dealt with this is best practice for them. Don’t make any of them pretty, until you know, it has earned its place in your book and you cannot know what kind of scene, even what kind of character, even what kind of plot belongs in your book until that big first draft is done and until your elbows deep in the second draft and making it make sense for the first time. Your first draft should not make that much sense in a lot of ways. And it is still how we do it and can still be so fun. And I just feel like this book has been kind of gift like to me in the everyday when I sit down, I’m having fun. It’s just still a good time. I have no idea what’s going on. I am headed toward the midpoint. I know what’s going to happen there. I have no idea what’s going to happen to the rest of the book. I haven’t figured it out. I have love interests. Don’t know what to do with her. Not a clue, but she’s sexy. And I’m liking that I’m writing. This is really my first time writing a gay love interest in a mainstream book. So that’s been super fun. It’s not a romance, but it has a romance in it because life has romance in it. So I dunno, I’m having a great time. 

[Read more…] about Ep. 210: Pam Rosenthal on Not Letting the Page Know You’re Afraid

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Ep. 209: Matt Haig on Literally Writing the Multiverse

January 21, 2021

Matt Haig is the author of the internationally bestselling memoir Reasons to Stay Alive and Notes on a Nervous Planet, along with six novels, including How To Stop Time, and several award-winning children’s books. His work has been translated into thirty languages, and his brand new book is The Midnight Library. 

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:16:00] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #209 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron and I am thrilled you are here. Today, I get to talk with the amazing Matt Haig about his new book, The Midnight Library, which I fell head over heels in love with. It is about books and libraries and the multi-verse, it’s got a little bit of everything and he writes with humor and kindness, and I just love his work and it was delightful to talk to him. So that is coming up. You have that to look forward to. 

[00:52:00] What is going on around here? Well, for the first time in many years, I am still ahead in NaNoWriMo national novel writing month. It is the 12th of November as I record this and I’m a couple of thousand head, this doesn’t happen. This doesn’t happen to me. Usually by now, I am three or four days behind and I kind of do the whole giving up thing that I have talked about in the past, saying, well, I can’t get 6,000 words a day. I guess I lost NaNo. This month though, I went into it with the intention of every day is a new day, every day, 1667 words. Again, that’s my goal. I tend to write books quickly, but not usually my books take about two to three months to write not one month and right now, actually I am taking two months to write a book. My goal is to be done by the end of December. However, I’m going to win NaNo on the way that’s one of my goalposts is winning NaNo with 50,000 words. And I, I honestly tried to remember and I meant to pull it up and then I forgot. I can’t remember if I talked about my alpha smart last week. But you know what, if I did, I can talk about it again. An alpha smart, is basically just a keyboard. It is a keystroke emulator. So it’s a, the big plastic keyboard that looks like one of those, you know, TRS eighties that we had in the eighties, I guess, I guess it was eighties, maybe early nineties. I can’t remember. That we would plunk on and it looks like you should be printing it out on dot metric paper. But what it does is you type on it. You can’t do anything else. There’s no internet, there’s no nothing. You can just type and see four lines at once it runs on AA batteries, it lasts forever.

[00:2:38] And then when you’re done typing, whatever it is, you’re typing, you just hook it up to your computer and you hit send, and then it types it for you. Kind of like a player piano. You get to watch your words on roll across the screen. And while it types quickly, it still takes, you know, 5 or 10 minutes to download what you’re doing. So you got to walk away from your work and, and it feels good to walk back and say, how many words did I get? Oh my God, I got 2,400 words in an hour. That’s fantastic. So, the alpha smart has been helping me immensely. I have set up a NaNo routine, which I haven’t done in a long time. And it’s a little bit new to me because the office part is due to me. It’s a Neo too, for those of you curious they don’t make them anymore, but you can get them on eBay.  

[00:3:23] I go to my little desk right here, the desk that is not my work desk that I’m sitting at right now. It’s just a 90 degree turn from where I am, but I get to look out to the street. I light a candle. I put my headphones in. I listened to calm and soothing jazz, do not mock me. It works. And I’ve been playing with this book. I’ve just been playing every day that I started to not enjoy the writing, I’ve back up and I say, okay, what’s fun. What is fun? How can I throw something into the mix here that goes along with her character arc, but ups the stakes, I need more high jinx. I need more fun, and surprise, and excitement. And it’s working. It’s, I’m really, really having a good time playing with this book. So that has just been a joy. It has been a long time since I worked on a first draft. I’ve been revising for the last seven or eight months, I think on, a couple of different books. So this is, this is fun. I’m enjoying this first draft. And I just wanted to share that with you. I hope that if you are doing NaNo, if you are behind throw out the behind number. Today, you need to get 1,667 words, and tomorrow 1,667 words. And if you’re short at the end of NaNo, you can either say, oh my gosh, I have 40,000 words. I’m an amazing person. Or if you want to win, you can sit down and have a terrible day of writing, terrible words and get 10 or 15,000 words. You can do that too. Me, if I miss it, I will just take that as a miss and, and a good number of words, but I don’t think I’m going to miss it. I think I’m going to make it.

[00:04:59] Nothing else really going on around here. So I will stop this update. I am just happy with how writing is going, and I hope that you are too. I hope that you come some place and tell me all about it. And next week I will do the drawing for the two books I talked about last week. I’m giving away, if you would like to enter to win either of those two books, CJ Cooke’s The Nesting or Becca Syme’s Dear Writer, You Need to Quit. You can go to RachaelHerron.com/Win and sign up there. So, I’m extending that for a week. So happy writing. Come find me. Tell me how your writing is going. And thank you for listening. Please enjoy this interview. 

[00:05:40] Hey, is resistance keeping you from writing? Are you looking for an actual writing community in which you can make a calls and be held accountable for them? Join RachaelSaysWrite, like twice weekly, two hour writing session on zoom. You can bop in and out of the writing room as your schedule needs, but for just $39 a month, you can write up to 4 hours a week. With our wonderful little community, in which you’ll actually get to know your writing peers. We write from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM on Tuesdays and 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM on Thursdays and that’s US Pacific Standard Time. Go to RachaelHerron.com/Write to find out more.

Rachael Herron: [00:06:21] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show today, Matt Haig. Matt, hello! 

Matt Haig: [00:06:26] Hello, Rachael. Thank you for having me.

Rachael Herron: [00:06:28] I’m thrilled to have you. I loved this new book of yours. Loved it, loved it. And I want to talk about that and your process of writing, but I want to give you a little introduction first. Matt Haig is the author of the internationally bestselling memoir Reasons to Stay Alive and Notes on a Nervous Planet, along with six novels, including How to Stop Time and several award-winning children’s books. His work has been translated into 30 languages and his brand new book is The Midnight Library. I want to tell you a tiny bit of a story, Matt, for some reason, I got your book on net galley from our shared publisher and, and then I just forgot about it. And I realized two days ago that we had this interview coming up and I thought, oh gosh, I better dip into that book, but it’s a lib- it’s a book about libraries. And I just finished that beautiful book about libraries. And I don’t want to read another book about libraries and I realized I’d accidentally read yours, a month ago when I first got it. And it had it just seared in my brain. And for some reason I didn’t put the title with your name together. And it’s so good. It’s so fun. And I want to talk about this whole multi-verse idea, but first of all, can you tell us a little bit about your process and how you get all this writing done? Where, where, and when.

Matt Haig: [00:07:41] Well, yeah, I’m, you know, I’m not really a writer with a very predictable routine. It really fluctuates. I have months of procrastination, trying to form ideas, writer’s block, all of that stuff, staring at a blank word documents and not getting anywhere. And then at the other end of the scale, when I’ve got the idea, when I’m halfway through the novel, you know, seven days a week, all waking hours. I’ll just be there just typing away. So it’s kind of like a, kind of bipolar existence of one extreme to the other. And, I, you know, I sometimes think I need to have more of a sort of a rigid routine, but I actually think it’s kind of the only way I can work because I kind of need that period of procrastination. And I’m feeling like I’m unproductive limit. I’m not actually unproductive, but we’re so conditioned to think that unless we’re actively doing or physically creating in that moment, but it’s kind of wasted time and we still feel that in our lives generally, but certainly in our working lives. And to be a writer I feel like, you know, so much of writing happens when you’re not actually writing, when you’re just sort of like walking or you’re, you know, walking the dog or you’re out with your friends or you’re out in the garden or whatever you’re doing. And, yeah. I mean, so actually for me, when I’m actually stuck with my writing, I rather than just a plow through, I, I feel like the best thing I can do is to just sort of step away and do something else. And very often the biggest breakthroughs within a novel or a story happen when you’re not actually at your laptop, when you’re not in your word document, writing away 

Rachael Herron: [00:09:29] often when you’re not thinking about it at all, at all, at all.

Matt Haig: [00:09:33] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:09:33] Just- 

Matt Haig: [00:09:34] At all. Yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:09:34] it lands on you full. Yeah 

Matt Haig: [00:09:36] Oh, that’s lovely. Yeah. The loveliest moment. I mean, it’s lovely in one sense, it’s frustrating that you can’t, you can’t ever, by definition, you can’t create those moments, but what you can do, you can switch off. And sometimes I feel like I don’t want to get to sort of pretentiously psychological or philosophical, but I- I’m, I’m a great fan of Young. You know, rather than Freud, I mean into Young. And in, in, in the red book, which was only sort of like published this century, because it’s all his scribblings from his psychotic episode, he writes about the spirit of the times, and the spirit of the depths. Being the two side of human nature. By the spirit of the times, he meant being so plugged into politics and what’s happening in the world and the world around you and the external stuff and the spirit of the depths is a sort of deeper existential human truth of view. And I feel like nowadays we’re so tilting towards the spirit of the times. And we’re so lost in the spirit of times, whether it’s like the latest American presidential debate or whether it’s you know, Coronavirus or whatever catastrophe, there’s so much to distract us in, in this kind of “hell-scape” that we, we, we feel we’re in, that we’re fed through Twitter and rolling news and all of that. And which yeah, we have to engage with. I’m not saying we don’t have to engage with that. We obviously have to engage. We have to get angry. We have to get organized about the world and stuff, but at the same time, we shouldn’t neglect another truth, which is the sort of inner truth of ourselves and the sort of what he called the spirit of the depths which you know, I’m quite into, as an idea. And he said, he thought, if you tilt too far one way or another, you end up with neuroses and going a bit mad. And I felt like collectively we’re so plugged into the spirit of the times. There’s a kind of collective madness is happening from all the world, BS that we’re, we’re surrounded by. 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:38] So then, if you’re, how do you honor the spirit of the depths in yourself? On a daily basis if you’re not actually actively deeply in a book. 

Matt Haig: [00:11:47] Well, books are one way, to do, if you’re reading a book, you know, I actually sort of like to step back and sort of meditate, I feel like books now are probably more valuable than ever in terms of giving you that sort of meditative space, where they’re interactive in a very deep sense, but they’re not interactive in the sense that you, you feel obliged to give them a Facebook Like or,

Rachael Herron: [00:12:09] It’s really interesting that you say that though. I agree completely. And I’ve been reading some rather heavy stuff lately and, and I find myself with a reaction when reading it, that I need to do something with that information. I should probably highlight it. I should probably copy it onto a card. I should probably share it 

Matt Haig: [00:12:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:26] with data. And I think that’s the spirit of the time affecting the spirit of the deep, instead of just reading, taking in and thinking. You know, 

Matt Haig: [00:12:25] Yes

Rachael Herron: [00:12:26] the, the spirit to move is so present. 

Matt Haig: [00:12:38] Yes, absolutely. And I, I hate that about myself. Like when, when I, when I have a thought and I can’t just let it be a thought and I’m trying to shape the thought into a tweet in my head. Like- 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:51] Yes, there’s nothing- I have done this during yoga. I have done this during meditation. I actually took myself off Twitter for about six months to see if I could break that thought cycle. It wasn’t anything about the time I was spending. I wasn’t spending too much time, but my brain forming tweets around my life was unacceptable and it actually did break it.

Matt Haig: [00:13:10] Yeah. Oh, that’s good. Yeah, I’m learning. I mean, what I’m doing now, prompted by my partner is to actually have like Sundays completely devoid of screens, not TV screens. I watched, like we watched with the kids, we watched some like it hot on Sunday and we watched an old classic movie or something, but to switch off from, you know, phones and laptops and emails and, and they’re designed to be so addictive and to play with our sense of guilt. I think like, for instance, like, you know, the fact that people can see when they’ve seen a message. I thought you feel like you have to respond to that message or you’re a bad person, but to actually have freedom to not get back to emails, to not get back to text messages to just, you know, I, I’m now religious- because I’m someone who finds balance hard unless I sort of like set a day in my calendar and say write, and some days I don’t do it at all. You know, cause if I say I’ll just do 20 minutes it ends up being two hours. So if I just say write, I’m not doing that at all. I find that easier than just having 20 minutes. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:21] I love that. I want to try that someday. Maybe not this week. 

Matt Haig: [00:14:24] It’s a scroll free Sunday. Well, I know, I know there’s always a reason though. There’s always a reason. There’s always seems to be a, the news seems to be getting exponentially bigger. You know, it’s always something. And I suppose, like, with you in California, you’re thinking, well, I need to, I need to be plugged in because I need to be knowing about wildfires. I need to be knowing about this, that the other and 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:29] Can I open the windows today? 

Matt Haig: [00:15:34] Can I open the window? Yeah. Has the zombie apocalypse happens yet? Are we there? Yeah, so it is, it’s, it’s a, it’s an addictive kind of world we’re in and we’re all trying to make it better, but we all have a sense that maybe, maybe we’re just contributing to, to it in our own way, you know, I never, Twitter’s the thing I’m really ambiguous about because I’ve spent so much time vending on Twitter, venting about politics, venting about personal life, venting about mental health. You always have the underlying suspicion that in trying to make it better, are you actually making it better? Are you contributing to the noise divisiveness? I don’t know. So yeah, more spirit of the depths. That’s what I’m sharing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:29] And more spirit of the depths. Amen. Amen. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing? 

Matt Haig: [00:15:34] Biggest challenge. Well, I have a lot, I think indecisiveness. I’m I, I don’t really get proper writer’s block as such. I’ve always got something to write. I just don’t know if it’s any good or if that’s the idea I should be choosing. So I found my biggest challenge is having that barometer of knowing this is a story I should be writing. So I’ll have a lot of ideas in my head about all, obviously be a varying quality of varying interest if I wrote them. But I have, I- I’m quite bad in the initial stages of working out, which is the one that’s going to have legs, which is the one that’s going to be the most interesting. And so I actually have to write quite a chunk of it and ended up often abandoning quite a lot of writing because until I’ve written it, I don’t know. So I wish I was a bit better at that. So my- yeah, about challenging actually knowing what’s going to resonate initially before writing. I think I’m quite good as it goes on. I’m quite sort of self-critical and I, I, you know, that famous sort of polished detective I’m quite good at knowing when things aren’t working and I’m not shy to sort of scrap things or abandoned things or chop a chapter. I, I’m not scared of, you know, I don’t get too precious about it, but it’s just that, that initial thing of having different ideas and knowing which direction to go at the start is it takes me frustratingly long to get there as it did with The Midnight Library and my previous novel, had sometimes it takes me a while to go

Rachael Herron: [00:17:05] What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing then? 

Matt Haig: [00:17:09] Biggest joy actually is when you’ve got the idea and you are on the first draft and you are literally the only person who has read your work and that is the thing, but that, that is pure writing to me. And that’s the aspect of writing. It doesn’t matter whether you’ve never have had a novel published in your life or whether you’re Stephen King, that is writing. You know, that aspect every writer has that you know, the stuff outside it and stuff to do in a publication, that’s a bit that fluctuates in degrees and that’s where, how popular you are or what your Goodreads ranking is and all of that. But the actual act of writing itself, I think you have to keep a love for that, for that first draft feeling when it’s flowing well. Obviously there’s times you just want to bang your head against the wall. It’s frustrating. But when you, when you kind of, when things are going right or when you surprise yourself, like you’ve imagined something you haven’t planned to imagine, but you’re just taking a left turn here or something. I think, I think that’s the moment where it feels like a really sort of fun activity, almost like a sport, I guess, sort of fishing and you’re finding new stuff that you didn’t have before, you know. I, I’m a bad editor in terms of when the editors involved and maybe you get the notes in and I really respect my editor. My editor’s very wise person and gives me good notes. But I find that process, it feels really like work and it feels like you’ve got a job in that that sense, but there’s moments in a, in a good first draft where it doesn’t feel like work and you’re sort of really enjoying it. And you almost can get into like a little trance state when you’re lost in your own daydreams. And, and that’s the stuff that always stays good. You know, you, you get, you know, a little bit as you get a little bit more well-read and a bit more well-known, I think the neuroses ramp up a little bit around publication and you think, well, what are you going to say? And, Oh, that’s amazing. I’m going to get a New York Times book review, but then you’re just like, well, what they’re going to say, this could be devastating and so all those stupid things that shouldn’t be problems, which are privileges, but, but you turned them into problems and yeah, but the actual the calming thing for me, and actually, the way I cope with having a book come out and be criticized or not criticized or whatever it is, the way I cope with that reaction, which is they’re all on set. Even the good stuff is unsettling. That’s what, that’s what I’ve discovered about my mind. I find even, even praise can be unsettling because you get too lost in that outer, you know, going back to the young you’re too plugged into the art. So the way to sort of calm and center yourself is to just sort of hide away and start writing something new. I think. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:45] Hiding away in the writing is really wonderful. And I feel like writers have this gift that we’ve been giving- given during this pandemic. They do have a place to go and lose ourselves in a really, really deep way. Can you share a craft tip of any sort on writing?

Matt Haig: [00:20:00] Craft tip

Rachael Herron: [00:20:01] Yes!

Matt Haig: [00:20:04] Right. Okay. Craft tip. Well, this is possibly, you know, it’s a very subjective craft tip, but I, 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:13] The best kind.

Matt Haig: [00:20:14] Well, I am into breaking certain rules and the rule, you know, a lot of unwritten rules cause books look a certain way often. And, you know, in terms of like chapter lengths, a chapter length tends to be in the average novel, I don’t know between 10 and 20 pages and that’s sort of like a given and I sometimes do that, but sometimes I like to actually see a book and the page as a visual thing, as well as something you just read, I’m quite a visual person. I don’t actually see it as a visual thing. So I actually kind of like short chapters. So what I did with my very first number, when it wasn’t working. I, it was about 12 chapters long. I broke it up into something like 120 chapters. I scattered it and playing about with that and seeing certain paragraphs as, as sort of standard individual things. Really helped me understands what I’m doing. So I think my main craft tip is just kind of forget, in some ways that books have been written before. And you’ve got this story to tell. With the English language and you’re, you’re, you’re forgetting in, in, in, in some sense you’re forgetting the other books exist and you’re thinking, how best do I tell this particular story? And you forget about conventions in terms of how long chapters have to be, or how long paragraphs have to be or how you, you just communicate it. And it doesn’t mean you have to be sort of like overly pretentious or do something incredibly artistic or write poems halfway through the page or anything like that. It’s just, I think it can help clear the communication if you’re, if you’re, you know, uniquely doing it as you, how you want to communicate. And so, and also it’s a trick. I think, cause we all like to feel that we’re turning through the pages fast and the one psychological trick you can make that happen. If you’ve got a lot of white space in your book, they are going like that. They are turning the pages very fast. And it’s a nice feeling because I don’t know about you, but I don’t like that feeling of going to sleep halfway through a chapter ending, you know, I like that feeling of finishing a chapter 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:27] See and I’m, I’m the anomaly but I love to stop right when I’m really enjoying something, I’ll stop in the middle of a sentence during the crisis of a book and put it down and say, Ooh, I’m gonna do that later. 

Matt Haig: [00:22:38] Okay. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:28] No one understands.

Matt Haig: [00:22:39] So that’s like, yeah, no, I get that as well. It’s like, you know, about Keat’s quote about the Unkissed Lips. It’s kind of like that moment of like to come. Yeah, I get that too. I get that too. But, I saw a program once, I can’t remember what it was, but it talks about the difference in skyscrapers between New York and Chicago. And it said that like in New York, the skyscrapers were all sort of crammed up together in Midtown. It’s very sort of cramped together, whereas in Chicago, the space around the skyscrapers and, and because the space around the skyscraper’s, you actually pay more attention to the individual structure of the skyscraper become more iconic. So, I think maybe an introvert, because my dad’s an architect or something, but I like the idea of a chapter being right. Like you can create space around it visually and you actually draw more attention. So you can take a line out of a chapter and you wouldn’t notice it in a chapter. But if you, if you turn that line into an entire page on a page venue, you’re suddenly, your attention is drawn to that. So I think there was a line somewhere in the book. And I don’t break up my books like that until the end, but I sometimes think, Oh, if I, if a line comes at a key moment, I think I’ll just turn that line and just put it on its own page and then yeah, so it’s a lot of that stuff, but yeah, 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:57] I love that

Matt Haig: [00:23:58] it’s not, it’s not, it’s definitely not right for every book, but for me, 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:00] But for playing. Yeah. 

Matt Haig: [00:24:02] Like being playful. Yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:03] I love that. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way? 

Matt Haig: [00:24:10] Oh, okay. Well, the realization, I don’t know if this is the right answer to this, but one thing that changed for me as a writer is I used to have a writing room and then now I don’t have a writing room. I like literally write on my sofa and write with my laptop. And I actually think I write better and more productively, now I don’t have a writing room.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:38] Why? Why is that?

Matt Haig: [00:24:40] I don’t know. And again, this is very subjective. This is very me, this is not the universal. I think it’s because as soon as I have a writing room and it’s an office and it feels like it’s work, I go into work mode and I feel like for creativity, it helps to be a bit in play mode. And so if I’m on my sofa and writing, I actually like, and I’m also a writer who kind of likes a bit of background noise because I have tinnitus. So I have ringing in my ears all the time. So I- it’s not, it doesn’t, it doesn’t swap my life or anything. There’s lots of times I don’t hear it, but if it’s total silence, I’ll be aware of ringing in my ear. So I’ve got conditioned to having background noise and we’ve got kids. So there’s often a lot of background noise, but interestingly, when we bought a house here, I bought it because it had a shed in the garden and I thought I was going to be like Roald Dahl, 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:32] Heck yeah

Matt Haig: [00:25:33] Who famously had had a shed and walk out to his writing shed. And that didn’t happen, and that wouldn’t happen and the trouble is, in, in a cold rainy day, when you just want to get up and be warm in your pajamas, you wouldn’t go out to the shed. And, yeah, writing on the sofa has been the thing. I think, I think you can look at my books. If you look at my early books that were written in a writing office versus the books that are written on the sofa, they’re more enjoyable, the ones that are written on the sofa, because I was probably enjoying myself.

Rachael Herron: [00:26:06] That’s fascinating. So I wonder, I wonder if you are, if you’re Uber fans who have read every single thing you’ve ever written online. 

Matt Haig: [00:26:14] Well, the ones, yeah, the ones where I was in a sort of uncomfortable chair. Well, it’s something I massively changed. I massive, I mean, I’ve, I’ve written quite a few books and a lot of sort of them are seriously unread books that no one really read but my first three books, well, the first one did okay in the UK, but then the second, third didn’t lose as well. And they were so bleak. And it’s so interesting because now if I’m criticized, as I sometimes get criticized by reviewers in the UK, they will always say the same thing. They’ll say, Oh, you know, it descends into sort of optimistic platitudes or become like a, sort of like a Facebook wall of, they always say that same thing. And I’m not actually uniquely proud of that because, well, first and foremost, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not a snob about inspirational quotes. If someone can say something in a simple way, even if it feels a bit clichéd, it’s simple, clear expression to someone else that offers some comfort. I don’t, I don’t see what’s wrong with that, but also, you know, I, I, the writing that I’m ashamed of having written was when I was younger and I thought that to be a writer, you kind of had to reflect the bleakness and pessimism of the world. And, you know, I, I literally wrote a book called The Possession of Mr. Cave, which got very well reviewed. No one read it at all, but reviewers read it mean I really liked it because it was totally miserable. And literally everyone died in it. It was just a terrible, don’t read that book. And anyway, you know, about had no optimism or no sort of happy platitudes, and so they’d say, and I reached a point and I don’t know what happened in my thirties, but I thought if you’re contributing somethings of the world, why be ashamed of putting some sort of hope inside it or some optimism inside it? I’m someone who genuinely in my twenties, I nearly died because the pessimism, because I was suicidally depressed and depression gave me pessimism. And that pessimism wasn’t real. Yes, I know we live in a screwed up world, but so the voice in my head that depression was giving me was like, Oh, you will definitely be dead by the age of 25, your partner will leave you. This will happen. Nothing good will happen. Dah, dah, dah, dah. You know, that became like a sort of Fox news of the brain, which was just as beaming with sort of. Beaming with sort of tire of cycle of, of stuff. And so, in a, in a way optimism was more authentic for me, optimism was, and not only that, even if pessimism and optimism are equally inauthentic, only one of those things is useful and that’s optimism. Pessimism is not psychologically useful. So optimism, you have to, you have to have some hope. And instead, what I try and do now is take a pessimistic such situation or a person in a bad place, or a terrible situation, like a suicide, a woman between life and death or whatever. And try and then find the hope inside. And I think that’s a bit more useful. And, and I know it’s a bit weird to talk about novels having a use, but I feel like, you know, why not offer something as a human communicating to another human? That got some, 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:21] You know it’s perfect- perfect segue into the book. Will you please tell us a little bit about what the book is? Saying 

Matt Haig: [00:29:27] Yes. Sure. The Midnight Library is a book about a woman between life and death who finds herself in this infinite library. And all the books on the shelves are different versions of her life if she had lived it a different way, and she’s someone who’s full of regrets. So one of the book, which is the book of regrets reminds her of all the things and decisions she’s made that she regrets. So she now got a chance to undo those regrets and live in a different, try out these different existences with the help of a librarian; Mrs. Alum is God-like librarian and she gets to see if the grass really is greener in the life where she was an Olympic medalist of a life, where she was a rock star or a glaciologist, or owns a vineyard or whatever. So she can see, and some of those lives obviously is grass isn’t greener, some of those layers are perfectly fine, but maybe not right for her. And she has to work out the best way to live. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:20] And it is beautiful. And wonderfully written 

Matt Haig: [00:30:24] Thank you.

Rachael Herron: [00:30:25] Dragged me through. Generally, I start the books and then I only finished them if they drag me through and it just dragged me through beautifully. So, what you’re exploring in this book is really the idea of multiverses, right?

Matt Haig: [00:30:39] Yes

Rachael Herron: [00:30:40] Of every choice that we do not take creates an infinite number of multiverses. Do you, do you believe in that? 

Matt Haig: [00:30:47] I do, actually. I think that’s a good scientific basis for believing in that. There’s a, a book by, I think he’s American, a guy called Brian Green who wrote a book called The Hidden Reality about how all our, current scientific thinking leads to the idea that are multiverses, they might be different kinds of multiverses like there’s a uni- some people believe in universe beyond the universities and others believe that the multiverse is right inches away from us if you’ve just done a different thing. But yeah, I, I, I, I do, but I also believe that we have the power to always enter a new universe within our own timelines and the, by the things we do. And I find that a very empowering thought because it can be a bit of a sort of depressing thought to think, Oh, there’s always better lives out there, but to actually realize you’ve got the power within your life to not necessarily become a billionaire or a rock star or whatever, but to actually, you know, suddenly within the same situation, within the same people in your life to actually have a totally different outlook opponent and I think that’s very helpful. 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:49] What you did with your book too, in the framing of it, using the books as the device to display that, I thought was so approachable and understandable because I often think about the multiverse and get very confused and stuff, thinking, and then pick up Twitter. But it allowed me to think of it in another, in another way. It’s an infinitely branching library and it’s all hers. And I just want to say that I recommend it to anyone, especially anyone who likes books, did you have Mrs. Elm yourself? 

Matt Haig: [00:32:20] Yeah. Mrs. Elm is a bit of an amalgam, but I definitely had an English teacher who was a bit like Mrs. Elm, like who seriously got me into books or something that weren’t just things that are bad to be sort of worthwhile and do me good. But there is a, a proper thrilling life enhancing entertainment medium like cinema or whatever else it is. And yeah, she was one of those people. And, my grandmother, actually, my grandmother died when I was quite young, would often take me into the forest, you know, finding things that you’d know all about the forest. And she just seemed full of infinite wisdom. So a bit of her in that as well.

Rachael Herron: [00:32:57] I had a Mrs. Craig, my, my grade school librarian. She taught me how to crochet inside the library. It was wonderful.

Matt Haig: [00:33:03] Oh, very good. I love libraries as spaces that are more than just books. They’re important as a space, like town center libraries, they are spaces that don’t just like us as a consumer, but they like us, for us, you know, and we don’t have many of those spaces that are kind of like secular churches aren’t they.

Rachael Herron: [00:33:22] Yes

Matt Haig: [00:33:23] Aren’t just about money, and then we’re not a wallet to them. We are, you know, something beyond that. I think, one thing I think America does far better than Britain and Europe is value libraries. I think you, you really play, you know, our libraries are being decimated and underfunded and closing down and the last sort of areas that where we need to be more deprived areas. It’s very hard to find the library now. Whereas I felt like libraries certainly are still very much center of the culture of America and that’s something 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:55] the center of book culture, but they’re also turning into a, a social safety net center, as well as, as the social safety net is cut from other places, then we’re forcing these libraries to, our librarians must become social workers and mental health experts and, and all of this. And so I, 100% agree with you, but I wish we would also give some more money, always more money to libraries. Oh, I live in, you know, I mentioned in Oakland and our library system is amazing. And what I can do is I request the book I want, I’m usually the first one to request it. And that means they buy it in E-book and they send it to my Kindle and the author gets paid and I get to read it for free four days later, you know it’s, Oh, it’s the best ever. 

Matt Haig: [00:34:43] Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. Unlike certainly in our country, the debate around libraries was often says, well, the internet has made it irrelevant because we can access all this information and we can answer 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:52] What about the books? 

Matt Haig: [00:34:53] What about the books? What about that four dimensional space that you can go into and the fact that it’s, it’s the kind of thing that glues a community together. Isn’t it? You’ve got a library. You have hospitals, you have a church, but you have a library at the heart of it. And yeah. So, you know, we’re not quite in the state, America’s in with leadership, but our leadership. Yeah. But we’ve had, we’ve had over 10 years of a conservative government that have been not good for culture and communities at all. So, yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:23] I think if, if we weren’t, if we were not collapsing over here, we’d be spending a lot of time commiserating with you. But 

Matt Haig: [00:35:27] yeah, I know

Rachael Herron: [00:35:28] but I’ll find ways.

Matt Haig: [00:35:29] so American to be absolutely the best, even after being the worst. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:36] You know it is, it’s embarrassing. All of it. All of it isn’t fair.

Matt Haig: [00:35:38] I know.

Rachael Herron: [00:35:45] Thank you so, so, so very much for doing this with me. I really appreciated talking to you. I really loved reading the book so much so that I forgot it was your book. And I didn’t want to read this other guy’s book about libraries. Because it was yours. 

Matt Haig: [00:35:56] Thank you, Rachael. It was a joy.

Rachael Herron: [00:35:57] No need for any more library books. It was beautiful.

Matt Haig: [00:36:01] That was a joy. And I hope that hopefully in some post-COVID happier future, I’ll meet you in Oakland or San Francisco and we’ll have an event and that’d be good. 

Rachael Herron: [00:36:09] Absolutely. That would be wonderful. Okay. Thanks man, take care!

Matt Haig: [00:36:11] Cheers, Rachael, bye!

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.

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