KJ Dell’Antonia is the author of the viral New York Times essay Why I Didn’t Answer Your Email, the former editor of the Times’ Motherlode blog, the co-host of the #AmWriting podcast and the author of the book How to Be a Happier Parent. Her debut novel, The Chicken Sisters, is a timely, humorous exploration of the same themes she focuses on in her journalism: the importance of finding joy in our families, the challenge of figuring out what makes us happy and the need to value the people in front of us more than the ones in our phones and laptops, every single time.
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Transcript
Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.
[00:00:15] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #192 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. So thrilled that you’re here today. Today, we’re talking to the fantastic KJ Dell’Antonia. And she’s just one of those people that I fell in love with as soon as we were introduced, I’d already enjoyed one of her viral essays, which you probably also read too. And she talks about dissecting other people’s work to figure out how it works. Also, she’s just a bundle of joy and energy and it was a challenge, not to want to talk to her for hours. So, I know that you’re going to enjoy the interview that is coming up. [00:00:57] What is going on around here, in the biggest news of all, I’ve really been enjoying, cutting my flowers from my flower garden. And today actually I’m working on a Patreon essay about compost and about learning that I could compost those post it notes that I do all of my decisions about writing on and about, I’m just thinking a lot about the fact that right now, above me on my desk, there is a vase of flowers that I grew from scratch, and it feels almost as satisfying as writing a book, I swear. And I’m really loving that. I turned in my book, the last, the fourth revision to my editor on Monday, I guess that’s actually the biggest news. Turn that in. I spent all of, this was Saturday, Sunday, and some of Monday, reading the book on my wife’s iPad. And that was the first time I’ve used an iPad to read the book and it was so great. So revelatory, that I got an iPad, the cheap small one. But being able to look at the PDF, that I made it look like a book on the iPad and being able to use the pencil, to write all my comments and notes, it was astonishing. How many terrible sentences were still in the book that had gone through now three revisions? [00:02:20] And yes, this was the time where I was trying to make all the language the best it could be. This was the time but I still ran into my favorite sentence that I ran into was, she jumped, she jumped back, but not in time. And I write science fiction. I don’t worry time travel. That was just a bad sentence. So that took a couple of days and it was so, so, so, so much fun that it’s just, like I say all the time, that is my favorite place to be. However, I am looking forward to first drafting something soon. I have more vision to do on the collection of essays that I’m revising. But I’m itching. I’m kind of getting the itch. I need to be in a new book. So powering through a bunch of smaller projects that I need to get done and off and pay off, off of my desk, spending time in the garden. I’m feeling grateful that I don’t have Covid, that no one does and I hope that you do not also. Let’s see over in a business stuff. I just need to thank new patrons, Thomas J Langer and Josh Kylan and Patrick Martinez, just a bumper crock prop of men this time, and thank you guys. Josh and Thomas are at the mini coach level, so they get to use me as their mini coach. And Knitty, the online knitting magazine. I’m actually a patron of them. I just love Knitty. So if you’ve never been to Knitty.com, you should go there. Years and years of free knitting patterns, articles, stuff to do, stuff to learn. It’s fantastic. So thank you Knitty for supporting me. I appreciate it. [00:03:58] And what else, I think I’ve just been having a nice time thinking about what I love and doing what I love. I have been very much into reading every night, in my never-ending quest to get better sleep. I have really learned that if I don’t look at a screen two hours before I go to bed, it was an hour. Now it’s two hours, if I don’t look at a screen two hours before I go to bed and just read, boy do I sleep better. So I’ve just been blowing through books. And I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ll mentioned again, I only read books that I love. I was reading a book that everybody else loves, it actually I believe won a National Book Award last year, 2019 I think. And I got 75% of the way through it last week, thinking, ‘I will have to love it, everyone else loves it.’ And then at 76%, I went to ‘Screw this, this is much further than I usually get if I’m not loving something’. Usually I only get 20 pages and if I’m not loving something, I will quit. This one though, I was reading with a friend and she wanted to read it. So, no I quit. You don’t have to finish books. There are so many incredible books out there that want to be read that you want to read. Only read the books- Here’s my rule: only read the books that you think about watching TV, Netflix, the best series on TV that you’re super into right now, only read the book that will pull you away from that. Read the books that are so good, you don’t want to do the binging of television or whatever it is that you want to indulge in less. Read the book that pulls you off of Facebook, pulls you off of Twitter. There are millions of incredible books that we will never have time to read all of them. We should only be reading the books that we cannot put down, that we can’t wait to get back to. So I’ve been doing a lot of that and that really helps my life in all the ways. Plus as writers, we get to say very smugly to the people around us “Don’t, I’m sorry, don’t bug me. I’m, I’m doing work. I’m working here. Can’t you see I’m reading? This is my work, this is how we learn”, which is something that KJ and I talk about in the interview that will follow right now. I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did talking to her and also, in my ever hopes, I hope that you’re getting some work done. You’re getting some really, truly tragically, terrible words on the page that you would be embarrassed if anybody ever saw, because those are the words we all put on the page in a first draft, no matter how many books you’ve written, that is normal, you can fix it later. Be really proud of what you’re doing and come tell me about it somewhere. Go over to HowDoYouWrite.net or find me at rachaelherron.com, send me an email, tell me how you’re doing. I really love hearing from you. Okay my friends, we’ll talk soon. [00:06:50] Hey, is resistance keeping you from writing? Are you looking for an actual writing community in which you can make a calls and be held accountable for them? Join RachaelSaysWrite, like twice weekly, two hour writing session on zoom. You can bop in and out of the writing room as your schedule needs, but for just $39 a month, you can write up to 4 hours a week. With our wonderful little community, in which you’ll actually get to know your writing peers. We write from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM on Tuesdays and 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM on Thursdays and that’s US Pacific Standard Time. Go to RachaelHerron.com/Write to find out more.Rachael Herron: [00:07:31] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, KJ Dell’Antonia. Hello, KJ.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:07:37] Hello. I am so happy to be here. I listen to every episode. I already know my answers to all the questions, I hardly even need you.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:47] Funny sometimes you’ll notice, you’ll know that when people haven’t actually read the questions because I’ll stump them and I’m like ‘Dude, I sent you the questions.’
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:07:53] What? A craft tip. I don’t know.
Rachael Herron: [00:07:58] That’s the one that I have stumped people on before, but I won’t stump you.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:08:04] No you won’t, I’m ready. I’m totally ready. You know, so I do my own podcast and we had a guest recently. We had Susan Wiggs.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:10] Oh, I love her.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:08:12] Okay. So you have her on, you can just, you could go out for coffee. She was hysterical, she didn’t need us in any way she performed. She was a great gift and she had, or she was a great guest and she had this great thing that she’s, her craft tip would be that she finds her characters’ wish song, like in a Disney movie.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:34] That’s so cute.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:08:35] That’s like, isn’t it awesome! I know. I’m-
Rachael Herron: [00:08:37] That’s a great craft tip.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:08:39] Yeah, I think that’s brilliant. So there’s a bonus craft tip from Susan Wiggs, who totally, she just, we couldn’t, we didn’t even need to be there. She just.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:49] I love her. She’s the very first person who blurbed my first book,
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:08:53] Wow.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:54] 25 books ago, and it was a cold call. I emailed her because we were
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:08:57] That’s impressive.
Rachael Herron: [00:08:58] and I said, I don’t have a book out. Would you consider blurbing this? She read it. And she, she said she loved it and she gave me an amazing blurb. And I was like, ‘This woman is so big and so famous’ and so she didn’t need to do that. So for me, she will always be that person who is the first person to say yes.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:09:13] That’s really nice.
Rachael Herron: [00:09:15] But let’s talk about you. Let me give me your, your intro because you are the important person right now. KJ Dell’Antonia is the author of the viral New York Times essay, Why I Didn’t Answer Your Email, which I had read before we even met. The former editor of the Times’ Motherlode blog, the co-host of the #AmWriting podcast and the author of the book, How to Be a Happier Parent. Her debut novel, The Chicken Sisters is a timely, humorous exploration of the same themes she focuses on in her journalism: the importance of finding joy in our families, the challenge of figuring out what makes us happy and the need to value the people in front of us more than the ones in our phones and laptops, every single time. I find that so beautiful and
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:10:00] Thank you. I wrote it.
Rachael Herron: [00:10:02] I always have to remember that the people around me are more important than the people I’m making too. Right?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:10:08] Oh yes
Rachael Herron: [00:10:09] I tend to get pretty invested in my characters and not be able to leave my computer or be always… shows. People know when they’re not the focus.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:10:18] Yes, or when you’re just grumpy, because something is happening in your writing that has nothing, like there’s no reason in your world to be unhappy, but like your character, either a) your character is having a frustrating experience or b) your character is being super frustrating by like, not, whatever, yeah or your story is, yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:10:38] Or all of the above,
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:10:39] or all of the above, absolutely.
Rachael Herron: [00:10:39] Exactly, actually that’s how I have felt today. So that book, the “Chicken Sisters” is just coming out in December, is that right?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:10:44] December 1st.
Rachael Herron: [00:10:45] Oh, that’s so exciting!
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:10:48] That’s a great gift for your sister.
Rachael Herron: [00:10:51] I’d give it to both of my sisters. I have two. Okay, so let’s talk about you because you are one of those people who does everything and is everywhere and knows everybody, we know each other through the amazing Jenny Nash,
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:11:02] The amazing Jenny Nash.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:03] My goodness. She, that was such a great interview and she’s just so delightful and I knew that you were, as soon as we connected and I deep dove into your backlist and realized ‘Oh, I remember that essay that went viral.’ I loved that thing. But talk to me about your process, when and where and how do you get your writing done and please include like how that has changed nowadays.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:11:26] Oh my gosh. How that has changed nowadays. So, so I live in rural New Hampshire with four kids at home. One’s off to college next year and three dogs, and two cats and too many ponies and 18 full-size horses that I don’t have to take care of because somebody else lives here too and takes care of them.
Rachael Herron: [00:11:46] Wow!
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:11:47] Yeah, I know. So, so crazy. So what I typically, like my normal process, is that I get up, I, I exercise because, because I do, this is like a new thing and I’ve really beaten into my routine, I’m super proud of it.
Rachael Herron: [00:12:05] Oh, that’s so great!
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:12:06] So I get up and I work-out and then I deal with like my family kind of stuff, yeah. If, if I need to drive people to school, which I frequently do because there’s no bus from where we live because it’s rural, I, you know, I do that if I need to just sort of help people sort out their lives and get them, if then I do that.
Rachael Herron: [00:12:23] What time do you get up to, to get your workout in before you start doing all that stuff?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:12:27] 6, 6:15.
Rachael Herron: [00:12:29] Okay. Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:12:30] Yeah. And, so usually I am back and I mean, this isn’t a normal life. If normal life ever comes back usually by like 8:20, 8:30, I’m back and I’m, I’m ready and the first thing that I do, I don’t look at, I don’t look at my email. I don’t look at I don’t even really look at text. I’m going to kind of glance to see who’s texting me because that’s what, that’s what would be my mother or once my son’s at college, that would be him. Like that’s what would be something like that. But mostly, I just, I don’t really read them. I just glance at, because my phone is also my alarm clock. So, I come back and I still don’t look at my email and I really do go right in and usually
Rachael Herron: [00:13:09] That’s the key
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:13:10] Yeah. Yeah. So especially if I’m in mid-draft, like I know what I’m doing, I sit down and I, I work for, like I write for like, I’ve set a timer for 55 minute intervals.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:27] 55 is yours. 45 is mine.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:13:29] Yeah. So 55 is mine and I do two or three or maybe four, but that would be really hard. Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:13:38] I was doing five and six last week on a deadline and I had one 12-hour day, but I remember that like two or three, is so awesome. Like, you get so much done in two or three and you get diminishing returns at four or five or more than that. Yeah, that’s. So then you take a break, do you walk around? Do you?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:13:56] Yeah well, now at the 55 minute. Yeah. I usually get up and make a cup of coffee or it’s not, it’s not set for that. It’s really because I can’t focus for any longer than that.
Rachael Herron: [00:14:04] Yeah. Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:14:05] But, yeah I get up and get a cup of coffee. I’ll, I make some breakfast when I’m ready to eat. I let the dog out.
Rachael Herron: [00:14:11] And you were saying
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:14:12] I come back and I reset it, oh and when I said, after I said it, I take my little phone and I’m gonna just demonstrate, don’t worry, no phones will be harmed in this demonstration. I go like that.
Rachael Herron: [00:14:26] People who are not watching this, she threw it, away.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:14:29] Yeah. I just throw it.
Rachael Herron: [00:14:30] That’s a really good case.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:14:32] Yeah, well, no, I get it’s a carpeted, and it’s carpeted, like, and I kind of throw it gently, so I’ll toss it onto the sofa or over the coffee table onto the like, I try to be gentle with it, but it has to be, yeah, it has to be gone. It’s funny because I won’t flake off into email in my laptop mostly unless I’m having a really terrible time and all my notifications are off. If I’m having a terrible term, I’d turn off the wifi, but the phone, if it’s sitting here, I mean, I just find myself, I’m like, ‘wait, why do I have this in my hand?’ ‘How did that happen?’
Rachael Herron: [00:15:07] Yeah, and I would say that the majority of my life, it is within reach, you know, and we don’t think about that. I just loved just seeing you throw it. Everybody wished if you’re not watching on video, you should come to the video and watch it. She just threw it. That was like a huge light bulb went on in my brain because honestly, when I –
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:15:22] I can’t have it by me.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:23] And if I walk away from my phone, like often I’ll leave it in the kitchen, If I looked at it at lunch or whatever, and I don’t notice I don’t have it for three or four hours.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:15:29] Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:30] Because, I’m just doing my stuff, and then I go, where is my phone? But if it’s nearby, you’re checking it all the time.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:15:36] Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:15:37] That’s good. Okay. And you said before we got on the air that you don’t usually work at your desk, you’re working downstairs where people can come in and bother you.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:15:46] Yeah, now they can. So normally, you know, in normal times, They’re not at home and no one is at home, but now there are five other humans in my house. Actually, right now, there are nine other humans in my house because we have achieved the enormous coveted victory of having guests.
Rachael Herron: [00:16:05] Oh, your bubble has opened.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:16:07] Yeah. They took a test and they got in their car and they drove here and
Rachael Herron: [00:16:12] That’s wonderful.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:16:13] These are some of our very best family friends so I’m delighted that they are here.
Rachael Herron: [00:16:17] That must be so nice.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:16:18] Although the truth is that I thought they were coming tonight. And so yesterday at five, when they were like, ‘We’ll be here in half an hour!’ I was like ‘Oh, of course you will!’
Rachael Herron: [00:16:29] Like I’ll go fix a bed.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:16:30] I’ll go buy some food. Yes, that’s exactly, because in my mind, I was going to do all of that today. Like that’s I was gonna get things ready, and I was gonna go to the grocery store. I was gonna wash sheets and make children clean bathrooms and all those things. We did those things really, really quickly and the truth is that that’s what would have happened anyway. It would have gotten to like six o’clock and I would’ve been like,’ Oh my god, they’re gonna be here any minute!’
Rachael Herron: [00:16:54] And now it’s done. It’s taken care of. Oh, that’s wonderful. I’m jealous about having house guests. So must be really, really nice.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:16:59] I know, it’s so fun, it feels so human and they’re like our best friends and we can talk and, and, oh, it just, it feels almost normal. It’s wonderful.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:10] Oh, that’s so good, that’s so good. I’m so happy, happy to hear that you are having that. What is your, what is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:17:18] So my, among my biggest challenge, I think probably my biggest challenge in fiction is making my characters do the stupid thing. Like I really have a tendency to be like, But she’s a really smart person. She’d probably just go to the other human that she’s having trouble with and say, ‘Hey, I, I think we should talk this through.’ So, I have to like really set out for okay, like what would be the worst possible decision this person could make in this situation? We’re going to do that.
Rachael Herron: [00:17:49] And give her the real reason. Yes.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:17:52] Yeah. Oh yeah. Totally and why, but, but yeah, so making, making the bad things happen and then another bad thing, and then and making sure that they happen because my character is screwing up. Not just because the bad things are raining down, but because they are making bad choices for, in their minds excellent reasons.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:12] That was the hardest thing for me to learn for a number of books.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:18:15] It’s really hard.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:17] Yeah, yeah. Jenny, I think, has some kind of tool of like backwards, like because of this, this happened or something. I keep,
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:18:23] Yeah. She’s got this whole inside out.
Rachael Herron: [00:18:26] Yeah. The inside out
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:18:27] Like, you have to have, yes, you have to have a, because at the end of everyone, but even she would sometimes let you slide by with a you know, because there was a really bad thunderstorm and I’m like, and I’ll I get now I know to go back and be like, no, no, because my character left all the windows of their car open you know, the really bad thunderstorm because they were angry at their sister or whatever,
Rachael Herron: [00:18:49] Yes
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:18:50] It has to be all those things. So that to me is the hardest thing. And even like, I’m, so I just turned in a manuscript. So now I’m like, what’s next? You know, like I’m, I’m, trying to pull together and, and I’m trying to figure out, like, I kind of know who I’m going to write about, I kind of know what’s going to happen, I know what she wants, I know all these things, but what I don’t know is what does she do that like tips the rollercoaster. I can’t figure that out.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:17] Do you like this part while you’re in this exploration?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:19:20] I do, but I like even better the part where I know where I’m going, and I have maybe even pre-written a little bit, and I’m just gonna like dive in. I like, I really liked the best part where there’s going to be lots and lots of words.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:33] Yes, yes. The more words, the better. That’s-
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:19:36] Yes. Even if they’re terrible words, you know, they’ll probably have all the right letters in them and I can use it.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:43] That’s a great way to say it. What is the biggest joy that you have in writing?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:19:47] That part, that part.
Rachael Herron: [00:19:48] That part, the words?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:19:49] The, where you’ve sort of pre-written and you, you know what, like, you know what this scene is going to be, and yet it’s not boring because if it’s boring, you should just don’t write in and just like write two sentences and hopefully skip over it, and sometimes you can’t do that, but, yeah. So that part, that part where you’re like, I know where this is going, and it’s going to take a couple thousand words to get there, but I’ve got like these points that I’m going to hit during it, even in nonfiction. Same thing when I know where it’s going. It’s so, so much fun.
Rachael Herron: [00:20:18] You write yourself to where, know where you’re going or do you know it ahead of time?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:20:22] In nonfiction, in essays, I tend to write myself to it
Rachael Herron: [00:20:26] Yeah, me too.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:20:27] And then I have to go back and rewrite it. Usually from the beginning and frequently while throwing aside everything that I have written except, maybe the last paragraph. In fiction? No, because I will write 30,000 words, but just like, especially if my characters start talking about food, it could be pages before we come back. Yeah. So in fiction I have found that I really need, it- sometimes I still write my way to it. Like, sometimes it doesn’t go the way that I thought it would and I still have to, but, but I, it’s better if I at least have some and this, this manuscript that I just turned in, I didn’t know what was going to go disastrously wrong. I did, I did start writing without knowing what was going to go disastrously wrong. And I may have to do that again because I not only have I not figured out the tipping point of the roller coaster, but I haven’t figured out like the catastrophe at the end.
Rachael Herron: [00:21:21] Sometime I write whole books without knowing that I have to, I have to get there. I prefer to know everything. I think you and I have a really similar system where we write our ourselves to what we know in nonfiction, but we have to know a little bit more for fiction, but I, I often have no idea what the, what the dark moment catastrophe is going to be and I never know how they’re going to fix it because I figure if I already know, then it’s too easy, you know?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:21:42] Yeah. Well I turn this manuscript in and I just realized, and I just was thinking about it. And I’m like, you know, I don’t think they fixed it themselves enough. I think I gotta fix that. It’s okay. I mean, I just like it’s, it’s
Rachael Herron: [00:21:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Revisions will be coming.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:21:58] Yeah. Revisions are on their way, but I already know that that’s going to be like, you know, people sailed in and told her what she needed to hear and I need a little more of her. Yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:22:11] Oh, good. Good. I love, I love hearing that. Okay, so not Susan Wiggs’, what is your best craft tip that you could share with us?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:22:21] I like to- I like to dissect things.
Rachael Herron: [00:22:24] Ooh, tell me more.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:22:25] So, I will, for example, take a Catherine center book because those are beautifully formed.
Rachael Herron: [00:22:32] I have not read her.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:22:34] Catherine Center. Okay. So she’s got technique. Girls got game.
Rachael Herron: [00:22:38] Do you have a particular one you’d recommend.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:22:40] I, I think-
Rachael Herron: [00:22:44] I’ll just look around.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:22:45] Look around, like they’re here or whatever, but not the current one, but the one before, which I think was called what, no, I think the current one is ‘What You Wish For’ and the one before that, ‘Things You Save In A Fire’. That one.
Rachael Herron: [00:23:53] Oh, what a great title.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:22:55] Yeah. Yeah. So this, the first third of that book, like I’ve torn that apart to see like, why did I want to keep reading this so bad. Why did this work so well, like seriously to the, to the level of like, how many words were this you know, how many paragraphs were spent in this backstory and how many paragraphs were spent here?
Rachael Herron: [00:23:15] Super analytical.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:23:17] Yeah. Or I’ll take a book and be like, okay. I really felt like the mother was an important part of this book, how many times did the mother actually appear? And sometimes the answer is like, three.
Rachael Herron: [00:23:28] Yeah. Yeah
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:23:40] So, it just like that’s stuff informs what I’m doing. And I, with non-fiction it’s even, it’s even easier I mean, if I am, we’re reading the same book. I can see it in the background.
Rachael Herron: [00:23:49] Which book?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:23:50] I think that’s, is that the ‘Vanishing Half’? No?
Rachael Herron: [00:23:53] No. that’s probably mine. That’s, that’s Stolen Things.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:23:56] Yeah sorry I was distracted. I forgot where I was.
Rachael Herron: [00:24:01] Oh, dissecting.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:24:02] I was dissecting non-fiction. It’s even better for nonfiction. So like, if I want, I don’t do this as much anymore, but when I was really getting started as a freelancer, if I wanted to pitch a piece to a particular magazine, I would go and I would look at okay well, how did their pieces start? And how many people are getting interviewed and how long are then how many? And, and really make sure that what I pitched them fit what it was, or if I wanted to write, like, even now, if I wanted to write an, a persuasive essay for a particular newspaper about, I don’t know, maybe like, maybe I want to write it about how, you know, you shouldn’t eat factory farmed meat. So I might go and find a persuasive essay that they had published that was about how, you know, vegetables are like. But anyway, I would, and I would tear that up and figure out how many words and, and where the like, where do they put the, you know, where do they put the thing that says why they’re writing it? Where do they put what they said with the part that, where they say, why you should care that they’re writing it in particular? Like where is all that stuff? I don’t have to do that as much anymore because I’ve done so many essays now. But when I was getting started, I did that all the time. So I love to just tear stuff up and really look at the nitty gritty of what makes it work.
Rachael Herron: [00:25:24] I love that, and I wish I did that more. I have done it a lot in non-fiction, like you said, less so in fiction, just because a lot of times fiction seems so, so big and broad and like, how did they do this? But I just started a collection of essays last night called ‘Tomboy Land’. It was it’s from one of the Amazon imprints and it was one of their, you know, Kindle.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:25:46] Sure
Rachael Herron: [00:25:47] Kindle first one, so I grabbed it and it’s so beautiful. And I’m actually doing that. Cause her essays are really long with a lot of multiple parts. She’s definitely like an acolyte at the Rebecca Solnet alter. Right. She’s-
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:25:58] And I just learned to do that.
Rachael Herron: [00:26:01] Me too.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:26:02] I should grab that because I’ve been trying to learn to make my essays less like, here’s 800 words for the New York Times. Here’s 800 words for the questions,
Rachael Herron: [00:26:10] Yes
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:26:11] I love that I can throw those around like that. Right. You know, what, what, what would I do if I was going to write for like, I don’t know or
Rachael Herron: [00:26:21] More forum or yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:26:22] Yeah. More forum or there’s a Southern one that I really love. What would I, you know, what would, what would that look like?
Rachael Herron: [00:26:27] And it’s so interesting cause she writes these and then you’re like, I don’t think she’s even on her point anymore. And then she brings it back around. So yeah, I’m, I, I’m dissecting that the way that you’re saying.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:26:38] Okay. Yeah. I should-
Rachael Herron: [00:26:39] So good. More people should do this. That’s such a good, such a great tip. What, I have no idea how you’re gonna answer this. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:26:49] Oh, I was just thinking about this and then I forget what I thought of. What did I think of? What thing in my life affects my writing in a surprising way? I think the best thing I thought of was almost that the things that don’t affect it in the way that I thought I would.
Rachael Herron: [00:27:06] Yes. Take us there.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:27:07] Like, because I was already in the book for when Covid hit,
Rachael Herron: [00:27:12] Yeah
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:27:13] I was able to keep going. It didn’t matter. Like, because, I think because I’ve been a professional, you know, I’ve been making my living at this for 10 years and I did a lot of it on it daily, multiple deadlines schedule. If I know what I’m going to write, the, you know, things can fall down around me and I can still, if I have, it has to get done, it’s going to get done. So it’s almost more, I wrote and I the ‘Chicken Sisters’, I finished it during breast cancer treatment. Same thing. I knew what I was doing. And it was, I mean, obviously I was okay.
Rachael Herron: [00:27:46] Yeah
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:27:47] And then I was going to be okay and I didn’t even have to have chemo and I still have my hair and it was all great. Except that it wasn’t great,
Rachael Herron: [00:27:53] But it wasn’t great. Yeah
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:27:54] It didn’t, I guess I’m surprised by how little those things do throw me off my game, whereas let’s see what does throw me off my game.
Rachael Herron: [00:28:05] Yeah. What does throw you off?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:28:06] Yeah, a little stupid stuff like the, those days where it’s just like, somebody asks you to do this and somebody asks you to do it and you get thrown off at the very beginning. And then right when you’re going to sit there, if I don’t start, if I don’t do the writing part first, I probably won’t do it.
Rachael Herron: [00:28:24] Me too. We’re so alike in this. I can’t recover from that. I can’t then at noon go, okay, let’s start my write- my 8:00 AM writing now I just, done.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:28:34] Yeah. Maybe if I’m on a terrible deadline
Rachael Herron: [00:28:36] Yes. Yes
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:28:37] And especially if I knew, if I like planned for it. If I knew that I had, you know, I was like, had to take your kid to the dentist. And so I’ve mentally gone at 11, then I can start, then I can probably pull it off. But if it, if it just sort of doesn’t happen and mostly it just doesn’t happen.
Rachael Herron: [00:28:54] Yeah. I want to, this is so not on the topic at all, but I want. Because you and I both have these aura rings now that track our sleep and our movement, and I love them. I’d love these things. So what, what exercise are you doing in the morning? Cause I’ve got to get better at doing exercise in the morning.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:29:11] Oh, I get up and I have a weightlifting machine kind of thing that my husband got this is another lunatic-
Rachael Herron: [00:29:15] I was just thinking about getting into weightlifting.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:29:18] Okay. So this is another lunatic purchase of tech variety, which he actually bought before Covid, but it has been great for Covid. So it’s this thing it’s called Tonal, T O N A L. And it’s like, I don’t know if you’ve seen the mirror on Instagram,
Rachael Herron: [00:29:31] No
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:29:32] but it kind of looks like that. So it’s like, it’s like, it’s like a, 18 inch by 4-foot thing that goes on the wall and it’s like, so like six inches deep and somehow through the power of magnets and technology, it can make things weigh a hundred pounds for each arm.
Rachael Herron: [00:29:50] No kidding.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:29:51] Yeah. So, and then it has like little people, there’s little people in it Rachael, it has
Rachael Herron: [00:29:50] I bet there’s more people
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:29:51] or created by these, you know, so you play, you say, I want to gain, I want to build muscle and it’ll give you a 4-week program and, and, and it can tell, like if you’re doing bicep curls and you’re here and you’re like, I can’t do this anymore, it’ll drop the weight
Rachael Herron: [00:30:15] No way
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:30:16] or it’ll add to the way I want to.
Rachael Herron: [00:30:17] Do you love it? I want that.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:30:18] I do. I do love this thing. I have no idea how much it costs. Cause I didn’t did not have anything to do with the purchasing of it. That was my husband. Jim has his, his, yeah.
Rachael Herron: [00:30:31] So you do that in the morning. Okay.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:30:33] So yeah, so I get up and I do that or I run, I run a mile. It’s not pretty much. That’s as far as I want to run, I like to run. I really hate running, but I can run a mile. So I run, yeah, every other day I run a mile or I do the total and some days I do both because my stupid ring has not accepted that I did enough.
Rachael Herron: [00:30:53] Stupid ring. I was on deadline this week and the ring just kept telling me, you know, it sounds very politic, politically like, is it time to stretch your legs a bit? I’m like, no, screw up. I cannot get up.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:31:05] Or you get on a car. Stop it. Yeah. Yeah. I can’t figure out why it wants me to do what it wants me to do, but I’m willing to do it.
Rachael Herron: [00:31:03] I like it when it congratulates me that I did it. So nice. Okay. So tell us what the best book is that you’ve read recently. And why did you love it.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:31:21] Oh man, I’m torn between two.
Rachael Herron: [00:31:24] Ooh, tell us both.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:31:25] Alright. So I just read the ‘Vanishing Half’, which is what I thought was in the background there. Brit is the person’s first name and I don’t remember what her last name is.
Rachael Herron: [00:31:35] Okay
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:31:36] But it is the story of two twin sisters, identical twins. They start off in 1950s, Louisiana. They run away from home for various and sundry, not particularly just, they just do, they’re black girls, but they’re very light skinned and one decides to pass. So she… boom. She’s gone. She’s the vanished half, like, cause she, she doesn’t keep in touch with anyone, and this has been the story of, so it go at a stretch. It’s not in the present today, but into like 1970s. 1980s and sort of follows them both and, and their children and their mother and it’s-
Rachael Herron: [00:32:09] That sounds fascinating.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:32:10] Really, really, really good. Like it’s a just
Rachael Herron: [00:32:15] Going to the top of my TBR file.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:32:18] Yeah. So it’s worth the hard back price because it ended as a high
Rachael Herron: [00:32:21] That is good to know.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:32:22] Yeah. It’s worth it. So that was, I loved that. And the other one was Rodhem, Rodham? I don’t know you know,
Rachael Herron: [00:32:21] Oh, Hillary. Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:32:22] Curtis Sittenfeld’s exploration of what if Hillary didn’t read Bill or didn’t marry Bill. It’s so good.
Rachael Herron: [00:32:37] I didn’t know what she was writing about. Okay.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:32:41] It’s such hutzpah and I mean, she went there. There are sex scenes. Like she did not pull any punches. She’s like in, I’m in Hillary’s head. And I am going to do this thing and I read the first third, I almost felt like, I was like, I think I would like this better if it was all fiction. Like if it weren’t, I was very dubious cause I kind of kept going well, did that really happen?
Rachael Herron: [00:33:04] Yeah. Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:33:05] How about that? I didn’t go look cause I didn’t want to. And I, so I threw it out there on, on Instagram and was like, okay, people. Should I keep, I just get, keep getting really distracted by the truth. The truth is very distracting and everyone was like, no, no, no, keep going, keep going. And they were so totally right. Cause the minute she like doesn’t marry bill, the whole thing takes off and it’s just this amazing alternative, entertaining fiction that’ll make you feel better about life, except that it didn’t really in a book West wing episode in a book. Yeah, and it is super fun and I really, I really enjoyed it. And also I’m just so impressed because I mean, balls out move.
Rachael Herron: [00:33:46] Yes. Yeah. And also balls that move for the publisher.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:33:49] Yes. Yeah. I think that if, if a man had written this and it were called McCain, it would be like winning the Pulitzer and things like that. It’s not really that good, but because it’s a woman, it’s about a woman, it’s you know.
Rachael Herron: [00:34:01] Yeah. By a woman. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Both of these have just shut up. And I have to say that you are just as delightful as I thought you would be
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:34:10] And you are too.
Rachael Herron: [00:34:11] I was so afraid to talk to you. Okay, so, tell us now about you, where we can find you what the, the latest book is we should get from you, or do you have a mailing list so that they can tell you can tell them when the ‘Chicken Sisters’ comes out?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:34:25] I do. I would love it if people got on my mailing list and the way to do that is actually to go to follow kj.com, where you will find a little site.
Rachael Herron: [00:34:32] Good.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:34:33] Yeah. And it’s actually took you to buy a nice URL like that. And then you just point it to your signup page that you
Rachael Herron: [00:34:34] Yeah, yeah. That’s a good point.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:34:35] You don’t, you don’t have to make anything, you just buy the URL. So, yeah. Follow kj.com. My friend and co-host Serena Bowen says I absolutely one half a hundred percent have to change the image on that page, but I refuse to, because I think it’s really funny. I’ll let you look at it.
Rachael Herron: [00:34:49] Can’t wait to look at it.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:34:52] So that’s a great way to get on my list and yeah, I send like a, an essay, like kind of like an essay, a riff on creative life, and some pictures of my farm animals. Every, it was theoretically it’s every week, but it’s for like couple of weeks when I do, it’ll probably start to be a, probably be every week until my book comes out in the middle, like off again. And the other great place to find me is Instagram. I am @kjda
Rachael Herron: [00:35:18] KJDA. Great. And also tell us a little bit about this writing podcast of yours. Because want to hear about it.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:35:25] So, #Mwriting we’re at episode 253. Yes, it is hosted by myself, Jessica Lahey, who’s a non-best-selling non-fiction author of a book called ‘The Gift Of Failure’ and our third cohost is Serena Bowen. She’s got 30 odd romances, USA Today Bestsellers. Every time she says 30 odd, I’m like, Oh, that’s such a softball and I hit that out of the park. But, and we alternate between the three of us talking craft, talking about why, how we’re working and talking about why we can’t work or we just recorded an episode busting, busting writer myths. And then we do interviews, which we don’t do all three of us because that would be insane, but we really scored some amazing, we interviewed David Sedaris.
Rachael Herron: [00:36:10] Oh my Lord!
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:36:11] He gave the flat out worst writing advice I have ever, ever heard. So I got to call him out on that night. That’s my claim to fame now.
Rachael Herron: [00:36:19] Do you want to tell us what it is?
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:36:21] Yes, he was. We said, we always liked to have people tell us how they got started. Even if it’s probably not super relevant to our readers are listening, I would say readers or listeners. And he said, well, you know, people knew I was writing little things, but I didn’t make a big deal of it. You should never ask anyone to look at your work. Don’t ask anyone for anything. I was like, Oh no, no way, that is so not how you do it. Really I can’t even just, even though you’re David Sedaris, I can’t let that stand. He was like, yeah, I think Ira Glass had me at a party and he had asked me to read my thing and I’m like, That’s great.
Rachael Herron: [00:37:00] You are not typical. David Sedaris. You are not typical.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:37:03] That is not the advice we are gonna let stand for our listeners. You must ask people for what you want.
Rachael Herron: [00:37:08] I would be nowhere if I couldn’t do that. Literally nowhere I would have had, I would’ve had no career.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:37:14] I’m just gonna sit here and wait for people to find the right New York, New Yorker called, you know, they haven’t actually called me yet and I been like, yeah, we’ve been out there. So anyway,
Rachael Herron: [00:37:25] I can’t wait to listen to that interview too.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:37:26] And we’ve had Jennifer Weiner, Celeste Headlee,
Rachael Herron: [00:37:30] Oh wow
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:37:31] Richard Russo, Alan Alda. But honestly the, the good people, like the best episodes, are the ones where you’re like, well, I’ve never heard that person because that person is, you know, busting their butt freelancing or that person’s got a debut novel that just came out and they’re going to talk about how they got that novel, you know, out there.
Rachael Herron: [00:37:53] So there’s something to be
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:37:54] I love the famous guests, they’re, they’re, they give us a lot of street cred, but really the best episodes are the ones where you’re like, I don’t, I don’t know, but it sounds like a good topic.
Rachael Herron: [00:37:58] That’s exactly right, because I think the rest of us who are really busting our ass to put food on the table and making the money, we’re the ones who still have to think really hard about the craft. I can imagine that if I had millions in the bank from writing, I might not think too hard about the craft anymore. I think I would, but
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:38:13] Or even if i just,
Rachael Herron: [00:38:15] I think I would, but
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:38:16] At that point, you were like, yes. But even if I was, so I just read Jennifer Weiner’s latest book, which is ‘Big Summer’.
Rachael Herron: [00:38:21] I haven’t read it yet.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:38:22] It’s really, really good. It’s really entertaining. But so I didn’t do anything more than look at the, like the first line of the flap copy is like, you know, a girl, over- overweight girl goes to be bridesmaid at her famous rich college or high school friends’ wedding on Cape Cod and things happen. And I was like, okay sold.
Rachael Herron: [00:38:43] Sign me up. Yes.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:38:48] for Weiner. That’s fine. I’m, I’m in for all of those things, it’s going to have food. It’s going to have, it’s gotta be funny. And you look at the camera and it’s like, women’s commercial fiction, right? Okay. It’s a mystery.
Rachael Herron: [00:38:57] What
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:38:58] It’s a total flat out 100% all in genre mystery, right down to amateur sleuths with a Blackboard listening clues. But because she’s Jennifer Weiner, Wiener, I think she can do that. And I loved it. I mean, I loved every single bite of it, but it’s, and I got to the part where like the, and if I had read all of the flap copy, I probably would have pulled in that the something awful might be like,
Rachael Herron: [00:39:23] That is fascinating though.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:39:25] And it is not being marketed. You know, this is being marketed as straight up because she’s Jennifer Weiner
Rachael Herron: [00:39:31] And then they have to market her to her fans and they will all buy it and they’ll be like oh, this is fun!
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:39:39] No, I was not one bit disappointed by the discovery that I was going to be solving a murder with the, the, the chicken. It was all good. It was all good. I was totally there for it, but I did just keep boggling because it’s like, man, man, she can just do the things, right?
Rachael Herron: [00:39:55] I love her. I love her.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:39:56] I do too.
Rachael Herron: [00:39:57] Okay. Well thank you so, so much for this interview.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:40:00] You’re welcome this was so much fun.
Rachael Herron: [00:40:02] You are a delight and it will be out very soon as will your book be in a few months. So everybody goes, sign up, follow kj.com, if you want to be on that list. All right, my friend, we’ll talk soon and thank you so much.
KJ Dell’Antonia: [00:40:12] Thank you. Bye.
Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/
Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.
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