Archives for October 2020

Today in this mini-episode, Rachael talks about whether it’s a good idea to write outside your race, as well as what to do when you’re bored stiff by your own book. And what about virtual retreats? 

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

Refs cited:

https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/pence-dhs-officer-death-rnc-speech

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/27/us/jacob-blake-wisconsin-thursday/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/27/us/kenosha-wisconsin-shooting-suspect/index.html

Transcript

Rachael Herron: Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:15] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #197 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. Thrilled that you’re here, it is a mini bonus episode today although it might not be so mini cause I got some things to say and I’ve got a bunch of questions to answer. So stick around. What is going on around here? Big news you may have already heard, but J Thorn and I have stopped doing The Writer’s Well. For a many really good reasons but if you are a fan of the show, don’t worry, mom and dad are not divorcing. We are still together, just not doing the show anymore. We love each other just as much, but we’re both going kind of new directions in our careers, which you all will hear about as we move forward and we needed to cut back on some things. And this was a thing that we immediately agreed, needed to go. Even though it breaks our heart. So, that show The Writer’s Well was awesome. If you’ve never listened to it, start at the beginning, there’s 190 episodes and basically we talk each other through the process of becoming full time writers.

[00:01:28] I had only been one for a few months when we started the show and he became one the next year, and we’ve been talking to each other for the last four years and it’s been wonderful. And I miss him already. I missed the listeners already, but it gives me more time to do the things that are important to me right now. So that was a big thing that happened this week. And what else, I am about to finish that last revision of Hush Little Baby before copy edits. And I always say it, but I’m always discovering again that, this is the sweetest spot, all the words that are in the right place, they’re going to stay and I’m just massaging them and making them better and fixing a little bit of plot stuff, but, and a little bit of character stuff, but very minor so it’s really, really enjoyable and fun. And I should have that done tomorrow. So that’s exciting. And what other news? I also got a new computer because my old six-year-old MacBook air finally gave up the ghost. And I have to say I’ve got a new Mac book pro loving it, except that in order to plug in anything that is USB, you must use a USBC hub, and the only way to keep that from disconnecting the wireless is to wrap the hub in tinfoil. So my brand new, very expensive computer is sitting on my desk with a hub that is wrapped in tinfoil. And people I think that is janky. Come on, Mac. Get it together. However, I love everything else about it. And perhaps my computer won’t crash all the time, including when I am making podcasts and videos and being on zoom, it’s pretty important.

[00:03:04] So that is fun. A shout out again to YNAB. YouNeedABudget Y-N-A-B.com. They are the ones who taught me how to use money at a very late age and allow me to do things like put money away every month for the new computer. So even though this was an expensive computer, I just moved the money over from where I had it in a special savings account for our next computer in our family and paid it off in full. And that gives me a lot of pleasure and a lot of pride. I just, honestly, we put it on the Apple card in order to get like the money back, but I just paid it off and it felt so good. It felt so good to be able to do that. So if you’ve, if you struggle with money, if you struggle with debt, YNAB.com got us out of $125,000 worth of debt.

[00:03:53] So it was no small thing when I learned how to use money. Long after I should have knowing how to use money. So yes, gonna answer some question, but first of all, let’s talk politics just for a minute. You listeners are so wonderful. I got some pushback emails and comments from the last show in which I kind of castigated Trump. And what I love is that many of us all agree that 98% of us want the same things. Even if we are on different sides of the political spectrum, we want to be happy. We want to be free. We want the people who are not treated fairly and equally now. To be treated fairly and equally, we all want that. We want our families to be safe. We all want to be loved. And I love that kind of reaching across the aisle. We’re humans. That’s what we want. Even if we’re using different words and different rhetoric. However, I would like to talk just a little bit about some stuff that has been happening and how I feel about it. It’s been another emotional week and first of all, real quickly, COVID deaths in the United States of America have reached 180,000. If Trump and his group had put together the correct response, according to the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, as well as many other research reports and other countries reporting we could have had 90% fewer deaths and 90%, fewer contractions of the disease.

[00:05:38] That means that 18,000 people would have died, not 180,000 people who have died because we did a bad job. Everybody else. In the world, most countries have a lockdown COVID, they’ve eradicated it and they are now back to business. They’re doing sports and going to schools and going to libraries safely, without fear. We screwed that up. So royally, I’ll put the link to the research in the show notes. HowDoYouWrite.net But I can’t do the math real quick. 162,000 people would have been saved had we acted earlier just like everybody else in the world has, this is why we can’t leave our country. We are not allowed to go places because America is too dangerous. No one will let us in right now. And that drives me in cra- that drives me insane. Just absolutely crazy. The people who are behind Trump, many of the people who vote for Trump, they are, many of them are pro-life. This however is anti-life and there is no way that there’s any possible way to excuse- sorry about that, the death of 162,000 Americans who didn’t have to die. 18,000 of them probably would have. But 162,000 who didn’t and those numbers are still going up. Taking a deep breath. Another thing that has happened last night was the Republic, the national convention. It’s this week, it’s been really fun and amusing to watch on Twitter.

[00:07:12] However, Mike Pence said that a federal officer was shot and killed during the riots in Oakland, California. That is absolutely true. But he failed to mention that the person who killed the federal officer was a right wing extremist member of the Boogaloo movement, Steven Carrillo. He’s a 32-year-old air force Sergeant who came into town in order to perform this killing during the BLM protests. He is a white wing extremist and Mike Pence, absolutely deceived people when he said, when he tried to cast it off of the riots had killed his officer. No, Steven Carrillo did. He is now in jail for it. The fact is, is that right wing extremists have killed 329 people in this country. And Antifa, antifascist. Like I am, I am a guest fascism have killed zero. Absolutely not one. Right wing extremist 329. Antifa, none. BLM movement, none. This week, Jacob Blake was shot seven or eight times. They’re not quite sure yet in the back by a police officer. Look, I worked for the, the police department for a long time. Cops are trained not to kill anyone unless a life is being threatened. They’re trained not to kill anyone unless a life is being threatened. It doesn’t matter what’s on their record. It doesn’t matter what’s in their car. It doesn’t matter unless they have a weapon in their hand and could kill someone. They shot him in the back as he opened the car door where his three children were inside. Thank God that Jacob Blake is alive. He’s going to be paralyzed if he makes it, I hope that he does so he can sue and own Kenosha. He absolutely deserves that. 

[00:09:16] The next night during the protests, the town Kenosha was filled by right wing militia who wanted to help out the police. They actually asked the chief of police to deputize them, the chief refused. However, 17-year-old, white boy, Kyle Rittenhouse drove 30 miles into Kenosha with his long gun shot, three of the protestors killing two of them, and then walked out past the officers while people screamed at the officers that that kid had just killed people. He went home, he was not stopped by the officers. He went home, and slept. He went home and slept and then was arrested the next day. He, he was in the front row at a Trump rally in Des Moines. Very, very front row. He’s very blue lives matter. He’s very pro-gun. Blue lives matter is not a thing people. You’re not born a cop. You can’t, you, when you take off your cop uniform, you don’t, you’re, you can’t be identified as a cop. Although that could be argued. I can usually pick a cop out from a long way, even when they’re not in a uniform. It’s about the voice, but they’re not born that way. Black lives cannot take off their skin. They are in danger all the time when they are walking around this country because systemic racism has been embedded into every single facet of our society.

[00:10:50] And it’s really, really exciting right now, as we are finally becoming a country that is talking about this, where white people are talking to white people and calling them in their bullshit and I really appreciate that we can have this dialogue that you and I can talk about this in a reasonable manner. And li- listen, you know this about me already though. I am not interested in talking about it in unreasonable manner. I like to deal with facts, things that are true. And all of this stuff I know is hard to talk about. It’s hard to hear. So I thank you for listening and for thinking about this stuff and for whatever you are doing to try to help anti-racism to try to move two-word racial justice in this country. It is not something that I can do. It’s not something that you can do by yourself. It’s something that we all have to do together, which is why I talk about it on the show. And honestly, if it offends you that much, you shouldn’t listen to this show. So peace be with you. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass, but the majority of you, like I said, 98% of you are good.

[00:12:09] And you know, that the stuff that is happening is wrong. And with that, I will just say, thank you for whatever you are doing. Not just tweeting or Facebooking, but actually, what are you doing? What are you doing to affect change? Just ask yourself that. Please feel free to let me know what you are doing to affect change. I would love, love to see that. I’ve been more on Twitter lately. Please feel free to hit me up there because it’s an easy way to respond back. And I’m RachaelHerron there. So politics to the side. Now let’s move into some writing questions. I told you, this was not going to be a mini episode, even though that’s well, we’re calling it.

[00:12:50] Okay. So here’s a great question from Thomas who always has good questions. He says, my question is, “Do you have any coping strategies to share regarding that phase in revision when you feel like you just can’t go on anymore? When you’re so sick and tired of the story that you just want to move on and leave the work unfinished. I’m about two thirds through, with the second draft in my first book and I’m finding myself exhausted at times. Taking a break is really not an option for me because when I set my mind on something, I’m so stubborn that I just have to push through somehow.” Oh, I was not going to tell you to take a break. Some people, for some people that can work. For me, I’m more like you Thomas, I cannot take a break when I’m trying to push through something. I am a pusher, I’m a mover. I like to get my shoulders up against the door and all of my weight behind it to push that door open. I am completely where you are during every single revision of every book and during the first draft. Usually about two-thirds of the way through, I lose all hope and all heart and especially when you’re in that second draft, it is the hardest draft to write. This will be the most that you struggle with your book. Usually there are exceptions, but this will usually be the biggest revision out of many. And I call that the Hoot, that you’re right in the middle of the who cares draft. Cause nobody cares. Nobody outside of your brain is waiting for this book, even though a friend or a spouse might say, can’t wait to read your book. Nobody’s waiting for it. Nobody’s lying in bed right now thinking, “Oh boy, I can’t wait to read Thomas’s book.

[00:14:27] Nobody cares, including ourselves. We lose the heat and the spark of the idea, and it happens to everyone. So when it happens to all of you who are listening, be pleased, that means you’re a working writer and you’re in exactly the right spot. What I do about that is, I’d like to have some kind of touchstone image in mind, it could be a scene in the book. It could be the kernel of the idea that got you to want to write this book. Something that can still excite you, when you think about it. It could be a phrase, a quote. It could be a line from the book itself. It could be a line from music, whatever inspired you to write this book, write that down. If you can’t remember, which is usually my case, I flipped through the book until I find something that excites me. And I write that down because I can look back at that and say, this is why I’m writing it. What is your reason for writing this book? What change do you want to make on the world with this book? Write that down and get excited about it. The other thing that I do is I look forward in my, I usually have a sentence outline. So I know all the scenes that are coming up and I will, if I hate the scene I’m in, I’ll jump forward to the scene that I’m most excited to write next. So I don’t really go out of order and I never go backwards. But I sometimes jump forward if I’m just not feeling what I’m doing. And unfortunately, a lot of times when you do that, you realize later you didn’t need that scene you were actually stuck in that you were working in. But don’t tell yourself that now. Because your- the forefront of your brain will say, no, of course I need that chapter.

[00:16:15] That is part of my book. It’s part of my thesis, it’s part of where I’m going with this. So believe that for now and just move forward to the next thing that you’re excited to do. The other thing is just butt and chair time. And you know that Thomas when you sit down and you open up the damn document and you look at the damn file again, and you say, okay, I’m here for 45 minutes or an hour and a half, or whatever it is you’ve got that day and I’m just gonna work and you just keep putting one foot in front of the other. The problem with the who-cares-draft-feeling is it can last for a while. I usually want to get out of it in a couple of days. And honestly it usually takes me a couple of weeks, maybe up to a month to get out of? And that is just sitting in the chair every day, kind of dreading what I’m doing, disliking what I’m doing and every once in a while catching something that is really beautiful and feeling okay, maybe there’s something in this book, but I’m not exaggerating when I say that I believe that the book I’m writing is a very bad idea and I should never have spent this time on it and I should probably throw it out. It’s not an exaggeration. That is how I feel and that is how a lot of writers feel when they are in the position you are in. So just remember, that you are doing it right and keep moving forward. Keep moving forward, it’s, it’s like the sun going behind the clouds. You know, when we talk about it in meditation there, the sun is still up there somewhere. It just takes a while for those clouds to move out of the way. And the only way to move those clouds is to keep doing the work. So that’s a terrible, mixed metaphor, but you know what I mean? Thank you, Thomas. You always get the best questions.

[00:17:52] Maggie, also an excellent question asker. Hello Maggie. She says, “You have mentioned a few times that you keep getting edits that your thrillers are emotional more than stabby, and we know you write gorgeous women’s fiction.” Thank you. “So what prompted the move to thriller and what keeps you wanting to write in it?” So I love reading deep, dark women’s fiction that is about family drama, family trauma that needs to be fixed. I love writing it and I love reading it because I am good at character work. I am good at knowing how people relate to each other and how badly wrong that can go. However, I’m one of those people that in difficult times, I like to read books in which the people are having a harder time than I am. Many people during difficult times, like we’re all going through right now. Many people reach for lighter, happier, softer books and I do that sometimes. I know I told all of you about the house, The House in the Cerulean Sea, which was just one of the lightest, most delightful books I’ve read in years.

[00:18:58] And that just cheered me up. But other times I like to know that this woman is going through terror, trouble, stalking, whatever it is. And my heart beats faster and I’m lying in bed reading, and I know she’s going to be okay because I’m reading this book. I can think of one exception of a thriller where that wasn’t true and I’m still mad about it. But I won’t say it cause I don’t want to spoil anything. But, but if you read it, you know which one I’m talking about. And I like, so thrillers for me, kind of give that happily ever after, that a lot of people get from reading romance. Thriller gives me, usually the feeling that everything is gonna be okay. Tana French, no spoilers. Tana French has done a couple of books in which it doesn’t end up okay. But somehow she manages to meet and surpass reader expectations. So that can be done too, but that’s why I write it because I love it so much. I would say the majority of the books I read are thrillers followed by memoir, followed by a women’s fictions and nonfiction. And I do read quite a bit of nonfiction too. So, yeah, I write all those things because I love all of those things. Thanks. That’s a good question. And then Maggie says, “Authors rave about your retreats, Europe and local. Do you see a place or value in virtual retreats with the new normal? If so, what core elements of your- in person retreats would be essential to retain in a virtual format?” I love this question Maggie, because I am putting together, as soon as I get this deadline done and another deadline, I’m putting together a virtual retreat. So, I will keep all of you posted, but I have been to a couple of virtual retreats, and went in highly skeptical. Thinking I’m at my house, I’m on zoom. This was actually pre-pandemic even. 

[00:20:54] How can this be a retreat? And it depends on how the retreat leader structures it, basically when you’re doing a virtual retreat, the retreat leader should put a very clear box around the time in which you are inside that retreat. So there needs to, you need everyone who is attending, needs help delineating that space for themselves so that it isn’t a normal day. It’s not a work day. It’s not a day where the kids are swinging from your arms. It is a day that you need to be supported, to be available for the retreat, for the other participants to do the work. And I honestly think it can be just as good as an in-person retreat. And maybe even better because you get to sleep in your own bed at night and I have such sleep issues. I love doing the retreats but I never sleep on them, honestly, because of those sleep issues. So I love going to bed in my own bed. I think I’m gonna do a one-day retreat to start and if that goes well, I might branch it out to a two or a three-day retreat, but that would probably just be in the mornings. Because two or three days of sitting in front of zoom, doing things that would be too much for anyone, but a one-day retreat would kind of, it’s going to be kind of all day with a couple of big breaks in it. So if that is interesting to you, make sure that you are on my email newsletter list for writers, which you can subscribe to at RachaelHerron.com/Write  

[00:22:22] I swear to you Maggie doesn’t even know that I was planning on doing virtual retreats, I don’t think so. Thanks for asking that, Maggie. Also Maggie, you know me really well. If there’s something that I need to put into my retreat that you want to make sure I don’t leave out, let me know. Speaking of the retreats though, I cannot foresee a time where I’m going to feel completely comfortable leading an out of country retreat. Again, I am still out $20,000 from the hotel in Barcelona from March. They, they tell me every single month that they are, they are refunding the money this month and I still don’t have it. So you know, really gun shy that money belongs to my retreatants and I haven’t been able to give back to them. And that is essential for my mental health. So it’s gonna happen. I will get that money. But I am once bitten, twice shy. I am really nervous about leading another retreat in these days, besides, who knows when we’re going to get to leave the country. So until then, virtual retreats, I think are going to be really fun and awesome and useful. And that goes for anybody. Anybody can write to me, tweet at me, and tell me what you would like to see in a virtual retreat. That’s going to be fun to put together. So thank you, Maggie. 

[00:23:40] And another question, last question from Anita, and this is a fantastic question. For my next novel, I’ve chosen a- Oh, there’s something, okay- a 16-year-old protagonist who is an immigrant from Peru. I’m always worried that I will be accused of misrepresenting a culture that isn’t my own, although I’m half Latina and my husband’s Peruvian, it isn’t the same. Should I write this book or should I only write characters, who is this, who are the same as me, half white and half Latina? If the answer is, yes, please also speak about authors who write a main character of the opposite gender, or does this quote unquote rule only applied to race. Thanks. Anita, you are an own voices writer. This is my professional opinion and others may disagree with me on this, but the fact that you are half Latina, and that your husband is Peruvian, it means that you can own this experience of a Peruvian immigrant. I would be more concerned if you were trying to write a black character, and the reason for that is if we are writing a story that is about a person, the main character who is a race that is not our own, I really believe we should be holding the place for that book to be written by a person of the same color of- as the main character.

[00:25:11] However, in our books, we want them to reflect the multicultural world in which we live. So if we are a white writer, don’t have all the characters around your main character, be white, have them be gay, black, Asian, disabled, all the things that you might not be. Just like, I am sure your friend group is or could be, if you wanted it to be, that reflects actual reality? But if we’re white, main character should be white. If the writer is not white, I think that they should be writing in the race that they are. The exception for that and this is a really weird exception and this is where I may get- I might get a lot of email about the show, but the exception to this is, if you’re black or if you’re Latin X, or if you are a Bipoc writer, I say you get to write a white main character whenever you want. Because reverse racism isn’t real. So, Bipoc writers get to write whatever the hell you want, keeping in mind that perhaps a Latin X writer might not want to write a black character, that character might not want to write a Latin X main character, but if you all want a bright white, any time, absolutely. You have been living in this white supremacist culture. You get to write in it whenever you want. It’s kind of like me being queer. I’ve written three or four queer characters right now. But I write about straights all the time because we live in a heteronormative society and I’m able to do that. So boy, am I getting a lot of email for this, but anyway, Anita, absolutely write that character it’s fabulous. Yeah, the other, the other question about gender I feel very comfortable writing about men, writing from a male point of view because we live in a patriarchal society and I know a lot about men because of that. Men who write in women’s voices, with a woman main character I’m also totally down for that. As long as they can use their imagination, maybe get a sensitivity reader and don’t have their breasts move boobly when they walk down a set of stairs. Cause I think we’ve talked about this recently, but men, no woman ever thinks about her boobs unless they hurt, unless they’re flapping around as she’s running.

[00:27:44] No woman ever looks down at her body and says, “Hmm, my breasts are sexy!” It doesn’t happen. And I have seen it hundreds of times in male written books, including the first page of this New York Times’ bestseller. A bookseller actually took me over to the book while we were talking about it. She goes, check this one out. It was on the New York Times’ best seller list. It was number one that week and that happened on the first page, the male writers’ female main point of view character looked down and admired her breasts. It doesn’t happen men. So otherwise, the gender thing I think is a to me is much more of a flexible, just like, just like gender is a spectrum. People play with that, but keep in mind what you’re doing. Try not to be offensive. Sensitivity readers are amazing. Pay them well, and that’s what I got to say about that. 

[00:28:40] So, wow! What a fun, exciting show. I have a lot of opinions today, apparently to share with you. And if you’ve been watching on YouTube, sorry that my face froze. I was worried that I lost all the audio, but I didn’t. It’s still there. So that’s fabulous. I guess I’m still struggling with this new computer a little bit. I want to say thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting me, thank you for letting me support you. That is truly the second most important part of my job. The number one most important part of my job is the writing. The second most important and really beloved part of my job is supporting you. So please let me know how I can do that better. If you would like to pledge to Patreon at the $5 level, I can be mini coach too, and answer any of your questions. That’s at patreon.com/Rachael. And I hope that y’all have a good week that you stay safe from hurricanes and fires and floods and COVID, and remember some self-care as well as getting some writing done. Okay my friends, we’ll talk soon. 

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.

Lan Cao is the author of Monkey Bridge and The Lotus and the Storm, and most recently of the scholarly work Culture in Law and Development: Nurturing Positive Change. She is a professor of law at the Chapman University School of Law, and an internationally recognized expert specializing in international business and trade, international law, and development. She has taught at Brooklyn Law School, Duke University School of Law, University of Michigan Law School, and William & Mary Law School.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao is a recent high school graduate. She was born in Williamsburg, Virginia and moved to Southern California when she was ten. She has a beautiful singing voice and plays the violin and piano. She will be attending UCLA in the fall of 2020 and plans to study economics and philosophy, while also continuing to write. 

Their book, Family in Six Tones, is at once special and universal, speaking to the unique struggles of refugees as well as the universal tug-of-war between mothers and daughters. 

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers.

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:15] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #196 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. Absolutely thrilled that you are here with me today. And the interview today is with a mother daughter team, which I’ve never had on this show. And it’s a marvelous interview. Lan Cao, and her daughter Harlan Margaret Van Cao are both on the show. They wrote a memoir together, and a lot of you know, how I feel about mother-daughters. That’s my core story, it’s what I write about all the time. My relationship with my mother was one of the most important relationships of my life. As, as is true with many people, but I so enjoyed talking to these two and I know that you are going to enjoy listening, so that is coming up. 

[00:01:03] A little catch up about what is going on around here. What is not going on around here? It has been such a week. In publishing, I got my, I got Hush Little Baby back again for another very quick revision. My editor just had two character changes that she wanted me to make. And I completely agree with everything she says as usual. And it’s just going through the book one more time and making sure everything matches and cleaning it up. And then it should go to copy edits, which is awesome because when you deliver a book, when you finish your editor revisions right before it goes to copy edits, that’s usually when you get paid for delivery of the manuscript in an acceptable form. So that’ll be a nice little money coming in. That’d be great. And, but in personal, holy Helen! It has been wild around here. We had, you may have heard this enormous lightning storm. I think it was Saturday night, Sunday night, this weekend? It must have been Saturday night and I am an ex-fire dispatcher, and like I always say, you can take the girl out of fire dispatch. You can’t take the fire dispatch out of the girl. And I was terrified. My sister, my little sister lives on the coast on highway one, one road in one road out. And she’s just surrounded by grassland by vegetation. There’s really, she lives, her house is really so low and then there’s a farm, you know, behind it there’s nobody out there. It’s an, it’s an idyllic place to live. She looks right at the ocean. But I contacted her while it was still storming and she was indeed awake watching the storming, because we know when we have summer lightning fires, like we had in 2008, 12 years ago, it’s bad. It’s really bad for California.

[00:02:52] I actually worked those fires in 2008 on the line as a dispatcher being at the fire up in the August lightning complex up in Eureka. So I know of which I speak and I was like, get out, get out. But she was committed to staying there and watching to make sure her neighbors were safe. And the fires actually didn’t start for another couple of days. They started. But they just kind of ramped up right as the wind changed. And then yesterday it was getting really, really hairy. And she gotten up early, she’d watched the Cal fire report and Cal fire had said about these two big fires that were burning within her eyesight. They, they could not, they didn’t have resources. They had no resources to fight these fires and they needed to divert the resources that they did have to other fires that were threatening more structures for Bethany lives that is not heavily populated. But in Napa and in San Jose, on, you know, all the rest of the places over the state, you prioritize lives and then property. And the less property there is, the less the fires are. But the less they’re concerned about fires with good reason. That’s the way they should be operating. 

[00:04:07] So this was the Waddell and the butanol fires, and it’s not Butano, these people in this area call it Butanol. I don’t know why, but those two fires emerged that day and basically kind of surrounded my sister. So she needed to evacuate. I was panicking on the social medias and I was just kind of furious. I had this furious reaction. I rarely go rage-y. But you all know my political beliefs on the show. So I’m sure that I will not surprise you when I say all of this is blamable on president Trump. And here’s how, if you want to sign out and go away, that’s absolutely fine. Goodbye. Because of our astonishingly inept response to COVID-19, we have responded in the worst way possible in every way we could possibly respond to the nation as compared to all the other first world nations who have handled it well. Because of his response, COVID-19 is ravaging the prison system. And in many States, including California, we rely on slave labor, for fighting our wildfires and that’s not an exaggeration for the 13th amendment slavery was abolished except for prisoners. Who can be used for labor without pay, although they do get $5 a day. So, yay. And the other thing is, is the prisoners opt in to do this fighting, it is a privilege. It is a privilege that they work for and they don’t want it taken away.

[00:05:45] I have been out on the fires. I have seen the prisoners. They are freaking incredible. They’re the hand crews. They are basically the ones on the front line. They are the ponds on the board that go out with shovels and dig lines. They’re doing the hardest work. They’re doing the most amazing work and guess what? We don’t pay them to do that and they can’t go anyway because they’re too sick. So California burns down. All of this is a preamble to say that I wrote a tweet about Cal fire saying that they had no resources, could not fight the fires, and I connected it to the COVID-19 outbreaks in the prisons and which, you know, was verified by other media and what I know, and it went viral y’all! It went viral, which was a ride. I’m going to pause this and look at my stats cause I haven’t looked in a while. Hold on, man. Yeah. So this was yesterday, a Wednesday, the 19th today’s the 20th as I record this. It has 17,300 Retweets. It has 1.7 million impressions are times people saw this tweet on Twitter and 160,000 engagements, which is a lot. And I’ve always known that if I ever go viral, I need to pimp a book, right? That’s what we do. 

[00:07:13] We are always kind of thinking about marketing. It would have been hard to do for some tweets that have gotten, you know, that I have made in the past. This one was actually appropriate because it was using my experience as a 17-year veteran 911 dispatcher as was, Stolen Things that came out in paperback last week, was written from the viewpoint of a dispatcher written by a 911 dispatcher, me. So I attached to, okay, so the quote that went, the tweet that went viral says “Cal fire admits and presser this morning that they have no resources to fight this. Like none. Guess why? Because the prison populations who have for decades been California’s primary firefighter, hand crews on wildfires are too sick with COVID to go.” And then I link to a SAC B, Sacramento, B article that talks about how sick they are and how they can’t go to the fires. So then in response to that, I, said while you’re here and rage-y, I wrote a thriller about police corruption based on a true story, about a 911 dispatcher, which I was for 17 years newly out in paperback from Penguin books, USA, Stolen Things, and put the picture and the Amazon link. And I thought that my publisher would either fire me or really liked that I had done that. And it turns out that it was okay. I didn’t get fired. They really liked it. I had been keeping a very close eye on the reviews, on Amazon, which haven’t changed. I haven’t gotten a new one. I was waiting for like, you know, those hate reviews that you can ask to have removed, like, like racist pizza parlor owners get on yelp, you know?

[00:08:56] I have watched the Amazon rank drop on Amazon, which is, you know, going the right direction. So it is becoming more popular. People were buying the book. It was really dumb when I was first posting the original tweet that that tweet that went viral was attached to, it was two screenshots of my sister’s area from the night before. And then the morning of looking at the NASA radiant hotspots. And, and I had just done screenshots and my email was open at the time. So you can see my most used email at the top of those screenshots. And I even saw it when I was pasting it in. And I thought to myself, no one reads my Twitter except people who know where I am and how to find me. My email is not hidden. It is a 4 seconds search, if you want to email Rachael Herron. So I didn’t bother to remove it. And I was expecting a lot of hate mail because the mentions all of the replies, I actually had to mute it because it was stressing me out. There were so many, there are so many people yelling and arguing at each other. They weren’t even arguing with me. They were just arguing near me. So I muted it. I have received not one piece of hate mail, which is fabulous. I did get subscribed to all the Fox news channels, daily briefings and also to the NRA, which is funny because you, you have to confirm all those. So I’m actually not subscribed.

[00:10:17] It just went to my email as somebody trying to subscribe me, which I actually thought was hilarious and good try. So, so that has been fun. And but the most important part of the story. It’s not about books. It’s not about marketing. It’s not about watching for opportunities, even though it feels really, really weird to attach a book to that kind of Tweet. The important part is that my sister got out, she evacuated to safety. She is staying at a friend’s house who is out of town in Oakland. So she’s really close by and she got out safely and her roommates got out safely. And who knows if their house is going to make it? I really hope it does, but she is safe. And for about 4 hours’ yesterday, she wanted to stay and me and my other sister really wanted her to go. So, I was panicking and, and it reminds me again that these feelings that we have, this fear that I had, those, those tears, that I was crying as I was so angry that I wasn’t able to talk her into leaving earlier. You know why? Because she’s an adult human person who gets to make up her own mind on doing everything. And she’s way more sensible than I am anyway. About most things, perhaps all things, we get to use and mine, all of those strong emotions and put them on the page and yeah I didn’t think about writing at all yesterday.

[00:11:44] I really tried towards the end of the day, but I was exhausted from emotion and from being viral, which was just a very, very strange experience. Solid out of Brian, picked it up Chris, somebody else, some pundit picked it up. So, people were texting me, sending it to me, which was very strange. So I didn’t get any work done yesterday. But today I’m at the page. And again, you understand this, I’m letting the emotions that I felt be used. I am channeling them into the work. And I know, one of my characters is, is dealing with fear right now. And I know what fear feels like viscerally inside my physical body. Which is the, which is I think the best thing to put on the page when we were talking about emotions. It’s, it’s, it’s one thing to say, she felt fear. And another thing to say, the nausea roiled as her, you know, in her, in her throat as her skin when clamming or whatever it is that you are actually gonna say creatively. But yes. So today I’m back at the manuscript. I’m back here talking to you, the world has gone back to normal for me and my immediate family. Not for the people whose homes are burning all over the state. Thanks to that lightning storm and, it’s just what a, what a year. Another reminder that it’s a rollercoaster. Get you ready then when you can, and don’t worry about it when you can’t. Sometimes you just can’t. 

[00:13:19] If you follow me on Twitter yesterday, I wrote, I made a flow chart for a decision making chart for when you can’t focus because of events. So that’ll be over my Twitter, @RachaelHerron (R A C H A E L H E R R O N) @ Twitter. If something like that would help you. I basically really wanted a decision tree for, I am distracted by everything. Should I push myself into writing? So that is at the Twitters. All right. That is a very long introduction, but I want to say very quickly, thank you to new patrons, have a few here because I don’t think I thanked them last week. Johanna Spears and Amy Bethkey, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Nicole Knightly and Rosie, Rosie Radcliffe. Thank you all so much for joining the Patreon. It means that I have the chance to write those essays for you, and it means the world to be able to write those for you. So that is over patreon.com/Rachael. And now let’s jump into the interview with this fantastic mother and daughter writing duo. I know you’re going to love what they have to say. Okay. Happy writing. And please for the love of God, stay safe. 

[00:14:27] Hey, you’re a writer. Did you know that I send out a free weekly email of writing encouragement? Go sign up for it at www.rachaelherron.com/write and you’ll also get my Stop Stalling and Write PDF with helpful tips you can use today to get some of your own writing done. Okay, now onto the interview.

Rachael Herron: [00:14:245] Well, I could not be more pleased to welcome to the show today two people a mother and daughter duo, Lan Cao and Harlan Margaret Van Cao. Welcome both of you. 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:14:57] Thank you so much for having us 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:58] It’s so exciting. Let me give you, let me give everyone your both of your bios, cause they need to know both of these. Lan Cao is the author of Monkey Bridge and The Lotus and The Storm, and most recently of the scholarly work Culture in Law and Development: Nurturing Positive Change. She is a professor of law at the Chapman University School of Law, and an internationally recognized expert, experts specializing in international business and trade, international law, and development. She has taught at Brooklyn Law School, Duke, and the University of Michigan Law School, and William & Mary Law School.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao, her daughter is a recent high school graduate. She was born in Williamsburg, Virginia, and moved to Southern California when she was 10. She has a beautiful singing voice and plays the violin and piano. She will be attending UCLA in the fall of 2020 and plans to study econ and philosophy while also continuing to write. And the two of you wrote, just the most beautiful book, Family in Six Tones. And you did it together. And I really want to kind of dive into what that looked like for your process. Cause I know that if my mother and I had ever written a book together, when I was your age Harlan, it wouldn’t, it would not have gone wrong. Well, it would not have gone well. So, but first of all, this, this podcast is about process and writing process. Lan, you have a lot of experience in writing, but this experience must have been completely different. What is your process? What was your process like for this particular book?

Lan Cao: [00:16:32] For this particular book I had to really learn to let go.

Rachael Herron: [00:16:37] How was that? 

Lan Cao: [00:16:38] That’s very hard. Somebody who is very focused, let’s say on measurable standards of achievement. So for example, you know, I am originally from Vietnam. So when I first came to this country, it was very important for me to have like an objective and have a kind of list of to do things that will get me towards that objective. Right. So it’s been very, been very disciplined in terms of knowing what to go after and how to achieve it. And you work with another writer, and I think this, this might be an issue with any collaborator, but all the more with when it’s your daughter at a particular age, also, I think you have to realize that because it’s a collaboration, you really can’t always have your way. And it’s a very big compromise when you’re writing, because in writing, I’ve written other books and articles and it’s, you know, it’s whatever you want to do. It’s, it’s your space, right? It’s, it’s your imagination. And with her having to sort of just go with the flow in a really freeing way was hard. It felt constricted at first. Interesting but letting go felt constricting to me because it sounds like a paradox and having to take her vision and what she wanted to write about into consideration was very hard for me. And also because we write about each other also in the book, you see right away how the person remembers a particular episode and it’s not how you remember it. And it’s not necessarily that one person’s memory is going to override another. It’s just sort of like the Rashomon, right, they’re just so many different perspective, 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:41] Yes. 

Lan Cao: [00:18:42] I just have to let all of that go. And just go by faith and hope that the finished work will cohere. 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:49] How did it work, deciding how to put the pieces together?

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:19:10] Well, the publishing house would recommend, you know, we want you to do, Lan-Harlan, Lan-Harlan,

Rachael Herron: [00:19:16] Okay.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:19:17] I think also doing that is good because it gives both of us breathing time, but we both have very different strategies in writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:26] Tell me about that. 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:19:27] Well, I think my mother, I don’t want to speak for her, but I’m pretty sure, you know, her past books are novels, unless they’re about law, 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:37] Right, right.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:19:38] So if you have a novel and you write as a therapy, you can hide behind characters, 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:45] Yeah

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:19:46] Right, like you say outright, like this happened to me. Originally, like for example, I never imagined when I was little and I thought about being a writer. I never thought my first book would pretty much just be like a confession. I thought, I thought it would be more so like, if I wanted to like talk about, I don’t know, like at the time, whatever felt important, like a boy or something. 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:09] Right, right.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:20:10] I would think like, I’m gonna write about him in this way and put him in another character. I never imagined I’d have to think, like, I’m just gonna change his name a tiny bit and kind of use this as a way to say, to just spill it all. So for, for my mother, I think, especially for someone who’s gone through something so traumatic, she’s very used to not- she did, she never had to say outright this happened, or explain, also it is very difficult I think when you are writing about parenting, because people judge so much on parenting. And it’s usually also the people who’ve never have a child. 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:46] Definitely.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:20:47] So the audience, I’m not sure exactly who that is yet, but if somebody is a parent they can judge on, am I writing, am I the same as Lan? Or am I not or someone who doesn’t have a child they’ll judge also. I think there’s a lot of pressure for that too. So I- I’m very respectful of how she handled it. Cause I can imagine how hard it is because for me separately, it’s different. I’m only, I just turned 18. So even though I did write about a lot of things, it’s not 60 years’ worth of- sorry 59 year’s worth of stuff. And on top of it, I’m not being- because the kid never is usually judged in how they are a child, you know, like they’re judged as a person, not how they react to the mothering. Whereas the mothers are judged on how they mother, and who they are as a person. So that’s why its different.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:40] That leads me to an interesting question that, so I teach memoir a lot. I teach a semester long course at Stanford, and one of the things that students in memoir have a very hard time learning how to do, is how to be confessional and transparent on the page in a very real way, which both of you do beautifully. In your book, both of your voices are completely real and believable. Did either of you struggle with that? 

Lan Cao: [00:22:13] I, I struggle because it’s a brand new form for me. I’m much more used to doing fiction and the reason why I was more drawn to fiction, even though it takes, it just requires a lot of imagination in friction. Even if it’s based on some kind of event in your life, you have character plot, narrative, you know, all of, all of everything having to work together. With memoir, you are committed to telling the truth. Even if your version may be different from another person, you’re not making things up. So it just felt so raw and exposed to me that it’s just very stark. And once I accepted that, that was the big hurdle for me. But once I accepted it, I didn’t have trouble plunging into it and she, on the other hand was, had no trouble at all. So I, I was sort of- she was the engine in the sense that, because she had not done fiction, this is her first foray in writing and it’s a memoir form. So it’s natural to her. I had to overcome letting go of fiction to enter this particular universe. So in that way, she was the engine that pulled me into this direction, which felt more raw, more exposed. More unveiled. And that was hard for me so we actually had a lot of disagreement about what we’re going to include. Now, one very, and this also has to do with letting go that I have talked about. I never wanted to say to her, I don’t want you to write about this. I, I say, I’m uncomfortable, but I wouldn’t say you’re absolutely forbidden, even though I really wanted to. And part of it was because I wanted her writing experience to be one about writing, opening up the world for you, right. It’s a soaring process. You’re flying. You’re floating. You’re not within any kind of self-imposed or externally imposed confined. So I didn’t want to restrain her. I didn’t want writing to be about her strength, even though I felt like it should be restrained because the memoir form is very raw to me. So as a result of wanting her first experience to be about freedom, she basically was the engine. She took us, she, she, she would write about something, that I didn’t want to write about, but once she has written it, because it’s a memoir, I can’t just say go, right. I feel like I, if I read it, I would have to at least contextualize it in my chapter. So in many ways it’s kind of like an echo. Yeah. Even if I didn’t want to, I would have to at least address it in some form in my section.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:32] So did you do this narratively through the whole process? Would you write a chapter and then Harlan read a chapter and then you would be reacting to it? No it was out of order, tell me about that.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:25:41] No, we do not consult each other, unless it wasn’t an argument. To be honest with you. First of all, I-

Lan Cao: [00:25:48] We had a lot of arguments. 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:25:49] Yeah. It was a, it was a lot, and it’s also hard because it didn’t- it would start with the book and it would go into other things that normal, like parent-daughter would write argue about?

Rachael Herron: [00:26:00] Sure

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:26:01] And it becomes like at the end of the argument, you still have to sit down together and think like, so what about the actual problem at hand? Like, are we going to write about this or not? And sometimes I’m not gonna lie. I was mad, so I would write about it anyway, and then she would find out and I figured if she responds to it, that’s great. But if she didn’t, it’s still totally okay, because then the reader themselves will notice. Okay, Lan didn’t respond to what Harlan said, this is interesting. Maybe it’s like, it symbolizes something else. Because with memoir, I always thought memoirs are for people who are kind of like at the end of their career. No offense. You’re not the end. But someone who’s already experienced things, not someone who is not even in their twenties. So-

Lan Cao: [00:26:42] I, I think she was, you were 16 when you started? Yeah

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:26:44] I was 16 when I started. So, I was always more comfortable with novels anyway, just because again, like I never prepared to write a memoir. So what we found is a small compromise, which I think is good any way when you write, anything is to just imply. You don’t, you don’t have to always explicitly say something. A lot of the time, but sometimes I would imply too much like those, those chapters where I kind of hint at shadow selves, for example, like they, they became kind of so vague that the person who was meant to, you know, there’s a lot of process for the book. So a lot of people would go and try to catch things that didn’t seem right. People would ask in the comments, like, what are you trying to say? Because it was too much, too vague. So you have to come up with that together. We would have very long discussions about how to describe it perfectly, but a lot of the time that would lead to arguments, of course. Because we’re very different people. I feel like with a very intense parental relationship, you, the kid either will be just like the mother in a certain way or exactly the opposite. So in terms of, kind of like censoring oneself, I think I am the opposite of my mother, just because I always felt we should complement each other. Do you know what I mean? 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:03] Absolutely.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:28:04] Like, she’s very, like even at a dinner party, I remember when I was little, someone would ask her kind of a personal question and she would just glaze right over and they’d kind of look confused. Like I asked you something and she just kind of went on about something else. And I don’t know if she did it on purpose or if not, but I noticed, and then they’d ask me something, I would just tell them. Not to the point where it’s like weird, but you know, I was never uncomfortable admitting stuff just because I never felt the world should be something of judgment, you know, like I-

Lan Cao: [00:28:31] She’s more extroverted

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:28:32] Yeah

Lan Cao: [00:28:33] And I’m more introverted and that comes across in the way we approach writing also

Rachael Herron: [00:28:37] And it comes across in the book as well. And the way with which you both communicate with the reader and the two in this expression of this book, I think are really, really lovely. I’m sorry. I’m deviating totally from the questions I sent you, but I would love to know and perhaps, perhaps Harlan will want to answer this rather than Lan, but you might both want to. How has your relationship as a mother-daughter team changed over the course of the writing and the promotion launch of this book?

Lan Cao: [00:29:09] Well, even separate and apart from the book and you can pick up on the answer regarding the book. You don’t, we’re close in the sense that, we talk to each other and there’s a, there’s a relationship we’re not two shifts passing through the night in the house. And over the course of our relationship, I think we’ve had a lot more confrontations probably than I’m used to with my own mother, for example. And especially being raised in a traditional Asian household, the idea that you would just poke at your parents or dissect what they’re saying, or, you know, have to talk back at them in the same tone. Tit-for-tat would, would never happen, but she’s raised in this country and she’s fully American. So there’s much more of that. And every time that we’ve had that kind of collision, I’ve always felt really like, oh my God, this is terrible. And she always says, well, that was good. She, she thought it was good and that she thought it was, you know, somehow moving the relationship forward. And in my head I’m like, oh my God, I never did this with my parents. What the heck is this all about? 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:30:21] Sometimes during arguments she’ll be like, don’t psychoanalyze me. Because during, during an argument, it’ll be like, I feel like we should talk about why you’re being so defensive. I’m like, what is it that happened to you? I really want to know. Like, cause she’s been through so much, you know, so 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:34] And now, you know, so much more, right? After the, because of this.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:30:38] Yes. So I try to relate everything back to it. I think like the other day we got in an argument, it started because there’s a bin by the door that’s for blankets and the closet for coats is right by it. But when I’m like throughout the day, I’m a very lazy person. I don’t hang up the coat, I just drop it in the bin. So it starts with that, and we literally got to the point where I was like slamming the door shut, like something she would never have done as a kid, you know, because it goes into other stuff, all the time, every single time. But I do think of it differently. I think even though I’m realistic with my mom, I have to be the optimist in the relationship because she, as she said, she grew up in an Asian household, but writing the book together, I don’t know if it necessarily changed the relationship, but I think it made me more conscientious of it, more aware because now every time I argue with her, I, well, I mean, I’d obviously take her seriously, but I do still picture that I’m arguing with like a tiny kid, almost. Because I still think I see every part of her in herself, you know, she’s like one of those, like Russian nesting dolls that had like all the layers that you take off-

Rachael Herron: [00:31:51] That’s beautiful

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:31:52] So you, I sometimes, like, after an argument, I feel really bad because I know that she, she’s so high functioning as a person, like with her career and everything. But I know that if you’re going through, if you’ve gone through something so traumatic in your life at a certain age, like a part of you would always stay that age. So when I leave an argument for some reason, I feel this guilt that I don’t feel with anybody else in the world. Cause when I argue with other people, I really don’t care. Like I just want to make my point and then leave. But I think about it all the time with my mom, like, did I hurt her? I don’t want to upset her, but I still want to get my way, you know? So like where is the, where’s the, where’s the middle ground. So writing it definitely brought that part out of me where I’m way more aware and it- I’m sure it would have affected us differently if we had written it when I was 30 and she was 70 something you bring up your age. I’m sorry. She looks great. 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:46] You both look beautiful. 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:32:49] Yeah, but that’s what I, it wasn’t a negative thing during the time though, I would go to school. And I would be already exhausted starting the day off because the car ride would be plagued with arguments about it. So during the writing process itself, I was pretty pessimistic. Like I remember the editor read my ending and she was like, you sound way too sad with the world. Like you need to write. No, no, you’re looking forward to the future. And at the time I was like, but I’m not. And she’s like, you’re right that you are cause you will later on and you should feel better now. So I’m glad, you know, I didn’t just stick with kind of like screw the world, screw my mom at the time, which is what it was,

Lan Cao: [00:33:32] You know when you’re dealing with, you know, in adolescence, we all remember it because it’s a very traumatic. I mean you’re just up and down all the time and, you, you, you act out against the person who’s actually closest to you because it’s safest, right. That person is not going to abandon you.

Rachael Herron: [00:33:51] Right. 

Lan Cao: [00:33:52] And you know, doing that kind of writing with your teenage daughter, who is going through high school moods, and you know the age of social media on top of everything, it’s very hard, but it was, it really stirred up writing. I mean, I don’t remember when I was writing my two fiction books, which took me a much longer period of time to do. I don’t, I don’t remember ever being churned, in the same way. And that energy really provides the fertilizer for, for the writing in many ways, you know, because I find that writers have a lot internal going on. Right? And there’s just a lot of life inside every writer. And that’s what prompt us to write because it’s inside and it’s just sort of, it needs to come out. But when you write with your kid, there is an additional layer and in those teenage years, and you know, her father had just died also. So there’s just a lot of negative and positive energy. But in the yin-yang symbol, it looks peaceful because the whole point of being yang is that qualities that seem to be competing in fact are complimentary. That’s why you have the yin inside the yang part and the yang inside the yin. And they are, they’re sort of in harm- in harmony, but during the time when we were writing it’s as if you were taking that yin-yang symbol and shaking it up.

Rachael Herron: [00:35:32] Yeah

Lan Cao: [00:35:33] So it hadn’t settled down into harmony yet. Like eventually it would settle and coalesce, but at that point it was still in the shaking up space and it was good that we had the book to pour everything. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:47] Absolutely. 

Lan Cao: [00:33:48] Because probably even though we did fight about the book, I think that if we didn’t have the book, we would have fought without the structure of the book. 

Rachael Herron: [00:35:57] Yeah.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:35:58] Also, something good comes out of the argument. Yeah. I always say, like, I feel the only difference between the two of us and other mother-daughter relationships is that, you know, we just know how to put the words like aesthetically pleasing way, but I’m sure we still have the same kind of issues. I mean, not exactly the same, pretty unique, but the same tension as other, as other parent-daughter situations. And I feel very grateful because at least I have this kind of like piece of art to express it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:36:36] Yeah. This was your vehicle through those tumultuous years. Right?

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:36:39] There’s something, there’s something to that all the arguments will kind of speak for, and that’s important to me too. And as I’m leaving, I’m about to go to college, which feels so weird because I honestly still feel like a total baby, but as I’m leaving, we’ve argued a lot less now, but we still have moments, but I think it’s better to have like small moments all the time, then like 10 explosions. So that’s important. Whereas with the book, it would just be explosions like during those that year and a half, like once a week, probably huge. 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:18] That’s rough

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:37:19] Yeah. And then like the debris from the argument would kind of spread over like the half the week. So we don’t have good days every week 

Rachael Herron: [00:37:25] The fallout continued

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:37:26] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:37:27] Did you edit each other before it went to your editor? Thank goodness. I was thinking that would be brutal. 

Lan Cao: [00:37:33] I tried. I did once and tt was not good.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:37:38] Just once.

Lan Cao: [00:37:39] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:37:40] That’s amazing. Can you, either of you or both of you- 

Lan Cao: [00:37:43] It was childish and petty because she wrote, “She screamed.” 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:37:47] Oh, yeah, 

Lan Cao: [00:37:48] I change it to, “She raised her voice” or something like that. 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:37:53] Yeah and I lost it. 

Lan Cao: [00:37:55] And it made her so upset. She put back scream.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:37:56] Yeah. I made it work actually, I think. And I even ask her. I was like, I wrote again, I was like, I want to know where this comes from. Like, where does this need to have such approval on you? And she was like, don’t psychoanalyze, it’s always the same conversation. Like-

Rachael Herron: [00:38:09] I am enjoying talking to both of you. So, so, so, so much, this is amazing. Can either, or both of you share a craft tip about writing with our listeners who are all writers.

Lan Cao: [00:38:20] A what tip?

Rachael Herron: [00:38:21] A craft tip

Lan Cao: [00:38:22] Well, for me, you, you teach more creative writing? Right?

Rachael Herron: [00:38:27] Yeah. Only creative writing

Lan Cao: [00:38:22] For me when I was doing scholarly writing it’s, it’s, I feel very structured because I have research. Right? So you can always, if you’re stuck, you can always do research, but in, because the kind of fiction I write, is not so much research based. You know, if I’m writing about the Vietnam war, I’ve already read so much about it that there’s no research, right. So I’m, if I’m stuck, I don’t feel like I can divert being stuck by doing something related to writing that would un-stuck me, but in fact, I can just go on and say, let me research what the ted offensive was because I already know it. So there’s no way out for me when I’m doing writing of the kind I’m doing creatively that would allow like research or anything like that. And I just have learned to accept, you know, I don’t panic anymore because sometimes at the beginning, when I was stuck, it could last for a week or two, and I would feel totally frustrated. And feel like time is running out. Now, I think it’s really important to just again, let go. And I usually to be un-stuck, I don’t, I don’t read what I’m writing because I feel it’s just too close as to what I’m doing. So what has helped me tremendously when I’m stuck is first relax, not judge so much what I’m writing and saying, it’s so bad, you know, how could this have been written? And I usually try to go towards some other creative form. I’ll go to an art museum gallery. It is very creative and artistic, just not writing. So it’s, it’s just a different form of artistic expression and it really motivates me. So if I see color in a painting, it’s helped me tremendously because a lot of my books, I tend to pick a color as a theme and somehow, you know, so for example, you know, I love the trilogy Blue, White, and Red by the Polish director.

Rachael Herron: [00:40:40] Yeah, yeah. They’re beautiful. 

Lan Cao: [00:40:43] Each one stands for like the principles of the, of the French flag, right. Equality, fraternity. So the interplay of one form of art with another helps me. Music also helps me, like if I just tune out of writing and listen to music, it, it unplugs you, but not in the same form as what you’re stuck with. And I have found that to be always eventually inspiring to me to go back, to write it. I just put writing, not angst, find some other art form that is a great for me, and it makes me feel great about writing again.

Rachael Herron: [00:41:26] The nut angsting, I think is the key part there. Yeah.

Lan Cao: [00:41:29] Yeah. It’s time to go to the angst room. 

Rachael Herron: [00:41:32] That’s default, default mode for a lot of us. Yeah.

Lan Cao: [00:41:34] Because writers are maybe anxious already to begin with. Right. So it’s natural to go back to your normal self, 

Rachael Herron: [00:41:44] But to have a method of dealing with that is great

Lan Cao: [00:41:46] That has own chord for me.

Rachael Herron: [00:41:48] Harlan. How about you? 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:41:50] I’m honestly, very jealous of my mom’s answer cause it’s so healthy. 

Lan Cao: [00:41:55] But she’s not stuck, I mean

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:41:55] No. 

Lan Cao: [00:41:56] The kid is always writing.

Rachael Herron: [00:41:58] Yeah

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:41:59] But, okay. So honestly I don’t know if it’s a craft tip, cause I wouldn’t want someone else to do it this way, because I think it’s unhealthy. But first of all, the only thing I have to go off of, in terms of publishing is this memoir. And there was nothing that I had to come up with in terms of like a plot, because I know my plot happened.

Rachael Herron: [00:42:17] Right.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:42:18] The only thing that was challenging to me was how do I phrase it? But as I said, you know, it’s all about implying. I think that’s always the safest way to go and also the most like aesthetically pleasing thing to read is more implying that something so harsh. But I’ve noticed with- well, I’m working on another novel because when we first started this, Penguin kind of hinted, like maybe if I want something in the future, I could do it by myself if I was good enough. And so I’ve, I’ve been brainstorming a lot of things and my idea was to do kind of a novel about a girl through high school and it will relate to, it’s not anything tacky, I hope, but it’s gonna relate to like friendship, the mother, like relationship with the mother, like losing a dad, like also boys, something that I don’t think we can relate on very well, but that too. So when I feel stuck with things like that, it’s usually when I go through either a stage of full-on rollercoaster emotions, like up, down, up, down, or I go through stages of total numbness. Like robot mode, feeling kind of like dissociated. Like I’m, I’m almost watching my own life on a screen. Like I’m not actually the person going through it. So that’s when it’s also hard to write because I don’t want to write something that’s so dull. But then I noticed, I realized after a while that I should anyway, because that’s, what’s interesting, is the reader will notice, right? Like at this point, for some reason, she’s very emotional, she’s describing everything. And then here, it’s kind of as if she took like more like depressive morphine, like she’s just totally, it’s like clouds there’s no, and I think that’s good. Cause it’ll show that’s what my idea was. It’s kind of the reader will see it’s implied that the person is kind of off a little bit. I exaggerate it too, but I try to take advantage of the mood swings. Like I incorporate it into the writing. And it, but it only works for what I’m writing, because my idea, like the premise is that the person is going to be a little bit off in a sense, like you don’t really know what happened. I don’t know if you ever read Eleanor Oliphant Is Totally Fine, it’s like I kind of, but not as nutty and wrote like my age. But before I accepted that I would do it that way and I wanted to feel something so I could write the way I wanted to, I would kind of poke at parts in my life. Like if I was going to write about a person and I couldn’t find the emotions to write about that stage of my life that affected me, I would in real life, try to see them again. Cause I don’t want my feeling’s gone, which isn’t good either, because then it causes like the storm going on. I remember I would come home, I’d be like, mom, guess what I did today? Like I made a mistake. I texted this boy. She, no, just sit there and listen, I knew she wanted to say something, but she knew it would turn into an argument. So she just listened and then I’d walk upstairs and just sit by myself and start writing about it. But yeah because it’s, during those times where I just don’t, I’m kind of just like the screw it attitude, you know, like I want to write about this. I can’t. So, this will bring out emotion. So I don’t know if that’s the healthiest way to deal with it, but I always feel like if you are going through something where you can’t write, like writer’s block and you know it’s because you’re depressed, maybe even though not everyone’s conscious of that, you should take advantage of it, you know, because then you look back and that’s the whole point of the book you see, like the up and down. 

Rachael Herron: [00:45:54] I just wildly impressed that you are able to see this at this beautiful 30,000-foot level. It’s gorgeous. And another thing I want to point out Harlan, is that you keep alluding to, you know, this, this implying thing that you’re doing on the page, which is really an advanced writing method. What most writers do at first is to tell everything. And not what you’re talking about doing is including the reader in the journey and trusting the reader to be an intelligent person to make those logical leaps and to have to think about what’s going on in the page. And the thing that I’m always trying to teach students is that the more you include the reader on this journey, the more you make the reader work, the more they love what you’re writing, because you’re trusting them. And you already know that so internally and so intrinsically. I think it’s fabulous.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:46:42] It was a battle though, because it’s like no offense to humans, but are they gonna be smart enough to realize that like, hopefully they don’t think it’s just bad writing.

Rachael Herron: [00:46:49] Some people will not be smart enough to realize it and that’s okay. And that’s okay. We just have to deal with that. I always try to write for someone who is as smart as I am or smarter, right. Cause I’m going to be getting smarter as I write this book, the book will teach me something. So what we’re, we’re running out of time, but I have to, I have to tell you that my mother was a writer and a huge reader. And we had this connection and my mother was my favorite person and almost every book I write is about the mother daughter-relationship. That’s my core story. That’s what I go back to again and again. And to see you two, together doing this, just like if anybody’s looking at me on the screen, I’m actually going red. I’m overheating. Just so happy about being able to talk to you and to read this beautiful book and to see you in person. Will you tell us where we can find you online? And maybe, maybe we haven’t done this. Tell us a little bit about the book, about Family in Six Tones what it, what it’s about.

Lan Cao: [00:47:44] So it’s, it’s a mother-daughter memoir and the format is quite unique because usually as, as you’re aware, a lot of mother-daughter books tend to be written about the, by the daughter when the daughter is already older and sort of reflecting back on her relationship with her mother. But this is immediate, you know, like she’s writing as the daughter. In present day time, and the story is just surrounding the, it’s a story that is, that revolves around various themes, which came out of an NPR interview that harder than I did for StoryCorps. And we did it 20, I think she was only 15 or 14,

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:48:33] I was like 12, 

Lan Cao: [00:48:34] 12 

Rachael Herron: [00:48:35] Wow

Lan Cao: [00:48:36] Long time ago and they dug it out in 2018 because it was the 50th anniversary of the tech offensive. So the entire interview was very long, but the portion that was played on NPR was in 2018 and it just dealt with the tech offensive. So somebody at Viking heard it and came to us and said, you should expand this because it was a Q&A, they included Harlan in, in division. And so the theme is about war, you know, the repercussions of war, the aftermath of war, intergenerational trauma, present trauma, past trauma, migration, being a refugee. Assimilating into a new country, what does being an American mean? So those are all sort of the main themes that we touch upon, but of course, you know, not in a didactic way, just sort of in a way that is incorporated naturally into our story palette. And so the first generation, second generation, so what does it mean for her to be raised, you know, as an American, but with that kind of edifice and framework in the background. 

Rachael Herron: [00:49:52] Yeah. Good way of putting it. 

Lan Cao: [00:49:52] And it’s very much to me also kind of like a love story to America 

Rachael Herron: [00:49:56] Yeah, yeah. I can see that.

Lan Cao: [00:49:58] Because America is, is almost a character in my life.

Rachael Herron: [00:50:02] Yes

Lan Cao: [00:50:03] So I, I make it as sometimes the protagonist, sometimes an antagonist in my life. Because just like a person, the country is very complicated too. You know, there are good days and bad days for the country. So it’s my relationship with this country that I’ve adopted also. 

Rachael Herron: [00:50:21] That is so beautiful. It’s also a love story between you two. 

Lan Cao: [00:50:25] Yeah. Yeah, it is. 

Rachael Herron: [00:50:26] And I adore that. I adore that. So where can we find you online? 

Lan Cao: [00:50:30] I’m on Facebook. She’s not on Facebook, but she’s on Instagram, 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:50:34] Yeah. Harlan_vc, yes.

Lan Cao: [00:50:38] And the website, LanCaoAuthor.com  

Rachael Herron: [00:50:41] Perfect. Thank you both so much for this. This was absolutely beautiful. 

Lan Cao: [00:50:46] We want to give you a virtual kiss. 

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:50:47] You’re very sweet.

Rachael Herron: [00:50:49] I know, I know. Through all the coronavirus virtual hugs. Yes, I will let you know when this is live. And thank you so much that the book is a joy and so are you two.

Harlan Margaret Van Cao: [00:51:00] Thank you so much

Lan Cao: [00:51:01] Thank you for your time including us.

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.

Ivuoma Okoro is the writer, producer, and performer of the narrative fiction podcast Vega: A Sci-Fi Adventure!. The show is stylized storytelling, where she, as a colorful narrator, talks to listeners directly as she leads them through the tale of a bounty huntress of the fantasy future. After launching the show in late 2018, Vega won “Best Writing of a New Spoken Word Production” and “Best Performance of a New Spoken Word” in the 2019 Audioverse Awards. In addition to that, Ivuoma was invited to speak on Film Independent’s 2019 panel for narrative podcasts “Narrative Podcasts: Stories & Sound” in the spring of that year. While most of her writing efforts are focused on the podcast, Ivuoma practices prose fiction through a bi-weekly newsletter and ultimate dreams on making her way into television animation.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

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Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #195 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron.

[00:00:21] So thrilled that you’re here with me today. Fantastic interview lined up for you from Ivuoma Okoro and it was just a thrill to talk to her about something that we normally don’t talk about on this podcast. She’s writing and producing and putting on like a drama podcast. And it’s going to be so exciting for you to listen to, because she reminded me as I always need reminding. There are so many different paths to doing what we’re doing and the creative talent and energy and inspiration that is out there is incredible. So please enjoy, she talks a little bit about, changing forms in order to get better at plotting, which is something that I had never even thought about doing. We really bonded over the difficulty in plotting. Some of you don’t have that difficulty. She and I do. So that was really great. I know that you’re going to enjoy that interview. 

[00:00:25] What’s going on around here. I am actually really enjoying this tiny bit of down time. I am working on this big idea, taking the collection of essays that I was working on and making it kind of skewing it a little bit to a new angle which has me completely fired up. I am just a light with ideas for this in a way that feels magnificent. So I’m just really enjoying going down that rabbit hole, letting my brain play with it, letting myself have time to think about what the best course of action for this particular book will be and what I want to make sure that I don’t miss in this revision. It’s a massive revision. Yay. Yay. So I’m very excited about that. In technical. Interesting news. So I think I mentioned that I got an iPad mini because I had enjoyed doing the very, very last cleanup of Hush Little Baby before I sent it to my editor on my wife’s iPad. I loved it so much that I think I was only like maybe half an hour into the experience. And I asked my wife to buy me an iPad mini because she enjoys buying Apple products. So she got me one and I have been addicted to it since I got it. And it’s in a very professional and what’s the word organizational way. I loaded Good Notes onto it. After researching what is the best kind of note taking application for this. What I really, really wanted was to be able to use the Apple pencil on it and take notes, right? Because we all writers tend to like taking handwritten notes. My handwriting’s not that beautiful. It’s a little bit hard to read, but I can read it. I love it. I have books everywhere, planners everywhere. They’re coming out my ears. And I always loved to try the next new greatest thing. So I learned that with Good Notes, this app, you could go onto Etsy of all places and download Good Notes configurations. So I looked at all of their daily planners, Bo Joe’s journals, and I found out one I really liked, bought it for like $9 and uploaded it onto Good Notes. I’m using that right now as my planner, even though I have like two paper planners on my desk as well. I am addicted to planners, but I’m loving the ability to write by hand on the planner, but have it look really good. I got a matte. A screen protector for it. And using the Apple pencil with the matte screen protector really feels great. It almost feels like you’re writing on paper. I’m keeping my journal in there now. I am reading a friend’s book and making marks all over it. I am currently actively going in and updating all of these ideas I’m having for this revision of this collection of essays for this memoir. And it feels really, really good.

[00:04:31] It is so fun. It feels very, very productive. And I have to tell you I’m a little bit scared because I had already downloaded the post-its app for my phone. I know don’t stop laughing and I hadn’t ever used it, but I thought, Oh, it might be a little bit more usable on an iPad. So I just, this afternoon downloaded the posted app. It’s free by 3m, right. And I downloaded it onto the iPad and I have all of these post-its. My beloved post-it’s for the book I’m working on and it let me hold the iPad over them. Take pictures of the pages of post-its it automatically separates the post-its. Your handwriting is right there and you can still move them all over on the screen into whatever formats you want them. You can change the color of the post-it, this is the post-it that I wrote by hand. Now it’s inside my post-it app. I can move around with my finger to go wherever I wanted to go in. I can change the color. I can write new ones. I actually have an important post-it on my desk, which is kind of like my mission statement, my purpose. And I held up the iPad and took a picture of that post-it and now it’s a post-it inside the app. I don’t think it will take away my love for paper post-its and God knows I hope it doesn’t because I just got into composting those. 

[00:05:57] But it has been really, really exciting. I don’t know if I’m the only person to get this excited about post-it notes but I bet I’m not, I bet one of you really loves post-it notes as much as I do. So anyway, I’m loving the iPad. I got a stand for it to sit on, on the desk and it’s kind of working as a second screen sometimes. I do absolutely everything for my entire business. And I always have on a tiny 11-inch MacBook air. This one is actually like six years old and keeps crashing. So at some point I’m going to have to upgrade. But and having the tiny laptop, I love having the tiny screen. It works for me, but having the second screen is pretty nice too. So in terms of enjoying production and tech, this iPad mini is really treating me right. I very much like it. Plus, I got an incredibly cute comp book cover for it, which matches the comp book cover I have on my Kindle and I have a theme, because we love notebooks. I am passionate about notebooks. I’m not losing my notebooks. I’m not losing those other planners. This is in addition to, and it’s really working for my process.

[00:07:11] So, in terms of business stuff I would love to thank new patron. I’m going to guess that your first name Lane, Lane Anderson? or Leanne Anderson. Thank you. Thank you so much for your patronage. I really, really appreciate it. It means that I get to sit in this chair. And write those essays for you all and answer those questions that are for the mini episodes. It’s like the one that came out, I believe it was yesterday or the day before as this episode goes out. So thank you all patrons. You can always go look at my Patron levels, over  patreon.com/rachael and all else is well here. I’m just, I’m moving through my days and getting a lot of writing down as much as I can. And I hope that you are getting some writing done. If you’re not, go over to, HowDoYouWrite.net and tell me why, if you are go over there and tell me why I never get comments over there on my show with Jay, The Writer’s Well, we get so many comments, sometimes almost a hundred on a post on my show. I never asked for them and that’s fine. You don’t have to come over there, reach me anywhere that I am online. I am often on Twitter. I’m always in my email. So hit me up. Tell me how you are doing, because people don’t believe this, but I am actually very, very interested to know how you are doing with your writing. That is important to me. 

So yeah. Follow me on Twitter. Follow me on Instagram. I love Instagram. I’m just, I think I’m just RachaelHerron over there. So come follow me over there. Let’s connect. Tell me how you’re doing. Happy writing and enjoy this awesome interview. 

[00:08:52] Do you wonder why you’re not getting your creative work done? Do you make a plan to write and then fail to follow through? Again? Well, my sweet friend, maybe you’d get a lot out of my Patreon. Each month, I write an essay on living your creative life as a creative person, which is way different than living as a person who’ve been just Netflix 20 hours a week and I have lived both of those ways, so I know. You can get each essay and access to the whole back catalog of them for just a dollar a month. Which is an amount that really truly helps support me at this here writing desk. If you pledge the $3 level, you’ll get motivating texts for me that you can respond to. And if you pledge at the $5 a month level, you get to ask me questions about your creative life, that I’ll answer in the mini episodes. So basically I’m your mini coach. Go to patreon.com/Rachael (R A C H A E L) to get these perks and more. And thank you so much. 

Rachael Herron: [00:09:52] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, Ivuoma Okoro.  How- Hi Ivuoma. I don’t know why I said it. How, how are you Ivuoma? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:10:01] I’m doing well, Rachael, thank you so much for having me. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:03] Of course. You’ll notice with this podcast, if we make mistakes, I don’t worry about it because life happens. I rarely edit the show. Let me give a little introduction for you so people know who you are. Ivuoma Okoro is the writer, producer and performer of the narrative fiction podcast, Vega: A Sci-Fi Adventure! The show is stylized storytelling, where she, as a colorful narrator, talks to listeners directly as she leads them through the tail of a bounty huntress of the fantasy future. After launching the show in late 2018, they go won “Best Writing of a New Spoken Word Production” and “Best Performance of a New Spoken Word” in the 2019 Audioverse Awards. Congratulations on that! In addition to that, Ivuoma was invited to speak on Film Independent’s 2019 panel for narrative podcasts called “Narrative Podcasts: Stories & Sound” in the spring of that year. While most of her writing efforts are focused on the podcast, Ivuoma practices prose fiction through a bi-weekly newsletter and ultimately dreams of making her way into television animation. That is such a cool bio. And when we were introduced, I was like, yes, I have to talk to you because you are like, no one else I have talked to on this whole show. I’ve talked to writers and poets and some artists, I think one graphic novelist, but what you’re doing in terms of writing, production and dissemination is like this new frontier, you’re really, I know, and I know people are doing it, but not very many people are doing it and not many people are doing it really well and winning awards for it. So I would love to know just before we jump into your process, how did I get into this?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:11:42] How did I get into this? So I, I did kind of start off more so what I feel like is what many people move to LA doing? So, I wanted to write features and then I heard all the jobs are in TV. So I thought, okay, I need to write violets and write a spec thing and try to get a job in TV. And very quickly, I don’t know. I just don’t have the stamina for asking people to for permission to make things, or even just read my things? You know, like I would finish the script. I’m so excited about it. And then I could find one person to read in that and that person’s like, “Wow, you’re really talented.” And then they like, they’re ghosts, they just disappear, you know? And so I, I got to a place where I was like, I, you know, I think the story, this whole story that my podcast is about, it’s, it’s a really big world. So I’m like kind of like, I hope to be like an epic sort of like fantasy sci-fi sort of thing. So I just realized a better medium might’ve been a novel anyway. So I thought, great do it by myself, you know. Don’t have to worry about many things for a while. In terms of getting people to read it, I can just focus on craft. So that’s what I did. And then I heard a really awesome show, audio fiction called a Bubble. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:58] Never heard of that one

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:12:59] And then Yeah, it’s, it’s, it was one of those ones that it had like a big cast. Like I had heard of a couple of the actors they’d been in, like, one of them was like in parks and rec, like it just had a cast that I was like oh, I’m gonna check this out. And so I did, and I really enjoyed it. I think I had heard a couple of audio fiction things before or audio plays and I had trouble following it along because they, the ones that I had heard really depended on sound design to like take you through

Rachael Herron: [00:13:29] Yes. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:13:30] So I’m like, I don’t know where I am anymore, like the sound design in, I dunno, who’s speaking, a lot of these characters’ sound kind of similar, but this show, Bubble was really great cause it had a narrator and it kind of to read the scene directions. And so I thought, Oh, maybe my story can be that. And so I recorded a couple of test episodes, and I really enjoyed it. It brought together a lot of skills that I already have. I studied it as a, a performer in theater in college. And so I thought, Oh, well this kind of melds a lot of things that I already really like to do. And it’s been awesome. I am so glad, like getting to connect with people, people like connecting with the audience directly, like not needing anybody to tell me I can make things like it’s been, it’s been awesome.

Rachael Herron: [00:14:15] This is one that I’m going to listen to with my wife, because she’s really, really good at listening to audio drama and I kind of get caught up sometimes in what you were reading, like where’s the, where’s the, where’s the sound, what is it doing? What is happening? And she’s kind of translating that for me. And she gets super into that audio dramas. So what is your writing process? What does it look like? Where do you get it done? How do you do it? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:14:41] Pretty much it. So my writing process, I would say I’m not a coffee shop girl, though I wish I could be. I like the community atmosphere, but I kind of need to be alone.

Rachael Herron: [00:14:52] Oh that’s kind of perfect. Right?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:14:54] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:14:55] Coffee shop writers are dying and I have been practicing with this.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:14:58] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it kind of works out, but so what that ends up looking like, is me getting up really early when it feels like nobody else exists and writing and hopefully, I mean, I would say like, I like to write like in an ideal world where I didn’t have a schedule for other things, like get up at like 4:30-5, right. Till like, like 9, have breakfast, right, again, till lunch have lunch and then write a little bit. So maybe like total of like six or so hours a day. And when I, when I write, when I’m really into it, like when I’m in a draft, so right now, I’ve been focusing on getting the podcast out and relaunching that soon, but when I’m in a draft, I, I need to work every day or at least every weekday. And then I like to take the weekends off. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:43] Yeah.  So when you say you like on like a perfect day, you’d get up at like 4:30 or 5, is that when your eyes pop open or is this something that you set like an alarm for, to do?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:15:51] Oh I’m definitely 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:53] Okay

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:15:55] That makes me feel so much fun. Yeah but like once you’re, I feel like once you’re like two weeks in, it does feel like your eyes will pop open on that first alarm ring. As opposed to being like dragging yourself out of bed. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:07] I used to get up routinely at like 4 or 4:30 just cause I had to write before I went to work and I remember like that feeling of the alarm going off and you just don’t think. You put your feet on the floor and you stand up and then by the time you’re at your desk, you’re in the mood.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:19] Yeah, 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:20] But if you have one thought- I don’t know if you have this, but if I had one thought like could I stay in bed? then you’re doomed. You just have to put the feet on the floor first.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:28] Yeah. That, that happens to me. So that’s why I say I get up at 4:30 or 5 because I’m okay with a snooze, and I’m like, if I, if I have the time, if it’s, if it’s before work, then I’m like, I, I have to get my three hours done, you know. But. Yeah, I’m with you there. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:44] So what is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:47] My biggest challenge? It’s kind of funny to say this as a fiction writer, but I think it’s plot. I think it’s plotting. I feel like- 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:53] Me too! I am the exact same. I hate pot. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:56] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:58] It’s terrible. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:16:59] Yeah, for me, like emotional journeys and, themes, really get my mind going like that like I could tell you what the theme is, you know, like if her character starts out like dutiful and loyal and they’re going to need to learn to be you know, more spontaneous so that I can tell you, like how they’ll feel when they’re challenged with these new circumstances. And I can even like, see their faces. Like it’s really clear to me the inner journey, but when it comes to answering the question, like what happens, it’s really hard for me to just like, come up with like, a sequential logical plot that gets them there. So yeah, I find that really challenging and I feel like I come to this place where I’m like throwing things out and I’ll have people read it. And I’m like, is this work is, is this good enough? Is this passing enough plot wise for you to understand the emotions? Like it almost doesn’t matter to me what happens as long as they feel a certain way 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:52] That you can move them through their emotions, right. So, how do you generate, how do you generate plot ideas? And I’m really asking for myself, cause I’ve always, I have a, I have a good friend, Adrienne Bell who wrote The Plot MD. She’s like the plot doctor and she’ll sit down and like, you’ll say, I have a story about a man who feels this way. And she goes, well, he could be working here. And then this happens. And then like, like plot just pours out of her. And I get so jealous. Like, so how do you generate your ideas? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:23] Gosh, I wish I kind of, I’m going to read that book. You say that she had a book?

Rachael Herron: [00:18:27] Yeah. The Plot MD. Yeah 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:28] The Plot MD. Yeah, I’m going to read that because I need that. I feel like I’m still trying to work it out. I feel like something that’s really helped me. So I, I did mention it in the, in the bio that you mentioned at the beginning of the episode, these like short stories

Rachael Herron: [00:18:44] Yeah

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:45] As a, as a bi-weekly newsletter, which I haven’t been so diligent about lately 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:48] Wow with all short story, but like, even

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:18:52] Yeah. So I saw it, so I want, I was trying to get into this habit of writing just plot for these stories. Cause you don’t have time to really get into like

Rachael Herron: [00:19:00] Great idea

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:19:01] the whole journey. Yeah. So it was just like, okay, this happens, that happens. Cause what I started realizing when, when, so my podcast is called Vega. And so like when Vega was doing well, I was hearing from a couple people and they’re like, Hey, can you pitch us things? And I just couldn’t, I don’t know. Like, it was really hard to like, they’re like what happens? I’m like, okay. So like, this is the theme, you know, so I, I thought maybe doing short stories will really helped me just like focus on this happens, that happens. And that happens and I can create a little bit of emotion out of that, but mostly about like things happening. But I think probably the biggest book that was helpful for me was this book called The Art of Dramatic Writing. Have you heard of that one by-

Rachael Herron: [00:19:40] Ooh. But I’m gonna write it down. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:19:42] Yeah, it’s, it’s a great one. It’s by this guy named Lajos Egri (E G R I) and it’s really about playwriting but it’s applicable for all kinds of writing. Cause all kinds of writing, like the basis of it is drama. So that one was really good and he was all about having a premise, which is a thing like, you know poverty leads to ruin or whatever you’re thinking, be anything, whatever you believe, and then having each thing that happens in your narrative, justify or prove that premise.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:16] I love that. I’m always trying to tell that to students and I’ve never managed to say it that succinctly before. That makes total sense. Yeah, I’ve been, the listeners will know that I’ve been struggling a lot with that. I wrote this thriller that is, that really turned out to be an emotional novel. And my editor just kept saying, okay, but can you make it a thriller? Because you know you need the dramatic tension. You need that motion. So let me ask you about these short stories. Do you think that it has helped? With your, your plot to help your plot?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:20:46] I- I do. I think now that I know, I think it was pitching that really made me realize my plotting was weak as a, as a muscle, and I, and I’ve always known, like I would get, I would have a really strong idea of the beginning, have a very strong notion about the big exact ending moment, but everything in between, I don’t know. So I think that’s what led me to get that book, The Art Dramatic Writing because I would get so lost. And so I, I do think it is helpful, or that it has been helpful for me to think about what happens. And I think too, every time that I’ve switched mediums, so I started off, you know, writing features and then I, I was like, okay, I’ll write pilots. And then I started writing this, this pilot as a novel, and now I’m in audio fiction, like understanding what each medium needs and understanding in audio, if you’re writing an adventure people want to know what happens. They’re, they’re listening to see like what happens. Though audio is a great space too for just like talking to a person, you know, like hearing thoughts. But I do want it to feel like, Oh, this is moving along. So I think, I think all those things, you know, and the short stories are different medium. I think each of those things have taught me, yeah, like how do I move the story along? And what are the kind of beats I need to hit? I do think it’s helpful. So I need to be consistent with it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:10] That’s the hardest part. I send a weekly letter of encouragement to writers and I don’t think I’ve sent it in like eight weeks, so you know that’s, the times are strange. I’m sorry. I’m so stuck on these, these short stories. How long are they normally? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:22:22] I would say I, my goal is 400 to 500 words. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:27] That, how do you do that? That’s so short

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:22:30] I know. Well, so, so the, so the premise for it is like it’s I call it the short story machine and it’s like give me a Facebook comment or like a headline and I’ll like, make a short story about it. So like the first one, the, the Facebook comment was like, if I say Candyman three times, will he appear and like keep me company during quarantine basically. So, I wrote a little story about that. So it starts off with a very like small premise. And so I think that’s what helps me keep them come shorter 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:07] That’s so cool

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:23:08] And just like expounding a little bit on that, on that little word. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:10] I am immediately subscribing to your newsletter. So, no, no, no pressure. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:23:18] My biggest joy, I would say I am a huge fan of that quote. I forget who says it. I think most people have been accredited, but the quote that goes “No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.” Have you heard that?

Rachael Herron: [00:23:30] No, I, I’ve heard it, but I, I, it sounds vaguely familiar. So let me think about it. “No tears in the writer. No tears in the reader.” Yeah, that makes sense. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:23:37] Yeah. So it’s this idea of, if you’re writing something and it’s boring to you, it’s going to be boring for everybody else. And if you’re writing something and you’re moved by it, or you’re like, man, this really captures what I was trying to say, or you know, I, I feel like anytime. And it doesn’t happen often, but anytime I’m able to write something and I feel like, this is what I wanted to say. Or it makes me feel emotional or I’m going over and over because I’m like, I feel so bad for this character right, I feel so good for this character. Those are times where I feel like, I feel like man I’m meant to do this. Whereas in other times I feel like, you know, kind of like what I was saying with plotting. Is this working, I’m throwing it out, hoping people like it. But I feel like those moments where I, it, it moves me when I, when I write something or times where I feel like, okay. This is, I feel purposeful. I’m supposed to be doing this. I know that if I feel this way, other people will feel something. And so I feel like those are pretty joyous moments for me. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:39] Oh, that’s delicious. I love that feeling. I love that. What can you share a craft tip of any sort with us? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:24:46] Craft tip. I would say the biggest thing that I’ve learned, especially doing sci-fi fantasy world building all this kind of stuff, is do research. I did, I under miss- I underestimated the power of research, for a long time. And then I 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:01] I am still underestimating it. Like, I just don’t like research. Tell, tell me more about this. How did you, how did you learn, you did this, especially for something that you’re really, you know, you’re making up

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:25:12] Yeah. You’re making up. Yeah. Everybody thinks, oh, you can just make your own rules or whatever, but the best science fiction and yet, I mean, you can go ahead, you can see this in examples, countless classic examples, whether it’s fantasy or science fiction. It’s based on something real, like it’s based on no world war one, or you just like something like. So I think I really started to understand this when I was first crafting Vega as a novel and I’m sure, you know, novels take a lot of- like a lot, there’s a lot that goes into them. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:42] So much!

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:25:43] You have to think about everything about this world. Yeah. And so I was having a lot of trouble, like even visualizing, what do they wear? Like what did they eat and why? What’s, what, what are the rules of their religion and all this kind of stuff. And so I started, you know, doing research on like science, I think like all of like one of the gods are the ones that, the one that my main character believes in is like based off of like electricity and the rules of like thermodynamics and all this kind of stuff. So it’s like, once you are able to, you know, like there’s like whole fields of research about these things, you know? So if you’re like, it will to do that, it becomes this creative springboard for you. Like, okay, well, if the electrons are moving in this way, maybe when they’re doing their ritual, they move in that same way, you know,

Rachael Herron: [00:26:28] That’s so cool

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:26:29] You can just base these things off of other things and do less work for yourself and just pulling things out of thin air. So I feel like once I realized that I was, or like once I was able to do a certain level of research, it basically wrote itself like 70% of the world was kind of there.

Rachael Herron: [00:26:44] Wow. So how do you, how do you restrict yourself to not getting lost down the rabbit hole of research? And I know a lot of writers have that problem. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:26:52] Yeah. So, I mean, I’ve, I’ve heard a lot of writers talk about this idea of, yeah, I think, I don’t know if there’s two kinds of writers, but two things can happen. Like you can get so into building the world and doing the research that you neglect the plot or you, or you can just like see the plot and then do as much research as you need to continue writing. I kind of fall into the second one. I was telling you earlier, like themes and characters are really what drive me. And I, I think I’m like this in general, once I know enough about it, I’m good. I can like leave that and go back to the story and kind of fill in the cracks that I know are showing. And then kind of move on from there. So I think it’s really about, like, I think research for research’s sake is fun, but that’s not writing. And so yeah, if you want to get back to your novel, knowing what the plot is and knowing okay, they’re going to move through this area and this area is based off of this country and then do research on that country and just enough for you to keep on writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:51] To inspire you to- to get new ideas to, to fill in. Let me ask you quickly about theme too, because I know that it’s a word that sometimes panics right? New writers. What is, what is your theme? Do you mind me asking for a Vega? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:28:03] Yeah. So my, so my premise, according to, Mr. Egri in our dramatic writing is that, active doubt leads to deeper understanding.

Rachael Herron: [00:28:14] That’s gorgeous. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:28:15] Yeah. So it’s just this idea that, so it’s like a, it’s like a faith-based world that they live in. Like they have these beliefs that are really extreme. And so as I, as, as you mentioned at the beginning my character is a bounty huntress, but she, her, her nation and they, they employ her to go kill off like the world’s biggest criminals, but like, she, she kills them, you know? And like, they’re like trying to purify the earth, but she’s a killer, you know? And so it’s this idea of, she comes to a point where she’s like, is this right?

Rachael Herron: [00:28:45] Right

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:28:46] Is this what I do? You know, so she has doubts and that those doubts as painful as they are lead her to question things and those questions lead to a deeper understanding as she gets more answers. So, yeah, that’s kind of like the overarching theme of the whole narrative. And so every, every conversation, every fight every, hopefully plot point leads to further developing, like, okay, if she’s the only one who’s actively doubting things, she’s the one who will grow in her understanding 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:16] and then perhaps to see other people starting to doubt or learning how to doubt almost in this faith-based society. The thing I love about this theme is that it is not a common one. How some themes repeat and, you know, we pull from them a lot and you know, like a lot of my books are written around the same theme. Cause I go back to my core story over and over again, but that is a really unique and beautiful one. Right.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:29:37] Thank you. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:38] Thank you for sharing. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:29:39] What is your core story? 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:41] My core theme is that; true family is chosen. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:29:46] I want that. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:48] it’s good. Isn’t it? But even, even when I set out to write a story with a different theme, by the end of the first draft, god damn it. I’m back at it again. But that’s okay, right? Because I believe and I prove with my own life. And I’m attracted to those kinds of books and stories and movies. So 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:30:05] and there’s so many ways to tell that story. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:07] Exactly, you and I could tell- anybody watching, sorry, I have a hair in my eye. We could have the same premise and you would write, we could have the same plot premise and have two separate themes. Your theme versus my theme and we will come up with completely different books, completely different stories. And that’s, what’s really exciting to me about theme.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:30:28] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:30:29] Especially when we go into revision. I think we have to have to have it first draft, I think can play but into revision. I love theme. It was delicious. What thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way? 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:30:42] This one’s a hard one. I don’t know if it’s surprising, but I definitely like if there’s any relational disharmony, any, anything going on, like, even if it’s like somebody didn’t text me back and I’m like, are they mad? Like I just, yeah. I feel like that’s not surprising. Cause it’s, it’s just like how we are, you know, like, writing happens in your head, and all this other thing happen in your head. And so it’s hard to separate those things. So when everything is smooth, it’s very easy for me to focus on, on what I need to do in terms of getting stuff down on paper.

Rachael Herron: [00:31:16] But I wonder also if that is something to do with your emotional intelligence, which you bring to the book, you know, you’ve already said that you understand the emotions of your characters and perhaps when you are in a place of limited understanding about the emotions of the people that you care about that throws you off a little bit.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:31:32] Yeah 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:33] Because I don’t, I don’t care. Like she’s mad at me, she needs to tell me later and I’m going to write, you know,

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:31:38] Yeah. That- I wish I had that power, but I think you have a point about that. Yeah, cause I do, I, I love talking about emotional behavior. I love understanding how people click. I said, I was, I said earlier I was an actress. I think that was a large part of it. Like, why does this character act this way? If I find out, then I can understand them and act like them, you know, like I think, I think there’s something to that 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:01] and that’s, there’s an undercurrent of empathy that you probably bring to everything. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:32:05] Yeah. I like the thought though.

Rachael Herron: [00:32:10] What is the best book that you’ve read recently? And why did you love it?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:32:13] In the same vein, my, the book that I think I’ve read recently that was really powerful, it was called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:26] Because I’m in recovery and I was already thinking adult children of alcoholics often have this kind of emotional response to other people’s emotional responses. So there’s probably similar. Tell us again, The Children of Emotionally, what?

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:32:38] Immature Parents. Yeah. It’s, it’s probably similar. It’s this, it’s this kind of thing, I read it and it told me my entire emotional experience in my childhood and I was like, this is why, like all these other you know, personality tests and all these things that kind of get, get at it? But I think this book really got to the core of things. And I think the reason I loved it so much again, is I love understanding behavior. There, there many things I do that I don’t understand why I did that or why I feel this way. So growing in my knowledge of like why people behave the way they do anything that can open up that field of mystery for me is something that I want to read. So I read a lot of like nonfiction, social behavior, sociology, behavioral science books, and yeah, that was one personally for me that, yeah, it was like five years of therapy. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:30] That’s awesome. Also, I love these books because the, and you know, it can be seen as naval gazing. And I always feel like I’m naval gazing, but the more I understand myself, and the more I figured this stuff out, the better we are at understanding our characters, right. This is part of our job. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:33:45] A 100% agree. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:46] That’s so cool. Okay, so tell us now where we can find you out in the world and especially where we can find Vega and where we can subscribe to your newsletter list.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:33:55] Yes. Okay. So you can find Vega on any pod-catcher. Well not any, but most of the big ones, iTunes, Spotify, Google, Vega podcast. Oh, sorry, Vega: A Sci-Fi Adventure Podcast, exclamation point. 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:09] I like the exclamation point.

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:11] Yeah. Cause it’s an adventure! And then you can find that show on Twitter @VegaPodcast and you can also find it on Instagram. There you can find me on Instagram(IvuomaOkoro) and Twitter @IvuomaOkoro. I’ll be there and you can find the newsletter at Ivuomatellsstories.com 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:35] Awesome. And Ivuoma spelled I-V-U-O-M-A 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:38] That’s it. Yeah.

Rachael Herron: [00:34:40] Thank you Ivuoma it has been such a treat and a delight to find you. And now, you know, this is why I do the show is because now I can go out and suck you and follow everything you do. So, you know,

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:50] I will do the same. 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:54] You’re, you’re more interesting than I am. I can guarantee you that. Thank you Ivuoma, so much. 

Ivuoma Okoro: [00:34:59] Thank you, Rachael. 

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.

In this bonus episode, Rachael answers your questions, including: 

• Should you hire an editor before sending out agent queries? 
• What are some great memoirs and why should writers read them? 
• Do I need specialized tax help as a writer? 

Don’t miss Ines Johnson’s writer’s channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClivO7XAP2GCRRz-7Bm3Nhw

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing.

Join Rachael’s Slack channel, Onward Writers!

 Transcript

Rachael Herron: Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

[00:00:15] Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode #194 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. This is a mini-sode! This is brought to you by Patreon subscribers who get to ask me any questions that they want, and I get to answer them for the benefit of all of you. So it’s really kind of a cool system. So thank you to those Patreon supporters who are supporting me at the $5 and up level a month. And I’ve got a collection of some questions here, so let’s get to them. I actually have heard from a couple of you, I will just say in an aside, that you really like the mini episodes. It is possible that one of you, just tunes in for those and not for the interviews, which is kind of really nice. It means that you like listening to these answers from me. And I like having the time and the space and the ability to do so. So thanks for listening. Okay. Let’s jump in. 

[00:01:13] This is from May. Hello, May! She says, okay, I have another question. So I’m doing my first round of edits on my first novel. Still cannot believe I wrote a whole novel. Yes, you did. And I can’t help, but think about the next steps. I know I want to at least attempt getting an agent and do traditional publishing. Should I hire an editor to go over my manuscript before I start sending it out? Should I just polish it as much as I can and then send it? I know most publishers will have their own editor before publishing. How do I go from cleaned and polished draft to a draft that is ready for an agent to fall in love with?

[00:01:48] I’m so glad you asked this because I get asked this in every single class I teach, it comes up all the time. How do you know if this manuscript that you’ve spent so much time now revising and revising again, and then doing passes on and then doing cleanups on and then proofreading, and then maybe getting beta readers? Although VBR, very careful with that as I’ve spoken about in the past, be careful with who you ask to beta read any of your work. How do you know if it’s good enough to go out to agents yet? The simple answer is you don’t and that’s okay. The truth is agents know that the submissions they get are not perfect manuscripts, that’s just necessarily so. The most agents, I would say most agents I’ve ever met I know there are some who don’t do this, but most agents guys are willing to work with writers or want to write work with our writers on edits before taking them out and attempting to sell them to the traditional publishing world. My agent did that. And in fact, I was one of those people that her picking me up as a client was contingent upon my agreeing to do the edits that she suggested.

[00:03:09] Should you do that? Absolutely. You should do that if, and only if you agree with the changes that the agent wants you to make, if you don’t, if she’s trying to turn your book into a book that is not your book, then you run away and you don’t have to worry about this at all. But I loved the suggestions that Susanna gave me and I took them and we have been in business together for almost 13 years now. So that is absolutely fine. You can send out a not quite perfect manuscript to an agent. And when I say not quite perfect, it is as perfect as you can make it by yourself. You don’t look at it and say, this is not quite perfect. You look at it and you say, this is the best I can do. This is the best it’s ever going to be. The last sentence is a lie. It will be better because you will have editing. Feel free to send out at this stage, if you can’t figure out what else to do to make this book stronger, you’re ready to send it to agents. There is however, an optional route you can take, between your book being done, to the best of your ability and sending it to an agent, you can hire a developmental editor to make sure that your story structure, that your character arcs, that everything developed mental in the book is the best it can be.

[00:04:25] This is not the time you’d ever hire a copy editor. A copy editor is a much lower level of editor. And they’re just looking for typos and sentences that are confusing. The developmental editor is the one you’re really worried about. An agent understand that your work is going to have copy yet. It’s going to have errors in it because it hasn’t been copyedited yet. But choosing to hire a developmental editor to help you at that high 30,000-foot level, before you send to an agent, can be useful, especially if it’s a first book and you just can’t- can’t see, see the forest for the trees that are, you know, jammed in around you- kind of sticking you in the middle of this forest. That can be a really good way to go. It is however, not inexpensive. It is- it costs quite a bit of money to do that kind of edit and it doesn’t have to be done. Just let me make that very clear. It does not have to be done. If your book is as good as you can get it, send it out to agents and feel good about it. If you want your book to be a little bit better before you do that, hire an editor, where do you hire and developmental editor? I always recommend Reedsy.com (R E E D S Y.com) because all of their editors are vetted. Most of them come out of traditional publishing and I have had so many students and clients be absolutely thrilled with the edits that they have received from there.

[00:05:49] So that is what I suggest about that. Let me make sure I got all of your questions. You said, should I hire an editor to go over my manuscript before sending it out? Only you can make that decision there’s no should, there’s no should not. If you think your book needs to be stronger and you just can’t see how, yes, hire an editor. Yes, and then of course, when your agent sells your book to a traditional publisher, then you’ll get an editor and that editor will work with you on the actual big edits. So that always comes with any publisher that you’re ever going to sell a book to your editor will be assigned. You will probably meet your editor before you even sell your book to them, or at least meet them on the phone and talk about this kind of edits that they want. Again, they’re accepting your book. They’re buying your book from you, through your agent may be contingent upon you doing those edits that this editor wants you to do. And again, do it if you want to. Only do it if you want to. 

[00:06:53] But do keep an open mind, your book, which is so perfect right now, it can get a lot better. They always, always, always can with the help of outside editors. So, excellent, excellent question. Let’s see, Thoulma says. What are two or three of your all-time favorite memoirs from the craft slash execution point of view and why? What can aspiring writers learn from them?

[00:07:21] I absolutely love and this is going to sound so trite and clichéd but The Glass Castle. The Glass Castle had been pushed on me for so many years that I just, she wasn’t going to read it. You know, when you kind of get that knee jerk. Nah, I don’t want to kind of think the only reason I read The Glass Castle is because a student in a memoir class at Stanford, challenged me. I had been talking about story structure about the inciting incident, about the context shifting midpoint, about the dark moment, about all the things that go in between those things. And she challenged me and she said, I don’t think The Glass Castle follows that. So I read it over the weekend. That weekend and it follows it so perfectly, they’re not even approximately at the right areas. I brought in my book with post-its inciting incident was at 20%. The context shifting midpoint was like at 49.5%. Everything was perfect. And the book is so beautifully executed and so well written. I really, really love it. 

[00:08:26] Another one that I really love is called Priestdaddy it’s by Patricia Lockwood, Priestdaddy. The reason I love it is it is almost poetic in the way it is written. She is much looser at hitting those story structure elements. Although they’re in there, they’re just suggested like the fragrance of them and her writing is so incredibly strong and so funny and deep and poetic. I can recommend that one more to kind of show the elevated writing that can go with a very sturdy feet-on-the-ground piece of prose. And the third one I’d recommend is one that kind of, kind of shows the humor that can be found in memoir. I love Eve Schaub’s book, A Year of No Clutter. Year of No Clutter. It is basically her attempt to con Marie a room in her house, which is very large and basically held everything. And the book is about decluttering that room and it does not have the final ending that you would expect. She’s a really beautiful writer. She’s been on the show actually. You may want to go back and listen to that. And she just gets how to wrap her arms around, a project memoir or as many people call them a stunt memoir. When you give yourself a challenge and then write about it. So I would recommend those. You will not lose anything by reading those, you will in fact, learn so much and you’ll enjoy them.

[00:10:02] Let’s see, which book do you recommend for getting a good understanding of AA slash NA alcoholics anonymous and narcotics anonymous, and the process of addiction recovery. I’m researching the subject for my upcoming book. So for me, I would recommend, what we call the 12 and 12, which is the 12 steps and 12 traditions of AA. It’s a slim book, and it goes over all of the 12 steps that are in alcoholics anonymous. Don’t worry about the traditions part. You won’t need that, but the 12 steps at the b- the first half of that book really kind of break down how they work without having to go to what we called the big book, the big blue book of the book of alcoholics anonymous. It is hard to read it’s archaically written. It’s completely a product of the patriarchy. There are amazing things in it. This I know, however, is not the place that you want to be., if you just kind of want to get the understanding of recovery. 

[00:11:11] Let’s see. There’s another good book called Living Sober. That is, kind of little vignettes of day to day living. What else do I really like? Oh, I remember what I think you would probably like maybe pick up The Three Daily Meditation books for AA/NA, and Alanon, AA is just for today. AA is daily reflections and for Alanon, which is for people who are, who love people in recovery or in addiction is called the courage to change. And each one of those has a daily reading with usually a quote and a reflection and it kind of all three of those books really get into the heart of the matter of what it is to be in recovery from an addiction. And to almost, I kind of know a little bit about what you’re doing with your book that you’re writing. And let me just say, I cannot wait to read it. Let me know if you have any other questions about that. But those are books I would recommend right off the top of my head. We can go deeper if you want to just email me. 

[00:12:21] And then lastly, this is from Ines Johnson who is also on the show. She’s fantastic. Ines says, Hey Rachael! I have a question. What should a writer look for in a financial planner slash tax accountant? I took a look at my midyear income and hooray! it looks like I’m moving on up to a new tax bracket. Congratulations, Ines. The kind where I can’t TurboTax my filing anymore. I need a human person’s knowledge cause my smarts aren’t going to cut it any longer, but I don’t know what questions to ask a money person or what to look for any advice? Yes, I do have advise, so doing the taxes for a creative person, for a person running a creative business. It’s different from a lot of other businesses and tax accountants, financial planner, financial planners have to understand that not only are our jobs a little bit different and that we can write off different things depending on what job we’re in, but it really helps if they understand the creative process. So this is a blatant plug for my tax accountant, who I absolutely love with all my heart. Her name is Katie Reid. She will file your taxes from wherever you are in United States, you don’t have to be here. But the reason I love her is I just randomly Googled a tax preparation place when I got my first deal and I went to them and she happened to be the one doing my taxes. And let me explain this: Katie gets excited on February 1st of every year, the same way that we get excited when a book is released. She is so happy that tax season has opened. She knows everything about it. And I was her first writer. Or maybe her second writer, but I was really early in her collecting creatives to work with.

[00:14:18] And she leaped into that challenge to figure out what it was I needed. The other thing is, is that, Oh, I think for the first five or so years that I went to her, I didn’t have anything like on an Excels spreadsheet. I didn’t have anything written down. I had a shoe box of tax receipts, that I, or, you know, have receipts that I would bright and handwrite into a notebook, a spiral bound notebook, where I kept all of my money information. And I would literally photocopy pages in this handwritten spiral bound notebook. And Katie thought it was charming. She thought, it was just the best. And in fact, I used to be so excited to do my taxes with her. That for many years, I tried to get February 1st, her very first appointment so that we could get excited together. This was a little bit pre me being in the self-publishing world. In self-publishing world, I got in around 2011, 2012, and there are so many 10-99’s that come, and they come so late. Sometimes you’ll get your 10-99 mid-February or end of February, even though you’re supposed to have them by January 30th. That I just couldn’t keep doing that with Katie. Now I usually go see her in March or April. But what happened with Katie is that she left that agency. And she had a baby, started a family. And I went back to that agency a couple of times, couple years, hated who I worked with because they weren’t Katie. Stalked Katie, found her on Facebook and asked, can you please do my taxes for me? And she said, yes. And over the course of the last five or six, seven years, she has turned that request into basically a full time gig that she runs from her own home. 

[00:16:03] That’s my dog shaking in the background – and she allows us, me and a couple of friends to come to her house where she does her taxes, me and Sophie Littlefield and Juliette Blackwell every year, go to Katie’s house, we do our taxes together. So Katie takes each one of us into her office for about an hour each, sometimes less cause she’s so fast. And she does them in front of us while she’s talking about what sewing project she’s doing and about her kid or about our next book, she’s typing things in. She turns to us and said, well, your refund is this much or you owe this much to the IRS by the time we walk out and the person who is getting the biggest refund or who owes the least to the IRS pays for lunch, and then we all go out to lunch. But Katie’s actually done things like tax parties where the same thing happens.

[00:16:57] Somebody has a hot party in the house and everybody’s hanging out, having fun while one person at a time is getting their taxes done. She’s incredible. She has so many writers now in her stable, I would say dozens of writers in her stable. She really knows what she’s talking about. And I know that I’m selling a friend here and she has everything. One year Lala, my wife and I got hit with a $29,000 tax bill from the IRS. It was the year that, we were married legally in California, but the feds still didn’t see gay marriage as legal and it was this huge disconnect. There was literally one person at the IRS who understood gay taxes. Katie had to get him on the phone and explain the tax code and the tax law to him. I am not exaggerating. They went ahead and canceled that $29,000 tax bill because the IRS had done it wrong. And Katie had set them straight about their own rules. 

[00:17:51] So, where do you find this Katie? Katie, I hope you don’t mind that I’m announcing to the world where you can be found. But she is katie@done.tax. (K A T I E @ D O N E.tax) You can look her up at done.tax, that’s her, she’s phenomenal. I can’t recommend her highly enough. And also, Ines let’s just take a moment and step back and really luxuriate in the fact that you need this, that you need this help. I recommend getting this kind of help whenever you feel a little bit wobbly about your taxes, about your planning. I love having somebody that you know, right now it’s August as I record this, I can send. And I should do this probably this week or next. I’ll send her what I’ve made for the whole year and what I’ve put aside to pay for taxes. And she tells me whether it’s going to be enough. She helps me with my estimated taxes when I get around to paying them. She’s just on call and she’s fantastic. So let’s see. Oh, and Ines says, I’ve been posting on YouTube videos since we talked, because we were talking about her launching a YouTube video for writer’s channel, and she’s already up to 200 plus subscribers. So I will link to her YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClivO7XAP2GCRRz-7Bm3Nhw) in the show notes of this episode @HowDoYouWrite.net.

[00:19:14] Speaking of HowDoYouWrite.net, you should come over and you should leave comment. Also, I promised that I’d be keeping my eye on reviews since I asked for them. And there’s unknown review of over at iTunes for How Do You Write, and this one is from Giana Floyd. Hi, Giana. She says five stars! A must-listen. When I envisioned myself as a famous author someday, I make sure Rachael is my best friend. Oh my God I love this. I actually didn’t read it before I started reading it out loud. Her advice, vulnerability, and interviews have me checking my podcast app every Friday, sometimes before coffee. And if that statement doesn’t convince you that this podcast is a must listen, nothing will. Giana, you don’t have to wait until you’re a famous author to be my best friend. Let’s be best friends now. Plus, I’m not a famous author, I’m just a, an author with a lot of books and some readers. And I think that’s really what I love being. So thank you for this incredible, wonderful five-star review. Please go over to any of your podcasts, your apps, and leave a review or a star rating or something like that.

[00:20:21] It helps with discoverability and I really appreciate it too. And its fun to go look for them when I remember. So that clears out my backlog of questions. So if you are a Patreon subscriber at the $5 and up level, please lay some on me. You cannot give me too many questions. This is a mini, bonus episode, because when I get those questions, it’s a bonus episode. So please send them to me. I can’t wait to answer them. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for supporting and from the bottom of my heart, Thank you so much for writing. When you are writing, even when you’re thinking about writing, you are changing the world one word at a time. That is what we do as writers. So I wish you very happy writing and we’ll talk soon, my friend.

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.