Archives for February 2020

Rachael shares her personal opinions on what happened with the RWA implosion, and what has to happen next. 

Mentioned: https://twitter.com/RomancingNope/status/1211025913128902657

Transcript

Rachael Herron: Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron, and this is a bonus episode brought to you directly by my $5 Patreons. If you’d like me to be your mini coach for less than a large mocha Frappuccino, you can join too at www.patreon.com/rachael 

Well, hello writers. Welcome to episode number 161 of, “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. This is a bonus mini episode, and this is being recorded on the last day of the decade, December 31st, 2020 and I am coming to you on this day because, the first episode of the year, I always do my yearly Roundup of what I made, and I just do not have the time to do that. So I want to get this, um, podcast out.

I will not get the yearly Roundup out until next week because tomorrow on the first, I am going away for eight days to Seton Hill, which is a fantastic master’s program in commercial fiction, and I’m going to be teaching there. So that’s going to be wonderful. But I won’t have time to do that podcast for a little while.

So I wanted to hold you over with this mini podcast in which I normally answer patreons’ questions. I’ve got some patreons questions, they’re all queued up, but much more important for me today is to talk about the romance writers of America implosion. And I wanted to tell you how I feel about it if you were involved at all, um, and you listened to me, there are, there’s a great chance that you already feel like me. If you have seen reference to this RWA debacle online, uh, you might be aware of it also. But what it means to me, is this: romance writers of America is the organization to whom I credit my success in many, many ways. I learned more from being with them for the first two years of my writing career, then I did get my master’s degree about the business and the craft of writing. Um, it’s mostly women, there are some men, but the people in that community know absolutely everything about writing. They really do. They’re 95% of them, I swear to God, are lawyers. They, uh, know from the top to the bottom what the publishing industry looked like.

When I came in to RWA, it was, we were still mostly in the traditional world. In fact, there were no people self-publishing at that point, except, you know. You know, your uncle, um, that guy was still self-publishing, but back then it was not a viable time to do that this – I came in in 2008. It was just starting, I believe the, uh, Kindle came out that year, so yeah. This was just on the horizon. And in that, in the last 11 years that I’ve been with the organization, um, RWA was pretty standoffish towards self-publishing for a while, and then it realized, oh, yes, of course, this is the way of the future. So now it balances both, um, my best friends in the world, literally have come from RWA. I don’t even write romance anymore, and you know me. I talk really passionately about this organization and how it can help people. I’m active in the organization. I’m on our local board of the San Francisco, uh, area, RWA. Everything I’m going to say on this show is not said from a position of me being on the board. It is me speaking as a writer independently of what our board says or thinks, uh, what happened was, I’m going to try to nutshell it as much as I can. Um, there is a, an awesome writer named Courtney Milan who, um, said something disparaging about another writer’s older book, I think came out sometime in the 90s. She called it a big racist mess. Um, a fucking racist mess.

I think that was what it was. The writer in question, and an editor sent a letter of complaint to the ethics committee at RWA. RWA at that point, I believe, should have looked at the complaint and said, well, what the, Courtney didn’t violate any of these things that they’re saying she violated, except perhaps the one that says, we should be friendly and get along with everybody. And, uh, my belief is it shouldn’t have been read that way. One is allowed in one social media, always to say what one wants. RWA doesn’t police that, or at least they never have up until now. Um, so they, Courtney Milan as an anti-racist activist has done amazing things for RWA. She has worked at the national level, uh, she was the head of the ethics committee. Instead of asking her to recuse herself, they called her and asked her to resign. Uh, which she did so that they could have a conversation over this ethics complaint. They then did not use anybody on the standing ethics committee. They did not tell them there was going to be a new ethics inquiry. They appointed a secret ethics committee, uh, and heard this complaint, that ethics committee recommended to the RWA national board that Courtney, uh, be suspended from RWA for a year, uh, be censured and, um, not issue that she not be able to hold any position of leadership, uh, for the rest of her life in RWA.

This was a terrible thing to do. Uh, but it was voted in by the board. It was 10 to 5 with one abstention, and Courtney was alerted to the fact that she was no longer, she was suspended. She could not act in a supervisor committee, um, position of any kind. And this was spilled on Twitter. Uh, there was no secrecy around it. Courtney had already asked if she could talk about it. Um. And it was, uh, brought to light on December 23rd, and the entire internet basically blew up. It erupted. Everyone has talked about it, the New York times, Nora. Um, it’s literally everywhere. People have been telling me about it. I am actually, I’ve been off of all social media except the Instagram for probably six or eight months, much happier for it. Um, but my wife told me that morning, she says, I think there’s something really bad happening in RWA. And I said, poopoo, whatever, or something, I’m sure there’s something that it can’t be that bad. And I looked and I was like, oh, this is that bad. I do not think that anything they did was right about this. Basically what they did was they said with this decision that they are protecting the feelings of nice white women, and if you speak out against racism in any way, you are then ejected from RWA. So the marginalized writer is not safe, the nice white lady is safe. That has been a problem with RWA forever.

Um, and apparently it, they’re doubling down on it. They’re not doubling down on it. They are quadrupling. They are hundred times-ing down on it. Uh, I am a member of San Francisco area, RWA, we were one of 30 of the 115, I believe, RWA groups that called immediately for the, um, resignation of the president, the president-elect, and the executive director. The president who’s actually in our chapter and is an active anti-racist. Um, she does a great job with diversity, equity and inclusion. However, she was the figurehead at the helm, and she stepped down immediately because that’s what anybody in their sane right mind would do in this position. Um, basically when this level of racism has risen to the top, it’s time to kind of start over. You have to get rid of those people. Uh. What I didn’t say was that that decision was immediate, that the decision that they made about Courtney was immediately rescinded later that day, as RWA said at first, that there was a gap between practice and policy. Later, days later, they officially said that actually what they did was they rescinded the decision about Courtney and reinstated all her rights, uh, as a response to the, as they called it, the backlash, not the reaction, but they call it the backlash.

Um. It just makes me so angry. It makes me so angry that my little fist clench. So anyway, uh, president-elect became president. It is Damon Suede. Um, I personally have never met Damon Suede, I’ve heard him on lots of podcasts. I actually voted for him for president elect. Uh, I thought having a gay man on the roaster would be awesome. Uh, it turns out he’s a cretin and a creep and lies a lot. There are so many things you can read, but what I’ll do is hover at www.howdoyouwrite.net. I’ll put the link of a blogger who’s been keeping track of everything as it goes. So if you really want to get deep in the tea on this, you can go to that link and look at everything. Um, read all the things that Damon Suede has or hasn’t done, has or hasn’t said, um, with, with proof over there. So that, that is something interesting to read. He’s not a nice guy and he’s refusing to step down. So the organization, is imploding even more on the day that this happened, uh, the eight authors of color who were on the board, we had finally gotten an incredibly wonderful, diverse, inclusive national board.

Those women stepped down. They said, we do not feel safe in this organization anymore. They stepped down. And so we are left with, yesterday we had, um, three people. We had the president elect the treasurer, I believe and the executive director, and three remaining board members. That is six leading this national organization. They all need to go. In my opinion, all of them need to go. We need to, the only way that I think RWA could rise from the dead, um, is it, it became an organization that is actively hostile to people who create an unsafe environment for their marginalized members. We cannot be a place that provides a safe and respectful environment to racists period. Uh, so I am to the point where if I’m, I have said to my board president and to people around me that if Damon Suede doesn’t go, if we do not start from the ground up, um, I’m out of the organization, which absolutely breaks my heart. RWA has been everything. I have loved it so much. I am so heartbroken and I’m so angry that this has happened, that this has gone this far. So I know I’m, I’m barely marginalized. I’m a sis white woman who happens to be gay. Um, my troubles ain’t nothing like the authors of color and what they face and the fact that we have now made them feel even more unsafe in a place that already felt unsafe to them for historical reasons, uh, is absolute bullshit. So I am furious. I will not be a part of an organization like that. Um, today, instead of hearing that Damon and Carol Ritter, the executive director stepped down. Instead, we heard that they, um, put in board members. These of course, are not elected at this point, and our by-laws say that the president elect can appoint them in case of this kind of emergency. So he is now appointed people who other people are speculating are his people. He is known to do that. Uh, so there, uh, those, there are four new members that way I cannot imagine it would say yes to him who would want to step in in this time. Um, I said something really crappy yesterday that, you know, in the, in these ashes, we will rise a truly inclusive board and the entire internet said you had one.

They all quit because of what happened. So, I do encourage you to do your own reading, your own digging. This is not, and what I don’t want you to do is saying, oh, the romance writers, those ladies, they’re up to some catty stuff. No, this is absolutely the biggest trade organization in publishing. These are the women who run publishing. They sell the most books out of any other genre in the world. Uh, RWA is a $3 million organization who has a lot of money to do a lot of things with. And as chapters, if they decide to disaffiliate, um, they’re one we’re all wondering if we disaffiliate do we have to send you all our money, our prudent reserve, um, of our members’ money.

So there’s all this, there’s so much talk. So much speculation, so much panic and so much anger. And I just really wanted to be very clear on where I stand. I stand for Courtney. Um, it was a racist cluster fuck, that should never have happened. The ethics committee has been passed many racially charged complaints, most of which have never, well, I am exaggerating, some of which have never risen past the, the office staff. Uh, this one about Courtney seems to have been a malicious attempt at a coup. I know it sounds like a lot, but the more you read, oh, um, and it’s not acceptable. And I’m devastated. And that is my position. That is my personal position. So that’s where I am. 

That is not the most cheerful update on the last day of the year, but for, for a really cheerful update, I will tell you that I ran my numbers yesterday and this year I made $158,000 hot damn, almost $159,000 hot damn. So I will be on the next episode, breaking down what I made, how I made it, what it feels like, how much of that is write offs, if I can, if I can guess toward that. Um, I always really enjoy doing that show. So that will be coming up next. But honestly it might be nine or 10 days. I just don’t think I’m going to have time with all my travel to get that episode out by next week. So, I will keep you posted. It will be the very first episode of the new decade though. So I just wanted to say a big thanks to you for being here with me at “How do you Write?” for this past year or years, if you’ve been around a while, it means the world to me, and thanks for listening to me talk about RWA. I think it is really important and relevant to anyone who is in the writing industry at this time. To know that not only the bad actors are still there, they’re still trying to do it the way they’ve always done it, and there’s a lot of people fighting for that not to be allowed. And I am on the side of not allowing systemic racism to stand inside our industry.

So I hope you feel the same way and I wish you a very Happy New Year. I hope that wherever you are, if you’re celebrating tonight, um, you’re fine, and you’re safe and I look forward to writing with you in the new decade to come, which for me, as I record this is in like three and a half hours, I think. I don’t know what time it is. Anyway, Happy New Year to all of you and thank you again so much. 

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process and get to writing my friends.

Rachael talks about how she uses her tarot decks to uncover her own subconscious knowledge, and how you can, too

Transcript

Rachael Herron: Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron, and this is a bonus episode brought to you directly by my $5 Patreons. If you’d like me to be your mini coach for less than a large mocha Frappuccino, you can join too at www.patreon.com/rachael 

Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode number 160 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. This is a bonus mini podcasts, and I’m recording this on December 26th it is the only episode of the podcast that will come out this week because I’m trying to take a little bit of downtime during this holiday week because everybody else around me is too, so I’ve still got work to do that I’ve been doing, but I’m trying to spend a little bit more time lying down, reading books. 

But I didn’t want to miss sending out an episode of a podcast, so I decided to answer this question from Mary, and her question is a fascinating one. At the risk of potentially losing listeners. Um, try and keep an open mind on this one. Uh, it’s going to be a little, woo-woo friends, strap in, hold on. Here we go. Mary asks, “You’ve mentioned working with the Tarot in your writing. Can you spend a couple of minutes on what that process looks like? I know not everyone’s process will be the same, but I’m looking for suggestions on how to start working with a tarot in my own writing.” Okay. So Tarot, some people have already clicked off their radio. Uh, I am not a witch, nor do I play one on TV. I think of witches and Wiccans and exactly the same way that I think of priests and pastors and Buddhist nuns, and, um, any kind of authority figure in a spiritual practice. I am not an authority figure in any spiritual practice, but I will confess to you that I do believe that there is some, um, unifying spirit or force in this universe in which we live that sometimes gives us, pushes in the right direction. I kind of, don’t laugh, think about it like the force in the Star Wars movies. Um, don’t know what it is, but sometimes you can feel it.

You know that you should do X and when you are trying to live as well and as, um, ethically and morally sound helping others as well as yourself, then, uh, we can drop into that intuition and listen to what our own guts say. Basically the force is, the force for me is located in my gut. If I am doing right, I know it. If I am doing wrong, it just feels sick and think this green feeling in my body and not a good green, like a sick green. Uh, I know it’s wrong. And that’s, um, my definition of spirituality. You probably have a much better and more clear definition of that. I’m kind of an agnostic with a, a spiritual bent basically. But I really like tarot cards. I believe that they are, I’ve, I’ve been working with them for probably a year and a half. I believe there a really direct way to get to our subconscious in a very union way. Uh, when you look at the archetypes that are in every civilization and every community, um that have been projected throughout the ages, the tarot cards are just another depiction of that. And when we ask a question, and we are presented with a picture, our brains make a connection between the question and the picture. And it’s a way to hear our intuition talking. In a way that sometimes we can’t quite get to just by sitting at a desk and thinking.

So Mary, I thought that the best way for me to do this would be actually to do a little drawing here and tell you how I’m doing it. So, um, this week as so many weeks, I’m shuffling the cards right now. Um, I have been struggling with getting to the page, which is 100% normal for me. And this week is fine, it’s holiday week. Next week will not be fine. Um, but I’d like to ask them, I’d like to ask this, this particular taro deck, which is the everyday, which, which is really kind of just, uh, adorable. It’s an adorable deck. Um, uh, why am I having trouble getting to the page and I’m just going to for, pick a card? Um. Okay. It is the two of wands, which is, um, wands are about creativity and fire kind of like the fire element. Um, twos are about decisions. It, this is displaying to me that it is possible that I’m having a problem deciding between options, and I absolutely am. I have two options in front of me right now that I am being pushed and pulled to work on both of them. And I don’t know what to do. So what I do when I don’t know what to do is I kind of freeze. I don’t do anything. I just read books and, and do all of my other work and not writing.

Um, you heard me talk about this. So this is a very literal card for me to draw. Um, uh, and the two of wands is also to me, and it’s all about how you interpret the cards. You can get all these books to help you and stuff, but you can also just look at the card and say, how does this make you feel? Um, this card makes me feel potentiality. It makes me feel excitement that something is beginning. Um, it’s still early on in a process. It makes me feel confident that I will make the right choice and that the choices ahead of me are good. And that is what I feel. And I didn’t know if I could have articulated that as well before I drew this card. Um, I’m having a problem getting to the page because I am overwhelmed by the excellent choices that I have. And if you had drawn the same card with the same question, your brain and your intuition might’ve given you a very different story. I’m using the symbolism on the card and what the card is, um, referring to in terms of its number and it’s a suit basically. Um, that would have been exactly right for you because your intuition, your, at the back of your brain is putting together those answers. Um, but if you’re using it in terms of fiction, um, let’s see, I’m going to ask a question about my character, Jillian, and this is something I’ve been struggling to answer. I’ve been working, I’ve been struggling with her character arc and the reason why she doesn’t connect with other women well, why doesn’t she connect with other women well? This book is kind of about connection between a woman and their friendships. So, I kind of have her backstory, I kind of know what it’s about and I haven’t, I haven’t tried this, so let’s, um, draw a random card. Why doesn’t Jillian connect well with other women? I got the Hierophant, which I do not know if I’m pronouncing correctly. It might be Hereford. The Hierophant in this particular deck is symbolized by a beautiful yoga teacher in a class. I just lost six more listeners by saying that, um. So why she’s not connecting, and this is, this could be very, very true for Jillian. Jillian is a doctor, the Hierophant is all about, um, systems of power and learning and teaching. And Jillian has kind of felt like she is high in her own estimation and does have a hard time, um, connecting people to people who are not within the rigid system of the, of medicine that she is in. So I can read it as either she, it might be good for Jillian to realize that, to let down some or regard. Um, I can also read this card as she needs more – she needs more teaching, she needs to learn more about how to be a friend, and perhaps she needs to be looking for a mentor in friendship. Um, which this yoga teacher on this particular card would symbolize. A lot of times this is the Pope card. Um, but this really, uh, patriarchal and this deck dispensed with that patriarchal. Nonsense. Um. So perhaps she needs to look for a teacher and that is really resonating with me as I say it, because the woman in the book that she connects with the most that she wants to be taught by how to be a good friend is spoiler alert, of course, the bad guy. Um, so just playing with those ideas, playing with that card. It didn’t, it didn’t tell me how to write the next scene. Um, but it could, it could do that. Let’s try that. Um, I actually don’t know what my next scene is going to be, but it probably has to be something about Jillian soon to be ex-husband. How should I write the scene? This card, you guys, I’m doing this off the tab and this may not work at all, but I believe it will. Um, how should this next scene go? I hold 10 of ones. Um, which is about burdens, which is about carrying heavy objects and feeling overwhelmed. Uh, at this point, I, you basically with Taro, you’re, you’re examining, it’s aligning to your subconscious, your unconscious, and you get to decide how you feel about this. Um, Jillian is going to be feeling very burdened. Very overwhelmed by everything that is happening around her. But I also kind of read myself in this. I’m, I’m feeling a little bit overwhelmed and burdened by everything that I need to, you know, do in this book in order to make it a really good one, because somebody already bought it and I need to make it good. So I’m kind of feeling both of those things and I’m feeling relief at saying those words out loud and having it be okay. Um, so I hope that helps a little bit about how I use the tarot cards. They don’t, um, they don’t always direct me in exactly what’s going to happen next. Uh, but if I was to be literal about this particular draw, yes, I would have Jillian try to manage a lot of things and fail at doing so um, or feel like she is going to fail at doing so. So it actually could feed into a scene, but perhaps it’s really talking to me about my emotions and about how I need to maybe manage some of the other burdens that I’m carrying around.

So it’s super fun. What I’m saying is, it’s super fun to play with. And you heard me answering, um, or explaining what the cards meant. And that is only because I’ve spent some time working with them. I, there’s so many books out there to help you learn how to do it. But I think, um, the ultimate guide to tarot card meanings is probably the best that I know, um, by Bridget Esslemont. Um, she’s really, really wonderful. She’s an Australian. She has a great podcast. If you’re interested in, um, just kind of learning about tarot and what the cards mean and how to do things, um, you get to create your meaning from this, I’d recommend her podcast, I’d recommend her book. Bridgette Esslemont, E.S.S. E.L.M.O.N.T. 

And thank you so much for the question, Mary. That was super fun and I hope that you all are having a wonderful move out of 2019 and into 2020 next week I will be doing my annual tradition of talking about how much I made and the year before and how I made it, where those streams of income came from. So I will be doing that next week, I’ll look forward to talking to you then. I hope that you are getting some writing done and we’ll talk soon my friends. 

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, www.rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers rachaelherron.com/write/

Now, go to your desk and create your own process. Get to writing my friends.

Steff Green is a USA Today bestselling author of the paranormal, gothic, dark, and fantastical. Steff received the 2017 Attitude Award for Artistic Achievement, and was a finalist for a 2018 Women of Influence award. Her books are enjoyed by thousands of readers all over the world. When she’s not writing, you can find her hanging out with her husband and cat horde, or tearing up the mosh pit at a heavy metal show. Steff is the author of How to Rock Self Publishing, and the founder of the Rage Against the Manuscript community for writers looking to level up their career.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing.

Transcript 

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you, Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Well, hello writers! Welcome to episode number 159 of “How do you, Write?” I’m Rachael Herron, totally thrilled that you’re here today. Talking to fellow new Zealander, I like to brag, Steff Green. She’s a real new Zealander. I’m a new Zealander by maternal matrilineal heritage. She is absolutely phenomenal. You may recognize her name, from being covered in the media. She’s one of those people that the media writes about.

And they say, writing is not dead. Being a writer, you can make money. Look at this woman and what she’s doing. She is also fantastically lovely and so joyful about writing that she truly left me with a yearning to get to the page as soon as possible. So I know that you will enjoy her. And what’s going on around here? I’m just writing. I’m struggling a little bit to write. I am- there are two days this week that I just did not get as many words done as I wanted. For different reasons, migraine/excuse, excuse, excuse, insert, excuse here. So I’m fighting a little bit of that. Not a lot of it. Uh, but this time of year is just so frantically packed with things that have to happen. Plus, my car broke down, plus the dog is really, really sick and we’ve spent almost $2,000 at the vet this week. So that’s been taking up some time. But again, like I said, that is merely an excuse. And we all have excuses. So I like to say that here and proclaim to you my intention to get back to the page. Better and bigger and with an intent heart. There’s also the problem that I know that I’m not in the right place in my book. I’m going too slow and I need to pick up the pacing. Not necessarily the pace, but the pacing. And if it helps it all to know. The way I deal with that is I stop doing what I’m doing. In whatever scenes I’m doing it. Our guts are often right. And if they say you’re not doing X right, sometimes that’s just you panicking. Well, sometimes your gut is really telling you, “Ooh, no, you’ve got to, you got to move on here. You’re spending too much time in this particular scene or in this cluster of scenes.

So what I do in that case is I skip ahead just a little bit. I’m a very linear writer, um, but I do allow myself to skip forward to the next place that is of high interest to me. And I know where that is and I, I am going to start there. Today, with the full intention of writing scenes, to connect the last scene that I wrote with this scene that I’m writing today. And with the full knowledge that oftentimes I don’t have to do that. Later on when I come back and revision, I’ll go, I’ll be able to see the way to connect that last spot to this spot. Oftentimes it means deleting the last thing that I was writing, getting rid of that scene, it wasn’t useful to me. And for that reason, it was a good idea not to go on writing it, not to go on swimming in that nebulous sea of non-motion and get back into the action. Um, my biggest challenge when it comes to writing is inserting plot because I can write characters and emotions all day long and plot takes a back seat, and when you’re writing a thriller, the plot really needs to be there. So, today I’m kicking the plot in the caboose. Um, but my Goddaughter is also coming into town for the holidays, and so I’m going to go pick her up from the airport soon. So there’s all sorts of, commotion and I really want to be very dedicated to how I look at my work and how I get it done. 

A quick thanks to new patrons, Candice Floyd. Thank you very much, Candice, and thank you to the amazingly named Dahlia Vandahlenberg. I think it’s Dahlia Vandahlenberg. She edited her edited her pledge up to the point at which she gets to ask the questions for those mini episodes that I’ve been recording, that I’ve been loving recording. In another business note, very soon I will be announcing a not only 90 days to done, which is the online class that I teach in which you go through writing a book from beginning to end, either a novel or a memoir. But I think I’m also going to offer a 90-day revision at the same time. Because there are often groups of people that want totally different things. They want to do their revision of a novel or a memoir in 90 days or they want to write and then that makes them wait. This is going to be an experiment in managing my time.

This will be the first and possibly only time that I offer both of the classes at the same time. Um, the potential I see here happening is kind of doubling my work. And getting the same amount of students in it so that it might be a good time for you to try it, because it might be smaller class. Although, boy, these classes turn out to be wonderful. They’re not, usually over 12 people. So if you’re interested in that, just make sure you’re signed up for my email newsletter list. I will announce it there and in my Slack channels first. Um, the reason why I’m not announcing it right now is I don’t quite know exactly when I’m going to be offering it. Um, January is completely off the table, um, as I’m traveling for most of January, so I think I’m going to start the first week of February, and it’s a 3month course, and people write their books in the 90 days to done class, and they revise their books in 90day revision. They do the first major revision. Uh, one revision of course, is not enough to make your book into the best shape to send out to an agent or to hire an editor if you’re self-publishing. Um, but it, the, the big first revision is the hardest mountain to tackle. Everything else after that is much, much easier. So we do that together. So if you’re interested in that, um, just make sure you’re on my mailing list, http://rachaelherron.com/write, or in my Slack channel, which I will provide a link in the show notes at www.howdoyouwrite.net so you can always go check that out and join so you will be notified. That is all the business I have. Let’s get into Steff Green’s interview. I’m just so pleased to share it with you. You’re going to have so much fun listening to this, and I know you’re going to come away inspired and ready to take action in your own writing. So happy writing team, my friends, and we’ll talk soon. 

Rachael Herron: [00:06:56] Hey writers, I’ve opened up some coaching slots. I’m not taking clients on a weekly basis right now as I’m working on my own books, but I am doing one offs. I call them tune-ups. Tell me your plot problems and ask your character queries. Let me know what stumbling blocks you’re up against. Get tips and tricks to get you back on the right track. Ask me questions about all things publishing. Together, we’ll brainstorm your specific plan of action, making sure you’re in the driver’s seat of your book again, you’ll receive a 30minute call over Skype or FaceTime, giving you the honest encouragement you need to keep getting better. Or a polite ass kicking if that’s what you need and ask for. Plus, you’ll get an MP3 audio recording or MP4 video, your choice of our chat so you can re-listen at your leisure. And if you want a little more help, I can also critique either 10 pages or your book’s outline and talk you through my findings. Just check out http://rachaelherron.com/coach for more info. I’d love to work with you now on to the interview.

Well, I could not be more pleased to welcome to the show today, Steff Green. Chiora!

 Steff Green: [00:08:07] Chiora!

Rachael Herron: [00:08:08] How are you?

Steff Green: [00:08:09] I am very good. How are you, Rachael?

Rachael Herron: [00:08:11] Excellent this afternoon to talk to a fellow new Zealander, uh, I, let me give you a little bit of an intro here. Steff Green is a USA Today bestselling author of the paranormal, gothic, dark, and fantastical. Steff received the 2017 Attitude Award for Artistic Achievement, and was a finalist for a 2018 Women of Influence award. Her books are enjoyed by thousands of readers all over the world. When she’s not writing, you can find her hanging out with her husband and cat horde, or tearing up the mosh pit at a heavy metal show. Steff is the author of How to Rock Self-Publishing, and the founder of the Rage Against the Manuscript community for writers looking to level up their career.

Oh my goodness. I have not been in a mosh pit for maybe 20 years, and I believe I fell that time. That’s excellent. I love that. That’s, that might be how you get some of your emotion out. Um, yeah, So fabulous. I would love to talk to you about your writing process and how you get all this done. Can you tell me a little bit about when and where and how much and all of that?

Steff Green: [00:09:23] Sure we can. Um, so I guess, so when I started, um, rushing and publishing, I was one of those people who, you know, I worked on my first book for kind of like five years tinkering with it, changing little things, you know, figuring out how to actually do the thing. Um, I sort of got that you know, I finished that book and I’m like, yes, I’ve finished something that’s amazing. And then I immediately started the next book and, and because I was, I think I was running on the high of finishing that first book. So the next book I finished in like eight months or something. And you know what I mean, by the third book, I’d sort of die down to six months. Um, when I first started writing, I was writing kind of this quite dark, um, science fiction, kind of, sort of steam punk, but on the science fiction side of steam punk rock thing, the fantasy side. And so I was doing all this kind of indexed historical research and I decided to, ah, you know, I’ve got to write about steam trains, I have to learn how a stream train works. So we meet in Poland, husband and I volunteered volunteer up. Like a steam locomotive depo and, you know, they let me drive the train and that was awesome. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:42] That’s very cool. 

Steff Green: [00:10:43] Yeah, it was. It was really cool. Um, and yeah, and so I did all that kind of stuff. And, um. What’s, what sort of happened was I self-published those books. Um, because I had a, uh, um, I had a publishing deal which fell through and I was absolutely guttered. Um, and so I had to, um, find a way to, um, get over that. And it was sort of around the time when lots of the big kind of soft pop names and self-publishing were talking about how awesome they were doing. And I was like, this sounds great. Oh, I would like a piece of that pie, please. Um, yeah. And so, um, so I stopped published this, this, um, sort of, uh, steam punk series and it didn’t do very well.

But I was like completely addicted to this idea of holding my book in my hands and actually getting kind of feedback from actual readers and students just kind of constantly beating my head against the wall with all these agent’s, um, and, and just being able to take, to take an idea and make it happen and then bring it to the market. Um. It was just awesome. Um, and, uh, around that time I’ve started to think, Oh, you know, I wonder if maybe I would be interested in writing romance. Um, and I didn’t want to put it under my sub serious science fiction names, so I invented a pin name, um, which I kept completely secret from everyone, including my husband.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:13] Oh my goodness

Steff Green: [00:12:14] Then so, and I publish my, I wrote this, um, cute little 60 Fox shapeshift story was about a, uh, and, uh, Fox was an artist and he charmed up this gallery curator, and there was a big shift of war and it was like a 32,000 word Vela and I wrote it in about three weeks, um, and it just hold out of me. It was just, you know. Well, a thousand words a day, I just, you know, just, just having so much fun. Um, and I thought, well, you know, I’ll put it up, you know, it’ll sell two copies and I’ll, um, you know, laugh about it later and I put it up and it sold a thousand copies in a week. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:57] Oh my goodness. 

Steff Green: [00:12:59] And it was amazing. And I sort of had to kind of sheepishly tell my husband that I sold these books, but it wasn’t like my super serious, so it was this, um, this Fox shapeshifter book and he sort of, when he stopped laughing, “Are you gonna write some more?” And I was like, “Yes, I am going to write some more”. And that was 2000 April, May, 2015 and it’s now 2019 nearly 2020. And I have 35 books, and yeah, most of them a paranormal romance. Um, and I quit my day job in February 2018 so two years’ full time, and as the most fun I could ever imagine hit heaven. Um, and I never want to quit. I never wanted to go back. Um, so… 

Rachael Herron: [00:13:53] Isn’t it the best? I quit my day job almost, I get three and a half years ago, and it is every single day I get up and I cannot believe that I get to do this. This is a job. 

Steff Green: [00:14:04] I know

Rachael Herron: [00:14:06] I just get to make stuff up and it’s the best. And you know, and, and, and with what the other stuff that you do, we get to help writers too, which I think is a really big part of this process, so that’s fantastic. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing?

Steff Green: [00:14:21] Um, so, so I have, I guess, some interesting challenges. Um, so I’m actually legally blind. Which is why my eyes, do this while peeking, but I do realize, sort of walk off to the side, um, but so, um, so I’m actually, yeah, so I’m actually legally blind and, um, it was quite interesting because the reason why I sort of, one of the reasons I sort of fell into Brighton was because I was kind of get keeped out of my previous career that I wanted to have, which was archeology.

Basically, because, you know, people don’t think, you can’t have a blind archeologist and I’m fairly certain you can, it’s trying to convince people that, um, that I was good at what I did, even though when you’re, so I’ve got kind of got get keeped out of that. And, um, a lot of the reason I pursued writing, which was always a thing I loved, was because it was, I felt as though it was an industry where people couldn’t tell me that I couldn’t do it, and I found that has been, has been the case. Um, you know, obviously doing it, so it’s obviously fine. Um, but there, there are some challenges with, um, having an eye condition like me and, you know, writing books that we are trying to make things kind of appeal to universally to readers. So I was having a conversation with a friend the other day who just finished reading one of my books and he said, you know, it’s really interesting that you don’t actually describe characters very much the way they look. And I was kind of looking at it and actually, that’s true, I don’t really do it. Um, and part of that is because, you know, when I meet people, um, and you know, because I wrote romance, when I find people attractable, when I fall, fall in love with them, it’s not really what they look like. Um, and kind of, I don’t articulate. The white people look is kind of, you know, yeah, as a thing that is particularly interesting. Um, but I do describe smells a lot and things like that. Um, and so it’s quite interesting I have to kind of go back and I have to stop and go just to go know if he’s a six event. Spend some time talking with fantasy.

Rachael Herron: [00:16:49] That’s fascinating. I also leave that out just because I forget. I’m not that interested in it either, and I prefer to fall in love with my characters, who they are and – and one, one of the wonderful things about romance is that we get to fall in love with these people all over again all the time. We’re constantly falling in love, and yet we remain with our partners, our primary partners, and we get to have all these affairs on the page. I love that. Exactly. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing?

Steff Green: [00:17:19] Yeah. It’s kind of joyful, um, I mean, I love the actual ocs are, you know, taking a story that’s in my theaters and messing the keens and putting it on the page like that it’s just, is just wonderful and freeing and joyful and amazing. But I think particularly recently, as I’ve been getting a bit more popular, um, the, the response I get from readers, it’s just been that, you know, when I get fan mail and things that just like, I just cry. It’s just amazing. Um, uh, particularly, um, I’ve got one series, um, which is kind of a fan favorite, and the main character is, um, is going blind through the series and I have a lot of readers who contact me and say, you know, I was, obviously, it’s kind of goes a little bit on my experience. Um, and I have a lot of readers who contact me, say, you know, I’ve never read a character who is blind before, you know, I’m, I’m going blind, or, you know, I’ve been blind my whole life, or being vision impaired and it’s just so cool to read a book about a hero and who’s like me, who gets her happily ever after and she doesn’t get healed halfway through the book. You know, she doesn’t miraculously become sighted again. She, um, she gets to be in, she’s awesome chick. She gets to be an awesome chick. And be blind and not just one guy, but three guys. 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:52] You’re literally changing the world, 

Steff Green: [00:18:54] I’m trying, i’m trying to. 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:56] Legit. Legit. Do you have any plans for a blind archeologist book? to stick it, stick it to the gatekeepers? 

Steff Green: [00:19:08] I don’t know, actually. Um, I’ve done the, I’ve done a couple of books with, um, archeology, um, kind of archeologists. Um, I definitely have a lot more plans for a lot more blind and vision and pin characters. Um, I just, it’s really neat to kind of explore sort of what it means for me in my life and how I can take that to characters and, um, how, just knowing that there’s a desire from – from readers. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:37] That’s lovely. Can you share a craft tip of any sort with us?

Steff Green: [00:19:41] I can try. So for me, one of the things I’ve been learning a lot as I’ve been running more and more books as the importance of the main character. And you know, in romance we usually talking about, um, the female main character. Well, so you, we’ve got that jewel, um, as two main characters or more main characters. Um, so you’ve, you’ve got this main character, and they have, you know, they have a desire and the book that they will achieve. Um, and there’s all these obstacles that are standing in their way. And then at the end of the book, they achieved the thing that they don’t achieve the same. And that’s, that’s plot, in the nutshell. But the really important thing, which sometimes is missed a bit and plotting is that that character has to be a completely different, it has to be a different person getting another book, and at the end of the book, um, and it’s the process of striving for that goal. And usually, realizing halfway through or three quarters of the way through that that thing is actually not the thing that they want. It’s that it’s that process and it’s bashing up against the other characters who all have their own goals and their own internal challenges, and that’s what changes the person in a step process of changing and growing. That is actually the thing that readers really love. Like you could almost, you could almost take out the excellent stuff and you’d still have an exciting book because of the internal battle. Um, yes.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:24] I absolutely love that, and it took me so long to figure that out as a writer. 

Steff Green: [00:21:29] Yeah, me too. I was always like, all this, twist, all that twist. And I’m kind of hinted, I kind of kid back over the years and I still, still pretty unknown. Crazy twist and evil caught hands and things like that, but yes, it’s the internal growth, um, that role that excites the readers. You know, they’re the ones I’m writing for, so gotta give them what they want.

Rachael Herron: [00:21:57] I love that I’m reading, um, have you read Holly Black’s, uh, the Crow prints? 

Steff Green: [00:22:03] Yes 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:04] Oh my goodness. I’m reading that right now. And watching Jude change in the first book is just riveting. Riveting.

Steff Green: [00:22:13] It’s just stunning watching it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:15] Yeah. Awesome. What, uh, what thing in your life affect your writing in a surprising way? 

Steff Green: [00:22:21] Um, kind of talk to a little bit about eyesight. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:26] Yeah 

Steff Green: [00:22:27] That’s one thing. Um, I do, I do a lot of travelling. Um, I’m by myself and with my husband, and that’s a very big influence on my writing. And often it’s the things that I don’t, you know, I often goes to a place because I had, uh, you know, this thing I want to see because I think I’m going to put that in a book and often I’ll write it all, but it’s something completely different that’s gonna end up in a book. Good example, I guess is, um, um, we recently went to Romania, um, for a couple of weeks, um, because I am writing a series with character, um, Ben pies series, because of course, um, which is probably sitting in Romania with, you know, with one of the main characters is Romanian. Um, and so I kind of want us to learn a bit more about the country, and kind of a bit more about the norms, you know, the, um, red tipis came from kind of thing. Um, and one of the, one of the goals, one of the things we want them to do more than anything was go to the specific castle in the middle of Romania because it’s the one we are vibing paler, um, kind of did a bit of his last stand and it’s not the super famous castle. It’s kind of a ruin, but hard to get pictures, not that many people go and we weren’t, you know, this was, I was like, this is my main research thing. I’ve got to get to this castle and then we get to Romania and we discover that you can’t, they’ve closed the castle. You can’t go to this castle!

Rachael Herron: [00:24:02] Oh no

Steff Green: [00:24:04] because, because the reason is awesome. A bear, a mother and her cubs have taken up residence in the castle. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:15] That’s gorgeous. 

Steff Green: [00:24:18] It’s beautiful. And so they have got this epic castle for themselves. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:25] I tell you what, if that had happened in America, they would’ve shot the bear, you know? Oh, I love that they did that 

Steff Green: [00:24:32] Yeah, and they’re like, there’s no fuss at the castle. Um, and so, um, yeah, and so instead of the castle being in the book, this bear is gonna be at the book and it’s completely changed and a major plot was going on and its for the better

Rachael Herron: [00:24:51] And you never could have landed on that had you not gone. It never crossed your mind. Did you, did you know that they have a, um, a Dracula con in Transylvania? Have you seen that? 

Steff Green: [00:25:05] I do.

Rachael Herron: [00:24:58] Yes. One of my, one of my academic friends went recently to present a paper, and I just think that’s so very, very cool. Oh, that’s wonderful. What is the best book that you’ve read recently? and why did you like it

Steff Green: [00:25:17] Actually, I got it here.

Rachael Herron: [00:25:20] Oh, gorgeous cover. 

Steff Green: [00:25:22] Yeah, it’s stunning. So, I read from a romance writer, I read quite a lot outside of romance, kind of similar reasons why I travel a lot. So this book is called, Winding the Clock, 100 Graves to Visit Before You Die? And my husband bought it for me, and um, a hybrid cementery in London and usual old victorian cementery. This wasn’t in the gift shop. And I love, a bit of a golf. Um, and I love cementeries, and I love stories about interesting graves and what’s so cool about this book is that they’re all graves in England. Um, and the really fascinating stories, and it kind of gives you not just, not just the stories about the people, but also kind of about funerary culture and you know, how cementeries work and kind of Victorian funerary customs, and it’s just, it’s just super fascinating. And I’ve got, I’ve already got like a half a page of notes that I’m going to, you know, are going to be in my books. It might be in my books

Rachael Herron: [00:26:35] Absolutely what a place to leap from. And I just, I have a list of like three people that I need to get that book for now, including myself. That’s wonderful. Thank you. I’ve never heard of that. Would you now tell us a little bit about yourself, where we can find you and I would love it if you told us about your most recent book or series. 

Steff Green: [00:26:56] So, okay. So, um, I have a website called https://www.steffmetal.com And I’m on all of the, I’m on mostly on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/steffmetal, uh, in my, my private readers group and on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/steffmetal again. So, so I publish about once a month, so I have a lot

Rachael Herron: [00:27:26] Oh my goodness

Steff Green: [00:27:29] But one series that, this is the one that’s kind of a reader favorite of mine, and it’s called the Nevermore Bookshop series, the Nevermore Bookshop Mystery Series. It’s basically like, it’s like Agatha Christie crossed with Black Books um, with lots of sexy times.

Rachael Herron: [00:27:48] Nice. Are they set in New Zealand? 

Steff Green: [00:27:50] Uh, no, they sit in a bookshop in England, and the bookshop is a little bit of magical. And it makes, um, fictional characters come to life. And so the main characters’ love interests uh, he’s caught from weathering heights. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:05] Oh my goodness. 

Steff Green: [00:28:06] James Moriarty from a short poems and a course, the Raven from and Poe, and he’s actually a shapeshifter.

Rachael Herron: [00:28:15] What a brilliant concept.

Steff Green: [00:28:15] And yeah, and so every, every book they solve a mystery. Um, and all the book titles are like book worthy puns, and this is four books out and it’s yours at the moment. Plus, I’ve just released I don’t have the paperback but just released a Christmas novella called How He Stole Christmas. Which is making people really happy, so…

Rachael Herron: [00:28:37] That’s a great title. Well, I think I have to backtrack for a moment and ask, how do you get a book done a month? What is, what does the process look like for you? 

Steff Green: [00:28:46] So what I do, my goal is 4,000 words a day, 2000 in the morning, 2000 words after that. Um, and I, sometimes I don’t need it, sometimes I will set a timer, um, and I’ll, I’ll set time for 20 minutes and I’ll do some about 500, 700 words in 20 minutes. So theoretically I can get my 2000 words done in about an hour and a half, but that never actually happens. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:16] Um, and are you dictating or typing? 

Steff Green: [00:29:19] I type, I type and I learned to type when I was quite young, so I’m relatively faster. Um, and I don’t really, I’m a bit of a pencil, I, what I used to say, I don’t really outline, but what I’ve come to realize is that actually my, the first draft of my book, which is a super rough kind of 20,000-word draft, um, is actually an outline. It’s basically a rough, you know, it’s a challenge, it’s a lot of dialogue, a lot of description, absolutely no character descriptions. Um, and you know, I go, so I race off that draft in about a week, um, and it gets all my ideas down and then I go back and I finish it a bit, and then it ends up being about 50,000 words. And then I go back and I, I make it pretty. Um, and it’s another, most of my books are between 75,000 and a 100,000 words. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:12] Oh my goodness. 

Steff Green: [00:30:15] Yeah. And I, yeah, I published eleven books this year, but I did go to Europe to travel for six weeks. I probably will hit something 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:28] I’m happy when I hit two a year, or three a year.

Steff Green: [00:30:34] You know, I, we don’t have any kids. Um, it’s sort of just me and my husband. Um. It’s just so much fun. So, I kind of, you know, I used to write, I used to try and write a thousand words a day, and you know, it’s 2000 words, you know, I got more stories to write.

 Rachael Herron: [00:30:56] I find that so inspiring because I find 4,000 hard to hit every day on a regular basis, and I’ve just gone back to 2000 words a day. But when you say it like that, I think yes, that is the point. That’s why I want to write 4,000 words a day when I do, because there’s so much story that I want to tell and I want to get it done. So like I can tell the next book so

Steff Green: [00:31:15] Yeah, so

Rachael Herron: [00:31:16] Well, I find you an absolute delight and very inspirational. Um, where else can readers find you? Would you want to tell us a little bit about, um, Rage Against the Manuscripts?  

Steff Green: [00:31:26] Yes, I do. So Rage Against the Manuscripts is a new project that I have posted a description, and it is a, so we’ve got a Facebook group called, um, Rage Against the Manuscript, we’re the only Facebook group called that, so pretty easy to find. Um, and it’s just a group, it’s just a group of writers, you can go on air. Most people are self-published or thinking about self-publishing, but not, not everybody. Um, and we just were talking about writing. We kind of do like strengths and goals together. We talk a lot about marketing and people share, you know, this is what’s working for me or advertising, what’s not working. Um, I put a lot of kind of case studies of about things that I’ve done. So for instance, I recently held a Book Club and I put up a bunch of posts about, you know, here’s how that did over the days and kind of see in real time. So, so that’s part of it. And I’m just about to launch the website, um, which is www.rageagainstthemanuscript.com. Um, and that’s got a whole bunch of free articles about writing and self-publishing and kind of what I’ve done and, um, and it’s also got, um, a couple of short guides for writers, there’s a free one. Um, this one about writing romance, and it’s got my new book coming out called How to Rock Self-publishing, which is a full, complete nuts and bolts here, you’ve got a manuscript, here’s how to publish it, here’s how to do research, and then here’s how to market it and grow an audience with the idea of, you know, eventually maybe quitting your job and being a writer full time and so, yeah. And so that book’s coming out soon and if you want to get on the list to get a copy of that. Um, it’s kind of a, you know, it’s, it’s like taking all the self-publishing information that’s out there and kind of coalescing that into one and then kind of giving it a bit of a punk rock twist, so. 

Rachael Herron: [00:33:39] I love this. I cannot wait to get my hands on this.

Steff Green: [00:33:42] So if you weren’t interested, um, if you’re interested in getting a copy when it comes out, just go to www.rageagainstthemanuscript.com/howtorock and then you can sign up via, um, and I will send you an email. 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:02] Perfect. Oh my goodness. I cannot wait to read that. I am always interested in leveling up my own game as well. So, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. This has been fabulous and I wish you very, very, very happy, writing going forward. And I will be keeping my eye on your work. 

Steff Green: [00:34:22] Thank you!

Rachael Herron: [00:34:23 Thank you Steff, so much. Have a wonderful day. Okay. Bye. 

Rachael Herron: [00:34:28] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, https://twitter.com/RachaelHerron or at my website, http://rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at https://www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers http://rachaelherron.com/write. Now, go to your desk and create your own process. Get to writing my friends.

Ep. 158: Should You Plan to Self-Publish AND Seek Agent Representation? And Are Retreats for Introverts? Bonus Episode

Transcript

Rachael Herron: Welcome to “How do you, Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron, and this is a bonus episode brought to you directly by my $5 patrons. If you’d like me to be your mini coach for less than a large mocha Frappuccino, you can join too at https://www.patreon.com/rachael

Well, hello writers! Welcome to a bonus mini podcast episode of “How do you, Write?” episode number 158. I am coming at you with two questions here.

[00:00:26] The first one is from Ellen McCoy Beatty. Hello, Ellen! I think this is a really great question. What are the most important components of a writing retreat? I went to one recently that was lovely. But as a very shy introvert, I had trouble with the lack of privacy. Shared room, shared bathroom, et cetera. I know some writers just plan their own, either alone or with a few writer friends.

[00:00:49] Have you ever done that kind of retreat? Small and short, as opposed to a group going to Europe? If so, any tips? Yes, this is a problem and it is a problem for me. I have felt this exact way. So many of us writers are introverts, and I actually led a retreat last year, and it was at a lighthouse hostel environment.

[00:01:14] Um, it wasn’t hostile. It was a hostel, and it was beautiful, but the rooms were shared, and I kind of vowed that I would never do that again. We had a great time. But I, as an introvert really, really need to be able to shut my door and be completely alone. Um, it’s really very important to me. And when I lead the retreats to Europe, I make sure that everybody can have their own hotel room if they want one.

[00:01:41] They can always, you know, share a room with a friend if they want to, but everyone gets their own room. And I think that as introverts, that’s the way to do any kind of writing retreat. Um, I also think that’s the way to do writing conferences. Conferences are expensive and people tend to bunk up, you know, two or four to a room.

[00:01:59] And I used to find those experiences really miserable because I need the time to recharge. Something I really do love to do that is smaller and cheaper than a conference or a retreat. That is, you know, like one of my arranged ones is to do the group of friends. Um, and I’ve done that a lot. And the way I like to do it now is to find a house that has enough bedrooms so everybody gets a bedroom.

[00:02:25] As long as I have a door that can close, I don’t mind sharing a- sorry about that. A bathroom, that’s fine. But I need a door that shuts and a place to put in my earplugs and be really, really alone. And I think that the retreat experience is like no other. If you’re with a group of friends and you agree that you’re gonna write every morning from 8 until 12 and then you’re going to have free time until 3, and then you’re going to write from 3 till 5 and then have the evenings off, whatever it is, whatever you and your friends come up with to have as kind of the parameter, the loose shape of the retreat is wonderful.

[00:03:03] I think that if you’re planning a retreat, with friends, it is really important to set those parameters. Otherwise, you will end up just talking and drinking coffee and, or wine all day with the best of intentions. But you’ll probably only get 45 minutes of work done. So if it is with friends, set the attention. Set the goals, the guidelines. When are we going to talk? When are we not going to talk? I’ve done a lot of one day retreats. Um, you know, we’ll just pick a Saturday at somebody’s house and everybody goes there and whoever hosts it usually comes up with the guidelines. 

[00:03:36] Okay, we’re going to talk at these times. Please don’t talk otherwise, you know, go nestle yourself into that couch or over there- that table, um, really only works if somebody has a big house. And I also want to mention the solo retreat. I love a solo retreat, and I love looking at hostels as a great place to do this. They’re everywhere, they’re cheap, and you can often get your own private room for very, very inexpensive rate and are set in incredible locations.

[00:04:05] So again, you have to set up the box that goes around it, that kind of holds the space for you and do your work and have your downtime. You can’t go on a retreat and expect to write all day or revise all day. It’s just not possible. Brain-wise, you can do that maybe for one day, but you’ll be exhausted.

[00:04:24] So you need to build on the breaks and you need to breathe, build in the snacks and the walks and the exploration so they can be really wonderful. They do not have to cost a lot. You can bring all your own food in kind of thing. I, um, I very much recommend them. But if you know that about yourself, Ellen, and it sounds like you do.

[00:04:45] Absolutely go to those or put those on yourself as long as you have a bolt hole and a place to escape to. That’s what I would like to recommend for you because they can be super, super wonderful too, and a place where you can get a lot of work done. 

[00:05:00] Okay. Second and last question for this mini episode. Nice little quick one here, is from Katrina, who actually has been on several of my retreats. Hello, Katrina. I’m setting a goal for a self-publication date while simultaneously shopping for an agent. Wise or fickle? 

[00:05:18] Oh, girl, you go, that’s all I’m gonna say. I think it’s a little bit wise, and it’s a little bit fickle. I think it’s great. There is, the thing that I like to remember in this whole question between self-publishing or attempting to go the traditional route and snag an agent. Is that neither answer, neither direction is right all the way, and neither direction is wrong all the way. There are pros and cons to both and Katrina, I know that you are well-schooled then you are wise in the ways of what self-publishing looks like in today’s landscape.

[00:05:56] It’s a completely viable, awesome way to publish. And I think it’s kind of a, I think it attracts me as an idea. And if I think that if I were breaking into writing right now, that is probably what I would do. I would set a date, that I would self-publish and I would go hard on trying to get agents until then.

[00:06:18] Katrina, I kind of know what you’re working on. So, we will talk to everybody else who might be listening. If you are not quite sure, and Katrina, I know this doesn’t apply to you, but if listeners are not quite sure of the quality of their book, that is the danger point. I think it is hard to tell the quality of your own writing, and that’s something that you can gain or look at. You can gain voices on by getting beta readers, getting friends to read, although that can be dangerous. There are always going to tell you it’s great. How do you know if you can trust them? It might be something that you might want to hire an editor to tell you.

[00:06:55] Honestly, if this is in publishable shape, it’s very hard for us to know that, especially on a first book. So, I guess what I’m saying is if you’re going for agents and nobody’s picking up your book because it’s not right for them and they don’t think they can sell it in today’s market, that is one thing, then go ahead and self-publish your bad self.

[00:07:19] That’s completely awesome. If the agents are not picking up the book because they don’t think it’s a good, it’s good enough quality yet, and maybe you need to write a couple more books before you’re good enough. Then self-publishing might be a scarier thing because now you’re putting out a book that might not be as good as you want it to be. Maybe you need to get a little bit better. But again, that’s something that is very, very, very, very, very hard to judge. And that my friends, is why we need community. If you are listening to podcasts but don’t have community close to you, in person or a group of friends that are close online. That is something that you really want to cultivate.

[00:07:58] You want to cultivate writers who are real writers, who are trying to get stuff done, who are not just dabbling and writers who will tell you the truth and writers who are smart enough that you can trust them. And if one of those writers says to you, John, I don’t think you will be pleased if this is your first published book.

[00:08:17] You won’t be pleased in three years. When you know down the line after you’ve gotten more books under your belt, listen to those people. If you think your book has as good as it can be, then yes, set the self-publishing date, stop publish if you don’t find an agent before then I don’t think there’s, there’s, there’s nothing wrong with that.

[00:08:34] And I think it’s kind of a fun, exciting dance to do also. So Katrina, a very good and thought provoking question. Um, I know you’re writing and it’s fabulous, and your book is fabulous. So I just think, do whatever your heart desires. There’s pros and cons of everything, and it sounds like you’re doing everything just right. And with excitement and keep us and me posted please. So to the rest of you, I wish you very, very, very happy writing. It’s raining here in California and I have been enjoying doing my own writing the sound of the rain around me. So I hope that something in your life is sparking joy. And as I guess Marie Kondo would say, I think I stole that from her. And that you’re having a sweet time with your own creation, with their own words. Thank you for listening and we will talk soon.

[00:09:20] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you, Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, https://twitter.com/RachaelHerron, or at my website, http://rachaelherron.com. You can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life or as little as a buck an essay at https://www.patreon.com/rachael, spelled R, a, c, h, a, e. l. And do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers at http://rachaelherron.com/write/. Now, go to your desk and create your own process. Get to writing my friends.

Daniel Willcocks is an international bestselling author and podcaster of dark fiction. He is one quarter of digital story studio, Hawk & Cleaver, co-producer of iTunes-busting ‘The Other Stories’ podcast, as well as the host of the ‘Great Writers Share’ podcast.

Residing in the UK, Dan’s work explores the catastrophic and the strange. His stories span the genres of horror, post-apocalyptia, and sci-fi, and his work has seen him collaborating with some of the biggest names in the independent publishing community.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you, Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Well, hello writers! Welcome to episode number 157 of “How do you, Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. So pleased that you’re here with me today as I talk to Daniel Willcocks, who is a part of Hawk & Cleaver. He runs the ‘Great Writers Share’ podcast, which I was on, and he’s just one of those people that I fell into delight over when we first met online. So I am so pleased to have him talk here at you will find that he is just a charmer and he knows what he’s doing and he’s going to talk about writing fast, which all of us want to do. 

I tell you what, little bit of update around here. I have been hitting my word count every day except for today. Honestly, I ran out of battery power when I was over at the uh, the college where I write, and I didn’t have my charger with me for reasons and I came home and wouldn’t you know, as soon as I came home, there have been 1 million things for me to do. If I’d had my charger, I would have stayed there and gotten my last thousand words, but it’s okay. I, hmm, might give myself today, I’ll make myself a little gimme, uh, get back into it tomorrow or I might catch those words in the afternoon, which I hate to do, but I have been really proud of myself for keeping up with my goals because I can be a slacker, not a big slacker, but a slacker enough that it makes me feel bad. And, uh, I’ve been having so much fun with this book, although I was lamenting to a friend that I believe I’m a third of the way through it now, and the inciting incident just happened. So I’ve got some timing issues, some things, some major things that are going to need to happen in the revision when I get there, but I just write myself a little posted about what I think is going to have to happen later and I go on, as if it’s always happened. I needed to get them out of the house, uh, this morning. So, I gave her a cat that slips out and she asked to go get it ‘cause she has to go find something outside and I write, she has a cat named Freddy. He’s big and orange. This sounds so familiar to me, I may have had a big orange Freddy cat in a book before. Maybe I need a big orange cat named Freddy, I don’t know. Um, but that’s my post it. And then when I go back and revisions, that’s a one of my many revisions post-its and Freddy, I will weave him in from the beginning. See, um, that’s how I kind of do it and I kind of don’t worry about it. 

And I’ve just been having a very nice time letting it all fall on the page sloppily. Badly. I know that I’m writing a terrible first draft, and that makes me feel so much better to know that what else has been going on? Oh, classes wrapped up. Um, my memoir class finished and uh, that was really nice, it was an in person class at Stanford, and I have to say, might’ve been my best class ever, in terms of the most delightful people, usually, to be honest, I get the most delightful people plus one challenge, and even my challenges are pretty darn small and I had no challenges in this class. They were just a lovely and good writers and compassionate and supportive and eager and no one dropped out. That’s one of the things I love about this memoir costs. A one person had to stop coming because she was moving, but everybody else just kept coming. And also my 90 days to done wrapped up, so today is Thursday, December 12th that was the first day, and nine, nine months that I haven’t met with a group of people at noon. I did 90 days to done, followed quickly by 90 days to revision and then followed by another 90 days down and I’m taking a few weeks off as I try to recalibrate and see where it’s going to fit into my life in the beginning of the year, because January is very, very busy. I am going to be in Pittsburgh for a, um, teaching at Seton Hill in their MFA program. Which I’m really looking forward to and there is going to be a live in person thing with me and Sophie Littlefield and Juliet Blackwell. So if you’re interested in that, hit me up. If you’re in that area and want to come say hello. Also, I’m going to, that’s the first week of January and the first week of February, February 1 through 3, I’m going to be at a story shop summit in Austin. I’m very much looking forward to seeing Austin. It is a city that Lala and I have been thinking about. Maybe it’s a good place to live. Who knows? I, um, am looking forward to looking around while I’m there. So if you have any Austin recommendations, let me know. And yeah, almost is going well. 

Let’s jump into the interview now or after I thank new patreon, Anita Ramirez, thank you very much, Anita. You should have gotten your personalized little video thank you in your email. I like to do that when I can, but also a big thank you to you and to everyone who supports on the show. You can always check that out at www.patreon.com/rachael and I hope that where you are, you are getting some happy writing done and if you let yourself slack off a day or a few days that you don’t beat yourself up as I am often want to do that you just let that go and start again tomorrow. Remembering that tomorrow morning, you might not feel like writing either, but do it anyway. I’ll be doing it. I’ll be writing with you even though I don’t want to. 

Yesterday was a really rough day for me to get to the page and I made myself drive out to the coast and write before I got to eat this crab sandwich, it’s crab melt that I love to get outdoors in Pescadero. Uh, so that was my reward. Maybe you should be thinking a lot about rewards for you. It’s harder this time of year. It’s hard mentally at this time of year, I have a lot of family and friends who are struggling with some mental health stuff right now. So if that is you, please be gentle with yourself. You are doing writing work right now and you listen to other writers, that counts as part of your job as does reading. Nothing counts more than writing, of course, but reading and listening and learning, that all counts toward your writing goals, and your writing dreams. So, um, I hope you enjoyed this interview and I wish you happy writing and we’ll talk soon. 

Do you wonder why you’re not getting your creative work done? Do you make a plan to write and then fail to follow through? Again? Well, nice sweet friend, maybe you’d get a lot out of my Patreon. Each month I write an essay on living your creative life as a creative person, which is way different than living as a person who’d been just Netflix 20 hours a week, and I have lived both of those ways. So I know you can get each essay and access to the whole back catalog of them for just a dollar a month. Which is an amount that really, truly helps support me at this here writing desk. If you pledge it, the $3 level, you’ll get motivating texts from me that you can respond to, and if you pledge at the $5 a month level, you get to ask me questions about your creative life that I’ll answer in the mini episodes. So basically, I’m your mini coach. Go to www.patreon.com/rachael R, a, c, h, a, e, l to get these perks and more. And thank you so much. 

Rachael Herron: [00:07:40] Well, I could not be more pleased today to welcome to the show, Daniel Willcocks. Hello Daniel!

Daniel Willcocks: [00:07:45] Hello Rachel, how are you? 

Rachael Herron: [00:07:46] I’m so glad to see you again. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:07:48] I know; it’s been a whole like two or three weeks. 

Rachael Herron: [00:07:51] Terrible. It’s so long. I was on your wonderful, Great Writers Share podcast, which was so fun. Thank you again for having me, and it was one of those reciprocal things as soon as we hung up, I said, you have to be on my show. So now you’re here. Let me give you a bit of a bio before we start. 

Daniel Willcocks is an international bestselling author and podcaster of dark fiction. He is one quarter of digital story studio, Hawk & Cleaver, which is a name I always admire, co-producer of iTunes-busting ‘The Other Stories’ podcast, as well as the host of the ‘Great Writers Share’ podcast. Residing in the UK, Dan’s work explores the catastrophic and the strange. His stories span the genres of horror, post-apocalyptica, post-apocalyptia? Is that what you say?

Daniel Willcocks: [00:08:36] Post-apocalyptia 

Rachael Herron: [00:08:38] Oh, thank you. And sci-fi, and his work has seen him collaborating with some of the biggest names in the independent publishing community. And you and I met through J thorn, who is, 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:08:48] we did 

Rachael Herron: [00:08:48] one of those biggest names in the independent publishing community. Jay really gets 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:08:52] Jay is a goddess of his own source. The best part is, he doesn’t even realize it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:08:57] He does – he doesn’t, but he

Daniel Willcocks: [00:08:58] So humble

Rachael Herron: [00:08:59] When you do tell him that he just rolls his eyes and yeah, it’s great. But I also, um, so it was, I was saying on your show how I connected with him immediately, and I connected with you immediately and I really want to hear about your process and how you, because you do all of this stuff and you’re writing the most important part. Um, and you’ve got a kid or two, right? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:09:26] Yeah, I’ve got a, a four soon to be five-year-old as well.

Rachael Herron: [00:09:29] Oh my goodness. So tell us about that. You, this is your full time gig now, right? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:09:33] Yeah. So I went full time in April this year, so just over the 6-month mark. But um, 

Rachael Herron: [00:09:39] Yeah, that’s right. And you’re right in the terror point, right? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:09:43] Yeah. Yeah. I’m kind of in that middle of, you know, enjoying what I’m doing. It’s, it’s, it’s getting me by. It’s, it’s everything that I kind of want it to be. Um, and as you always wants to do when you’re taking your career sort of solo is I want to start looking at hitting that next level. So it’s now taking those steps and trying to try to make that happen, I think I’m sitting in that part of learning what my process is, learning what my day looks like, learning how to say, capable the ins and outs of what it means to be freelance, and, to do this all the time. But yeah, I’m slowly getting there. Six, six months is a good milestone marker. So I’m just gonna keep pushing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:17] I am at four years and I still am trying to figure those things out. So,

Daniel Willcocks: [00:10:20] Yeah, that seems to be the common consensus. It never seems to get any, any easier, really, 

Rachael Herron: [00:10:25] Which is kind of what I love and why I do this show, because our processes are always, always changing and adapting and there is no one right way, although we all should think that our way is the right way, the one right way. And I want to hear about your one right way. So tell us about your writing process, when and where and how much and how often. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:10:43] Um, so my day tends to be built up that I will typically on a good day. Okay, I’ll put sort of half five and my first thing I’ll do is I’ll go out and have sort of a 10-15 minute run just to get my body going and get outside, get a bit of fresh air, wake up the body. Um, I’ll come home, I’ll sort of make myself a coffee while the kettle’s boiling. I’ll have a 5-10-minute meditation just to try and get my mind into the right state of calm, knowing what it is I’m going to do. Um, one thing that I haven’t done for the last few months, which I’m bringing back in, uh, over the next few weeks because it works very well at the time, is, um, I’m not a journaler as such, but I did buy a sort of note pads that I started writing on my to do list in the morning. Comparing it to what I wanted to do the previous day and sort of transferring over a bit, It’s very bullet, journal and style. Um, and I think five minutes of sitting down and what I do is I’ll write three things I’m thankful for and then write my sort of to do list of things that I just want to get done that day. And then out of that list of everything, ‘cause I will, I’ll, I’ll literally put everything on there that I can think of, but then I’ll sort of pick three things where I’m like, all right, this is your priority, anything else is just notice. Um. And then I’ll, from about six just gone six, I’ll write until 7 o’clock when my son gets up, I’ll sort him out, take him to school, do all that kind of dad stuff, and then I’ll generally get writing again about half 9, 10 o’clock and aim to finish at about midday one o’clock depending on how much I’m trying to get done that day and, and what I’m doing. Um, but I mean, like I said, that’s kind of a typical day that I try and aim for. But then the afternoons on me filled with being on my laptop, doing podcast stuff, uh, doing the marketing, the evenings usually spent with that, some sort of super big stuff I’m trying to plan for next year. Um, and I think I’m absolutely obsessed at the minute with the work I’m doing and I’m loving all the stuff I’m doing and I’m finding I’ll try and find that balance between home life and work. Um. But at the same time, I know that I will need to start taking a bit more of a break soon, and I do tend to hit it quite heavy when it comes into the stuff that I am doing. Um, so yeah, it’s finding that balance, but typically, yeah, that’ll be my sort of, when I’ll get my writing done, will be those, those hours in the day.

Rachael Herron: [00:12:44] Your schedule is; I think maybe the first time I’ve ever heard. Basically, my exact schedule, exactly down to, and including the bullet journal and the grand

Daniel Willcocks: [00:12:56] We have the right ones

Rachael Herron: [00:12:57] Exactly. We are the right ones, exactly! Um, and the gratitude, I think is something that nobody else has ever brought up, but, but, in our brains cognitively, doing these gratitude lists actually helps us be happier. Literally, it raises the happiness level. They prove it. Yes, so,

Daniel Willcocks: [00:13:14] I am – I put a diary in, I wanna say March. It was called the 6-minute journal, which you could buy on Amazon for about 20 pounds. Yeah. That was the, the principles of that is three minutes in the morning, three minutes in the, in the evening. And a big part of that was the gratitude and I, you can look back and scan ‘cause it makes you basically score different parts of your, your mental wellbeing against like family, finance, um, health, friendship, all that kind of stuff.

Rachael Herron: [00:13:37] Oh, that’s great

Daniel Willcocks: [00:13:38] Yeah. On a scale of 1 to 10, and so look at like the first few pages then sort of about four or five months after and see those numbers go up.

Rachael Herron: [00:13:46] Because it is, yeah. It’s so hard to do that. Um, just in our brains, there’s also another one called the productivity planner, uh, which, which you may have seen and what I took from that one is exactly what you do, where you list everything out, but then you pick the top. You know, one, two or three things that if you did them, your day will be complete, that you can, and then everything else is bonus. And it sounds like you’re doing that too. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, I heartily approve! 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:14:11] Yeah. I’ve been high school studying this stuff for probably about, you know, I’d say about two, two and a half years or so, particularly. Um, going back to my old job before I got into the writing was I took a big step very quickly from sort of assistant to coordinator to a manager role. And in trying to handle that, I spent a lot of time trying to refine this process and find the things that would help me get through that. And I’ve kind of carried a lot of that into my writing, so, 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:34] Well then if finding the exact perfect one. So they will say that everyone gotta get up at five. Uh, but that’s just nuts. That’s just, that’s terrible. All right. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:14:44] Oh, myself 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:48] Quite simpe,

Daniel Willcocks: [00:14:49] So, yeah. My, I guess my biggest challenge is the expectations of what I think I can get done in a day versus physically what I can get done in a day. And I’m someone that I, I pride myself on quality of work, but at the same time, um, the, the way I’m working in the projects I’m working on at the minute are quite fast moving projects. So there’s a certain level of, okay, this is good enough to be shipped and, and go out, and it’s a lot about getting out of my own way and try not to get bogged down because. I’m trying to understand which part of my author journey I’m on. I’m trying to look at what my end goal is and where I want to get to. Um, and I just know that some of the stuff I’m doing at the minute, it’s just the work that needs to be done to get to where I am. And, you know, things like this, they don’t just happen overnight. Even, even in becoming full time. I had a month period where in, I think it was probably about month four. So, um, my head started going, okay, you’ve made it. Which meant that then I slowed down and everything and then things started to catch up and I was like, no, no. You’ve only just started this journey. Really. You’ve only just gone full time, because that was the hard thing was to go from, I really want to be a full time author to I’m now a full time author that feels like you’ve hit the big time and you’ve made the jackpot. Obviously it’s a, it’s a monumental, um thing, in his own right. But then you suddenly realize, okay, you now, have to find a way to keep this and make it sustainable, and then that’s the next part of the journey. So, um, yeah, I think the biggest challenge really is one, overcoming those obstacles and getting your head into a way in which you’re looking at what your end goal is and trying to find the right steps to reach there, that are going to work for you. Yeah, it’s normally getting out of my own way and try not to destroy myself or get this hard because I’ll have days where I do, I did do quite bit of word counts. I like days when I rise with 5,000, 6,000 words, and it won’t be the amount of words that I want to get. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:36] That’s not – do you want more? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:16:38] Yes. Yes, I do. Yeah. I’ll take them. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:43] What’s an ideal day a word count for you on a day? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:16:46] I think I want to; I want to average about 7 or 8. 

Rachael Herron: [00:16:50] Holy cow. I am not that smart. Like once I hit about 3000 words, I’m out of ideas. I could keep going, but I don’t have any more for the rest of the day and my brain refuse it. It just shuts the gate. No more ideas for you today. You must rest.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:17:02] Yeah, I know, um

Rachael Herron: [00:17:04] Are you on dictation or is this all typing?

Daniel Willcocks: [00:17:07] This all typing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:08] Jay told me yesterday that he hits 1700 words in 22 minutes and I wanted to punch him in the face. That’s so fast.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:17:17] Yeah. I, uh, I think the best that I’ve done, particularly last six months or so was, and I still don’t know how I did it, but I was in a Starbucks, Um, it was the first time I used an accountability partner. I think I was tired. I tend to write well when I’m tired. 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:28] I do too.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:17:29] Yeah. Because he’s just not thinking. And within the hour I looked up and I’d written 3000 words somehow, and I was like, 

Rachael Herron: [00:17:35] Wow, that’s my goal. That’s my dream. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:17:37] Imagine if you could do that regularly, you could do that one hour, boom checkout.

Rachael Herron: [00:17:41] You have now proven like breaking the 4-minute mile, you’ve now proven it can be done. So, you can work towards that, exactly.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:17:50] Yes

Rachael Herron: [00:17:51] Keep me posted on that. What is your biggest joy when it comes to writing? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:17:55] Um, I think, I think it’s two things. I think, uh, number one is I love the, the flow state of writing and just being in the story and just, I mean your name, because obviously you, you, you want to fit this as well. There’s no real, real way to explain it. It’s just that that blesses just writing and just knowing that the words are pouring out and feeling like it’s good, even though it might not necessarily be even an insight. But that moment where you just sort of spend 20 minutes, half hour away ever is, it’s all gone, right? You feel fantastic. You can just, you know, hit whatever close your laptop and just, and just call it a day.

Rachael Herron: [00:18:28] Oh, it’s so good

Daniel Willcocks: [00:18:35] And it’s so rare that it makes you, seek even more because I love it, but I’m trying to remember the last time I actually had it and I think it was probably a few weeks ago. Um, but then the other thing is actually hearing from, from the readers and sort of real people reaching out to you and, um, I mean, we’ve got one person, I won’t name her, but she’s an avid fan of everything Hawk & Cleaver does. And, uh, the minute you bring something out, she’s, she’s shouting about it. She’s messaging. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:57] I love those people

Daniel Willcocks: [00:18:58] Yeah. And she, she’s a person that’s sort of gone through a lot of, um, uh, health issues over the past however many years. She’s really, really struggling and she’s one of these people that just, the, the stuff that we do is bring in her relief. And I think there’s something just so rewarding about that. Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:13] That’s amazing

Daniel Willcocks: [00:19:14] And to find those people as well because not everyone wants to reach out 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:17] and to find those people, to, to have those people find you and for you to appreciate them, I think is really, really special and important. And, um, to make those people be heard and feel heard is also a gift that you’re giving. So that’s beautiful. Yeah. I love that. Can you share a craft tip of any sort with us? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:19:37] Uh. I kind of already have, so write fast. It’s my craft. It, yeah. and I’m sure, um, I know Jay speaks about this sometimes, and I’m sure you’ve had it before, but my, my whole system at the minute is particularly with first drafting just right there. Can I swear on here? 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:57] Oh yes. Go right ahead. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:19:58] Yes, write the fucker as fast as you can, because there’s, there’s so much that you can do when you have that first draft done and you know what your story is, and you know the parts you need to fix, you know what, you need to add everything else. And I think it’s very easy to get bogged down in a, I’ve forgotten what this name is, so I’m going to Google it. Oh, that’s Google. Okay. That’s 20 minutes distracted looking at other things. Okay. Back. Okay. So that, um, and there’s nothing really more valuable, um, in my opinion and actually getting that first draft done and then knowing what the story is because it’s really difficult to know what your story is until you finish it. 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:32] Absolutely. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:20:33] It will change from the start to the end. So that’s probably my biggest one is just write fast and move out of your own way. Just get it done. 

Rachael Herron: [00:20:39] What are your specific tips as to writing fast from me? Um, my biggest one is to cut off the distractions and uh, do sprints of any length cause, and I really like what you said about doing a sprint with an accountability partner opposite you at the table, because I am supremely competitive mostly against myself, but if somebody else is there, I want to, this is terrible to admit, but I want them to overhear the typing of my fingers and wonder if I’m faking, you know, doing fake typing. I want them so fast. I’m so busy. Um so, do you have any other tips like that, that you use to get the words out quickly?

Daniel Willcocks: [00:21:17] Yeah, so I mean, um, I’ve jumped through those different methods. Most of what has worked well for me has been time sessions. I did go through a period for a good few months actually, where I just, as long as I picked the same days, the same times every day, my body would start to get into that. But I think that’s because I built that habit. Um, my, my biggest ones that I found keeping productive in the morning, um, when I’m first on my computer, what I would do is open up my calendar app and actually blocking the times that I’ll be writing and how many words I’m going to get done. And I don’t say how much I want to,

Rachael Herron: [00:21:49] I love that

Daniel Willcocks: [00:21:50], I will say I’m going to. Um, so I mean, I’ve got like pages and pages on my calendar where it was sort of there’ll be a block though. Say 2000 words, 1/2 thousand words, 800 words, whatever time period, period. I’m trying to fill in, and

Rachael Herron: [00:22:02] That’s so simple, and, and it seems like it would work really well. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:22:06] Yeah, because I don’t look at the calendar and I’ll be like, okay, I’ll know if I hit one thousand five hundred two thousand before that time is up, I reward myself with a little break until the next block happens, or I can try and push a bit further and then build that tally up at the end. Um, but also means that I’ve got a visual of how long it will take me to write 1000, 2000, 3000 words in, in those colors. So that’s one of the big ones. And then, yeah, I’ve jumped back now into 15 minute timers and I’ve just bought a new Fitbit watch, which I can set a timer on so every while do is I’ll set 15 minutes and then just hammer out words, try not to think about ’em too much, and then just get them done until it buzzes. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:44] I love that. I’m so glad that I asked you to expand on that. I’m immediately stealing the Google calendar thing, that is brilliant.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:22:51] I don’t know how I came up with that but yeah, 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:54] I, I don’t know why I’ve never heard it. You’re the first to bring this to me and I, and I adore it, so thank you very much. This is why I do this show. Copyright. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:23:00] Copyright. Dibs. 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:04] Write a book on that, no one’s written that book yet. Um, what is the thing in your life that affects your writing in a surprising way? 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:23:12] I tend to fit surprising so much, but reading in that, so I tend to read quite widely. Um, I like, I like my horror a lot, but depending on the types of book I’m writing, I’ll try to find books similar to what I’m trying to achieve because I tend to be very, I found, um, from a very early age that I’m very good at mimicking, um. Which sounds awful. I’m not seeing people’s content, but like 

Rachael Herron: [00:23:40] That’s how we do it. That’s how we learn. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:23:41] Yeah. Yeah. And if it came to drawing, I was always really good at sort of copying while he was on the creating my stuff. But with writing, I find that whatever book I’m reading that will just influence 100% while I’m writing that day. So I have to be careful about what I’m reading that leaks into it because I mean, I’m going to struggle to give examples now, but the last thing I want is for a book to not sound like it’s all come from one unified voice and say I’m writing something in the post-apocalyptic zone, and then I’m reading something really, really horror, a lace. Then it’s a case of, I don’t want too much horror to go into post-apocalyptic. So I then have to specifically find a post-apocalyptic book to bring out, to read, to, to do that. And when I started writing, um, back in 2015, I would deliberately sit and read for five minutes before every writing session, like book next to me. Read it. Okay. Just to get my head into this or paragraph structures, the sentence structures, how will the tone of voices just to get me started? And that was kind of how I built up craft and started looking at voice as well. So reading, um, which seems like the most obvious thing when you’re a writer anyway. But yeah, massive, massive impact depending on what I’m reading to what I’m writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:24:48] That is also a bonus craft tip people. So that’s awesome. Um, speaking of reading, what is the best book you’ve read recently and why did you love it?

Daniel Willcocks: [00:24:57] Wolf Land by Jonathan Jan’s. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:00] What genre is it? It sounds like horror.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:25:02] Yeah. All right. Yes. Um, I mean, number one, it was a beautiful hardback, which I wasn’t expecting it was a present with my brother. Um, but I asked for a paper – well, I thought I’d ask for paperback, but it came as a hardback, but it was beautiful and it had this sort of red and black color out the Wolf on it. And, um, I think the thing about the books that I love the most was just how, and this is, this can make the horror side of me. Cause I know that I sound really sweet and soft and everything. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:28] All these, all these sweet people, the sweetest people have the darkest writing. Yeah. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:25:32] Yes. Um, and there were just, ah, the story itself was centered around a group of, um adults who had come back and they were basically doing a school reunion and a couple of days before the actual school year reunion, they’re out in the woods and they get attacked by the zombie or this werewolf something that’s somebody where we’ll figure who comes in attacks a few of them. I mean, it’s their story of how they deal with becoming werewolves while hiding it linked with everything else, but just the, the descriptions and the way that it was very poetical and how it actually described a lot of the actual horror stuff. I love it when, I love it when people stray away from cliche, you can come up with really original source. Um, sense inducing ways to, to make you feel the horror and that’s, that’s one of the things I do, but from horror is that people who can attack the fire centers really get me. And that’s what I love it’s that communication of words into feelings?

Rachael Herron: [00:26:19] Yes. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:26:48] So I just sit there and she feels physically scared to actually like taste, smell certain things and this guy just captured that in some really, really beautiful sequences which I put marks and now I get back to, and just have a little look and like yeah, this is what I want to have on my own so it was that kind of stuff. I think it was just a fantastic story as well, I say. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:39] And so I love what a deliberate reader you are too, as well as getting lost in the story, but you’re very deliberate about the use, which you can take out of the enjoyment of your reading. So 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:26:48] Which takes out the enjoyment of reading 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:49] It absolutely does. It ruined you as a writer forever and ever. And as a, as a, not as a writer, as a reader, and as a watcher of TV and as a watcher of television shows and movies and yell all of that, it’s really annoying. Yeah. But we are running out of time. What would you like to tell us about right now? Tell us about your last book and where we can find you perhaps.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:27:10] So, yes. My, uh, my latest book is the Mark of the Damned and it came out on the 25th of October, and it is an occult horror about a guy who essentially just gets a tattoo appear on his arm a month after his father’s died. And they may or may not be a connection between the two. And it kind of goes a lot into the depths of the occult, which is, um I, it was a book that I absolutely love writing and, uh, it seems to be doing pretty well. So if you want it out, then do. Um, and yeah, I’ve also run The Great Writers Share podcast, which obviously yourself has featured on, um, in which I go into the, the tips of strategies and mindsets of some of the writers around today from all different walks of life. And, uh, the other stories podcast is the podcast idea of Hawk and Cleaver, which is a 20-minute horror sci-fi thriller fiction. Which comes out every Monday, absolutely free. And we’re approaching four years on that podcast now. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:02] Wow

Daniel Willcocks: [00:28:03] We got lots of content there for people to eat. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:15] And where can we find you yourself on online?

Daniel Willcocks: [00:28:17] Uh, find me on my website, www.danielwillcocks.com and that’s W, I, L, L, C, O, C, K, S, contrary to every certificate, a piece of paper, anyone signs with my name on in my life. Um, and you can find me on social @willcocksauthor. 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:32] I actually got my social security card, um, twice mailed to me from the federal government, R A, C, H, E L and I have that extra AEL in mind and I just couldn’t get it right. And yeah, so I, I definitely feel you on that. Thank you so much for being on the show and it’s so lovely to know you. And let’s keep in touch. I want to keep watching you progress and talk to you in a few years when you’re like, I’ve been doing this for years and I, I still don’t know what I’m doing and it still feels good.

Daniel Willcocks: [00:29:01] So that seems to be the trajectory, so I’m looking forward to that. Yeah, absolutely. It’s a, it’s pretty good to know you as well. 

Rachael Herron: [00:29:07] Thank you, Dan. All right. Have a wonderful day and happy writing. 

Daniel Willcocks: [00:29:08] Happy writing. Bye.

Rachael Herron: [00:29:10] Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, https://twitter.com/RachaelHerron or at my website, http://rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at https://www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers http://rachaelherron.com/write. Now, go to your desk and create your own process. Get to writing my friends.

Kentucky born and bred, Jeremy Spillman moved to Nashville, Tennessee to pursue his dream of success as a songwriter at 24. It would be five years before he landed his first cut by a major label artist and signed a publishing deal. Since then, Jeremy has had songs recorded by Eric Church, Tim McGraw, Keith Urban, Reba McEntire, Luke Bryan and many more. Spillman lives with his wife and four sons south of Nashville, TN. He considers his role as a father the most important in his life. When he’s not writing novels and songs or recording music, Spillman is supporting his sons at football and basketball games and spending time with his family at home. Spillman’s debut novel, The DeVine Devils, was released September 24, 2019, with an accompanying soundtrack EP and full-cast audiobook. The music was written by Spillman with Nashville songwriters Randy Montana and Dean Dillon and recorded and produced by Spillman at his home studio. For more about his debut novel The DeVine Devils and the soundtrack, visit www.jeremyspillman.com.

How Do You Write Podcast: Explore the processes of working writers with bestselling author Rachael Herron. Want tips on how to write the book you long to finish? Here you’ll gain insight from other writers on how to get in the chair, tricks to stay in it, and inspiration to get your own words flowing. 

Transcript

Rachael Herron: [00:00:00] Welcome to “How do you Write?” I’m your host, Rachael Herron. On this podcast, I talk to authors about how they write, what their process is and how their lives fit together. I’ll keep each episode short so you can get back to writing.

Well, Hello writers! Welcome to episode 156 of “How do you Write?” I’m Rachael Herron. I’m recording this on December 5th, 2019 and I am thrilled that you’re here today. I am talking to the fabulous, Jeremy Spellman, and I like to try to get a little bit of a cross section of people on this show, and he is a Nashville singer-songwriter who has translated those skills to writing a novel. And I just thought it was fantastic to talk to him. He was charming and sweet, and I could listen to that accent all day long, ya’ll. So I know that you will enjoy the interview with him. Hold tight for that. 

A couple of things, just update around – what’s going on around here, I’m writing continuous pace on the thriller. It now has a working title for my publisher. Hush Little Baby. Which, I like a lot. I really do. Uh, there’ve been a couple of books titled that, but nothing huge and you can’t copyright a title. So nothing huge, nothing recent. So, Hush Little Baby, it will be HLB as I like to call it. And yesterday, I was lying in bed thinking about how I wanted to get a draft done in like a month, and you know 4,000 words a day or so on the days that I write. And then I was lying in bed, unable to sleep last night, dreading my next 4,000 word-day. I just don’t like doing 4,000 words a day. 2,000 to 3,000 is really comfortable for me. So, you know what I did?

If you’re watching on the video, you can see me holding up my calendar. Uh, I just wanted to mention, this is something I do a lot and something I teach a lot, is the art of rejiggering. When something becomes onerous, we, we, we, we jigger, we rejigger it so that it is not onerous. So that is not something to dread.

Also, I learned in teaching that a British people say rejig. Isn’t that interesting? They rejig things. We, Americans rejigger is how we say it. So I liked learning that fact. I rejiggered and I’m going to get it done by the end of January, which means I only have to do 2200 words on my writing days. And I was really honest.

When I do this, basically what I do, is I print out a blank calendar. I do not look at Google calendar, which is what I use everything else for because that’s too confusing. I print out a blank calendar and I do it on paper. I could make X’s through every day I’m not going to write, I try not to write on the weekends.

I know that I don’t write on travel days, no matter how much I tell myself I will. I have a silent retreat in January. No books, no phones, no paper. So no writing. So I will not be writing. Then I’m traveling a lot of January, so I needed to take out those days and do the math. And then once I know how many days that are actually good writing time, or I’ll get my one to three hours of writing on those days, uh, you can write whole books in just 30 minutes a day, people.

I promise that’s how I did it for a long time before I went full time. Um. Then I get- then I’ve got a new math, and I’ve got new math to hit, and it is always okay to rejigger your goals. We do it a lot, and relaxing around that and accepting the fact that things change and you’re not doing anything wrong is huge.

Speaking of not doing anything wrong, just about, oh an hour ago or so, I finished this uh, course, this semester’s course of the 90 days to done class that I teach. This was the –  I do in 90 days to done class, where you write your book in 90 days with me, and then I do a 90 days to revision class where you revise it.

This was the first one, the writing the book and the people in it. Oh, my heart. My heart is so full; I can’t explain what it is like to be the one witnessing the community coming together. It was a writing community coming together to support each other, and I cried during the call. I cried afterward when one of the people who just finished her book today, her first book today, on the last day of class, uh, when she emailed me, I just feel incredibly verklempt and overcome and again, this is a plea to you to find community where you are. I cannot write my books by myself. I mean, I actually could, and I did write my first one by myself, but I was, it was so hard. It’s so much easier to do it with community and you’re already part of this one. So, um, if you have not joined my onward writers Slack channel, do that. It’s free. You just write your goals, people talk back and forth to each other. Uh, that link is always www.howdoyouwrite.net and or on any place else, you can find that or email me if you can’t find a link to that Slack channel. 

One thing that is brand new community that I did want to mention to you is, I don’t think I’ve said this on this show, but I’m doing this thing called, Tuesday Morning Write-ins with Rachael and we just started it this last Tuesday, and it was phenomenal. Basically what it is, you can join if you’d like. It’s $49 a month, and for that price, you show up on Tuesday mornings in the United States and we write together for two hours. What happens is we show up in the zoom room, simple app to use. Um, everybody can see each other and we wave at each other, and I talk a little.

Encouraging talk to you for a few minutes and then we share with each other what we are going to be working on. And then guess what? We write for about 45 minutes. We take a little coffee break, we go brush our teeth if we need to do what we need to, and then come back and we write for another 45 minutes or so together.

And I know it sounds weird, but you can always flip over to zoom and see people with their writing faces on it. And it’s really funny. I know my writing face is ridiculous and my mouth is always moving back and forth. Of course, if you want to turn the screen off while you’re writing, you can do that, but I really encourage leaving it on because nobody’s looking at you. They’re looking at their words, unless they’re glancing at you and then you don’t feel alone. You are writing together. You’re not looking at Facebook, we already closed all that. Your phone is not within reach. It is the early morning and you’re doing your work once a week on Tuesdays together. So if you are interested in that, go to http://rachaelheron.com/tuesday. 

http://rachaelheron.com/tuesday is so cool, and what was the other thing I wanted to tell you? Oh yes, it is hella early for West coast of the United States. I neglected to say this at the very beginning. We write from 5 to 7 and the reason we write, write from 5:00 to 7:00AM is because looking at all the United States time zones, then the East coast is doing from 8 to 10 and I know that really gets in the way of things like, child running around and working. So that’s about the latest that the East coast can go. So West coast, we’re looking at 5 to 7. What that means is we have started basically hashtag smug club, because once you do your writing on Tuesdays, you wonder around the rest of your day feeling completely smug because you have done this with community.

And boy, do you sleep well that night? If you live on the West coast and haven’t gotten up at like 4:55 to get to the screen at 5, you do not need to look good. Bedhead and pajamas are encouraged. Please wear clothing of some sort. Um, it’s really great for Europeans. However, it’s about 2:00 PM for them. I believe I’ve got one or two Europeans attending, New Zealand and Australia, you are unfortunately, I know that you’re three hours behind me tomorrow. So that would be 2:00 AM for you so I don’t think we’ll ever be seeing the Southern hemisphere in this particular iteration, but it is fun. So check that out if you would like to.

I’d like to thank a couple of new Patreon subscribers. Thank you so, so much Amy Tessakata. Hi, Amy. She upped her edit, her- she edited her pledge to the $5 level at which I become mini coach for those many podcasts. Thank you, thank you, Amy. Clint White is new, as well as Johnston. Thank you again to all of you who support me on Patreon. It means I get to write the essays that I love and that I release nowhere else. The, none of these are out in the world yet they’re just on patreon and they are about living your creative life, so thank you very much for that.

So yes, I hope that your writing is getting done. You’re getting a little bit if you are not, if the holidays have you frazzled, sit down and rejigger it. Honestly, really pay attention to the voice that says, “Oh no, you are not going to write on the day that aunt Jane is coming into town” because she’s such a pain in the ass and you are going to be frazzled from the morning you open your eyes. And perhaps you’ll look at your calendar and write down those Tuesday mornings that you’ll be writing with us. Hell, I don’t even care, you don’t have to come to the zoom room. You could be writing at that time period, which is 5:00 AM Pacific standard time on your own, not in the zoom, but knowing that there are a bunch of amazing people doing the same thing at the same time. So think about that. Get some writing then, let me know how it goes. Thank you for listening and please, please enjoy Jeremy Spillman. 

[00:09:29] Hey, you’re a writer. Did you know that I send out a free weekly email of writing encouragement? Go sign up for it at http://rachaelherron.com/write and you’ll also get my stop stalling and write PDF with helpful tips you can use today to get some of your own writing done. Okay, now on to the interview.

Rachael Herron: [00:09:51] All right, well, I could not be more excited to welcome today to the show, Jeremy Spillman. Hi, Jeremy. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:09:56] Hello, how are you, Rachael?

Rachael Herron: [00:09:59] I’m good. I’m glad to talk to you and I’m looking really, I know that probably everybody says this, but I’m looking forward to your accent. Please lay it on thick. Let me give you a little bio here.

Kentucky born and bred, Jeremy’s Spillman moved to Nashville, Tennessee to pursue his dream of success as a songwriter at 24. It would be five years before he landed his first cut by a major label artist and signed a publishing deal. Since then, Jeremy has had songs recorded by Eric Church, Tim McGraw, Keith Urban, Reba McEntire, Luke Bryan, and many more. Spillman lives with his wife and four sons south of Nashville, TN. He considers his role as a father the most important in his life. When he’s not writing novels and songs or recording music, he’s supporting his sons at football and basketball games and spending time with his family at home. His debut novel, The DeVine Devils, was released just, this last September 24, 2019, with an accompanying soundtrack EP and full-cast audiobook. The music was written by Spillman with Nashville songwriters Randy Montana and Dean Dillon and recorded and produced by Spillman at his home studio. For more about his debut novel The DeVine Devils and the soundtrack, visit www.jeremyspillman.com.

Rachael Herron: [00:11:05] Welcome to the show! 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:11:07] Glad to be here.

Rachael Herron: [00:11:10] That sounds really, really cool. Especially the soundtrack. Did you approach the book writing with a soundtrack in mind or was that something that came after? 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:11:18] Um, yeah. This is a very, convoluted, it’s kind of way to tell the story. But I wanted to make a certain kind of music, so I wanted to do like cowboy rock. 

Rachael Herron: [00:11:31] Yes

Jeremy Spillman: [00:11:32] And you’re allowed to laugh.

Rachael Herron: [00:11:33] No, I’m deep into cowboy country music. I’m, I’m an old school country music kind of girl. So yeah.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:11:39] Okay. Okay. So I want to do a record, like the Eagles’ Desperado record

Rachael Herron: [00:11:43] Yes

 Jeremy Spillman: [00:11:44] or like bad company’s, bad company. And so there’s just, not much marketability for that in today’s market, you know? So, uh, I thought, well, I’m going to write this story around this record and see if I could maybe scare up some, something there. And so, so I started, uh, trying to write a story so I could make the music, but then the story kind of overtook the music…

Rachael Herron: [00:12:11] That’s so cool

 Jeremy Spillman: [00:12:12] and I ended up, yeah, the music ended up kinda – kinda more of what the book was. It’s not like a 180 from where I started musically, but it definitely, the book became bigger than the music, so the music had to fit the book. 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:26] That is not what I was expecting you to say. And that is really cool and that makes me know that I’m gonna download the album too, because that sounds what I love. I’m actually in a seventies band. We play yacht rock and some of that smooth 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:12:42] How awesome! 

Rachael Herron: [00:12:43] rock of that time, so…

Jeremy Spillman: [00:12:44] What are you playing?

Rachael Herron: [00:12:45] I’m just a singer. Oh, I just show up.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:12:48] It’s not just a singer, you’re like the- you’re the star

Rachael Herron: [00:12:52] I love doing it. But yeah, in my, in my family, this is the kind of music we were raised with. So, so you’ve been a Nashville songwriter, which is, to me, kind of super, super dreamy, like that’s living a dream. Um, what, how does the writing process differ? How does it feel different? I mean, obviously, you know, a song is three minutes and a novel is however much time of your life that it took, but how else did it differ? 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:13:22] It felt like, you know, um, it felt like I was using the same muscles creatively. Um, I definitely learned I couldn’t do both things on the same day, so it took five years to write the book, and that was with a couple of, I got a cabin in the mountains by myself and like, enough food for a week and a half and literally didn’t leave. And that’s how I finished it. But, uh, you know, for a songwriter, for somebody who’s tried to condense their stories into three, three and a half minute things, it was, it was pretty liberating to be able to try to, you know, expand and expound on whatever character I was talking about. And, and, uh, I think like creativity feeds creativity. So I think writing a novel in some ways made me a better songwriter. And I think, I don’t – I don’t mean this arrogantly, but I think maybe I had a little better grasp on of a book because I’m creative. I guess, I’m saying-

Rachael Herron: [00:14:23] Absolutely.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:03] I have a little bit of grasp on the creativity. I’m not that, uh, you know, obviously everybody wants to write the great American novel. Not that I did that, but I think I had a grasp on what I needed to do. 

Rachael Herron: [00:14:36] That you are used to selling commercially something that you have born from creativity. So that you, you were already over that hurdle. You’re used to that, whereas a lot of people can’t quite blend their creativity yet with, with presenting it in the world. So you must’ve had that also on top of it. So to keep five years to, to write, um, did you know where the book was going when you were writing it, or were your kind of following it?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:03] No. What do they call that? Pancing?

Rachael Herron: [00:15:05] Pancing. A-huh.   

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:07] Uh, definitely pancing. Uh, you know, I, I had the concept, and knew broadly how I wanted it to end, but no, I did not know details. So they came as, as I was writing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:19] Did you sell it beforehand or did you write it on spec and then sell it?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:23] No, no, I self-publish. 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:24] Oh, you self-publish? Well that’s even better!

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:26] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:15:27] How fascinating. I love that. I am a hybrid writer. I, traditionally and I self-publish, so no wonder you got to really make this the dream of your heart then. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:38] Well, I, you know… 

Rachael Herron: [00:15:40] Especially with the music around it, 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:41] I’ve been in a publishing deal for two decades, the song publishing deal.

Rachael Herron: [00:15:46] You understand publishing.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:15:41] Well, it is you know, it’s a different thing, but you know, you’re still selling your soul a little bit. Um, but, um, I’d never talked to a publisher; there’s a couple of, uh, published authors here in Nashville. I wrote a subpetty’s; is one that lives here, and, um, I got to talk to- kind of get there, evaluation of their workload as a published author. And then I’ve got to talk to a couple of self-published people who were doing well as self-published authors. And I thought, you know, I just want to own something. So, um, I never talked to a publisher, you know, who knows what would’ve happened. But, um, I’ve proudly self-published it. We’ll see what happens.

Rachael Herron: [00:16:35] Um, same way with myself published books. Um, the ones that I don’t even offer to my agent, uh, the covers’ gorgeous too. I just assumed you were a tad published because it’s a stunning cover and you hired a publicist who contacted me about talking to you. So that’s not the norm for indie writers.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:16:50] Well, we, I think because we live in Nashville. I have access to things like that. She’s a friend, she’s a professional publicist, but she’s a friend. And, uh, but the artist who did the cover was a lady from, uh, North Carolina, Robin Boschnik. She’s amazing like, and that was her concept. I literally,

Rachael Herron: [00:17:09] it’s really, it’s gorgeous. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:17:11] I told her, I said, I don’t want two silhouettes of cowboys on the front, like every western, like, she asked for scenes, you know, she wanted important scenes in the novel and she came up to that. Props to her.

Rachael Herron: [00:17:24] Oh, that’s awesome. I’ve written a couple of westerns and my heart belongs with the western genre, I think like I was my, I broke teeth chewing on Louis L’Amour books, you know, and I’ve read every single one, and I think I’ll always be, I’ll always love that. So what is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing? And this can be any kind of writing. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:17:47] Ah, well, I think it depends on what period I’m in. If I’m in a, you know, as a writer, uh, um, I’m not, uh, uh, even kill dude, I’m high or low, and so if I’m high, it’s, um kind of focusing myself on the task at hand. If I’m below, it’s probably self-doubt and I think that applies to the book and to songs, you know, 

Rachael Herron: [00:18:15] That’s a beautifully simple way of putting it, exactly.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:18:18] Yeah

Rachael Herron: [00:18:19] And what is your biggest joy when it comes to writing? 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:18:24] Again, I would say that that would change. I, I thought as a song writer, like, um, I always thought like having a few hits or, or whatever, getting a few accolades with, I still can say that my biggest joy is the process and, and I think that process changes. I think when I started like writing this song was the joy now. It’s more like the whole process, like recording the song and, and you know, producing the song. Anything that I get to like really big creative at, gives me joy. And, and the, you know, when something is successful, um, I’m not good at it. I’ve never been good at like feeling that, like I always don’t want to think about it. I want to think about the next thing I’m doing. And I don’t know if that’s healthy or not, but for me, it’s not healthy to look at, you know, what I’ve done or what I’ve got going on right now. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:20] Yeah 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:19:20] It’s just healthy to keep my head in the creative process. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:23] Oh, that’s awesome. That makes so much sense. Can you share a craft tip of any sort with us about writing in any way?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:19:33] Uh. This is probably very elementary to somebody like you who’s written a bunch of, uh, books. But, um, when I was writing the characters in my book, I had a great editor, Alice Sullivan. She was amazing. And you know, I think, I don’t know if this is normal or not, but when she edited the book, there was, she had over like 5,000 comments. And some of them were good comments and some are bad comments. 

Rachael Herron: [00:19:58] That’s pretty normal. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:20:00] But, I was good at describing the big things, but I wasn’t good at describing the little things. If a dude popped up, you know, that had, we’ll say in a paragraph, she would say, “Hey, give me something like, tell me he’s got a handlebar mustache.” And so I think my rep, what I really learned from my editor was they have to see everything. And I know, I knew that in songwriting, like if they can’t see the song, it’s not gonna, it’s – doesn’t work. It’s being country music especially, but in the book, you know, like, I wanted to, you know, wax poetic on these big scenes, but on the little scenes I was just passing through and she’s like, “A-huh, nope.” I gotta, you know, when I turned the, the, uh, the book into her, it was 89,000 words, and after we finished the, we went with two edits, I guess, and it was over a 100,000 now.

Rachael Herron: [00:20:53] Wow. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:20:54] So, she basically had me add 11,000 words to the book, and that was all little tiny descriptive things. So that was the lesson I learned. 

Rachael Herron: [00:21:03] She does sound really great. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:21:04] She is amazing. 

Rachael Herron: [00:21:06] Oh my gosh. Okay, so what thing in your life affects your writing in a surprising way?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:21:13] I think, uh, my sons and, and uh, in a, in a weird way, they, uh, uh, they make, they make me not be as selfish… that creatively, it becomes about more than me. It’s like, okay, I’m doing this so they can have a good life so they can live in a good place. And that does like, I think after you’ve done something for a while, you can lose some fire for it. You know, it’s it, it becomes old hat a little bit, but that kind of lights my fire a little bit. It’s like, okay, I’ve got these four boys, I got to get them through college, I got to do all this stuff for, that’s why I’m doing what I’m doing now. It’s not just because I want people to think, Jeremy Spillman is a brilliant writer like I did when I was, you know, in my twenties. So I think having a family has very much been positive influence on my creativity. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:10] I will ask you another question that is not on the list of questions that I sent you, but I was just looking over your bio… um, I am sober 19 months. So, um…

Jeremy Spillman: [00:22:20] Congratulations 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:22] Thank you. That’s pretty still pretty new to me. How does sobriety affect your writing and particularly now, I’m very curious about country music, because I find it sometimes, when my first year sobriety was actually hard to listen to country music because every single goddamn song was about what I wanted to drink. And you’re surrounded by that. So how, this is just, just a personal Rachael question, I want to know the answer to, how does that affect you? 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:22:46] Um, so, um, 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:48] was it 16 years, is that right?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:22:50] it’ll be, it’s gotta be 15 years. The 31st of October, yeah, 15 years. 

Rachael Herron: [00:22:56] Oh my gosh. Wow.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:22:58] Yeah. I was so messed up when they put me in rehab. I didn’t know it was Halloween. I probably would’ve stayed out another day, but, uh, but, uh, you know, it was, the first year was pretty tough, creatively. Um, I did all the things, I did all of the things that you probably know about it. I really did the steps. You know, I was single when I got sober, so I didn’t date or anything for a year. I didn’t, I had an old school AA sponsor. I mean,

Rachael Herron: [00:23:28] Call me every day?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:23:30] Yes, she had staff meetings every day, you know. Um, and I’ll never forget, I had a buddy of mine who has been a good friend, um, for a long time, and he’d been sober. He’s been sober a lot longer than me, but at the time, I think he’d been sober 10 years and there was this rock band that I’d always written with down in Atlanta, and I’ve been sober six months. And so they called my publisher in there, said, “Hey, uh, can ya’ll send Jeremy down to Atlanta next weekend? Uh, we got a bus, like we want to write with Jeremy.” And so I freaked out. I’m like, Oh my God. Like, you know, it was a good opportunity, but I didn’t know if I could do it cause I’d always, that was party central. And, um, and so I called this friend of mine who’s in the business and had been sober for a while and, and I really wanted him to go, man, you can’t do that. You’d know, better than that. And so I told him the situation and he said, um. Uh, I said, what do you think I need to do? He said, I think you need to get your ass to Atlanta. And I said, what? And he goes, dude, do you want to be a songwriter? And I’m like. Yeah. And he said, well, then you’re going to have to learn to, to handle this. Like, you know, if you can’t be around alcohol, how are you going to be in the music business? So I made peace with that pretty early. Like, and I still, I mean, I was out on the bus a month ago, you know, for four days with a band and a lot of drinking’s, some drugs. I mean, I just, they know I don’t do it, and, and It’s not a problem. Like it’s, I’ve just learned to, um… if it gets too weird, I’d crawl in my bunk, you know what I mean, pull the curtain. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:18] There’s an old timer in my group who always says, if the day gets bad enough, just go to bed. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:25:24] Yeah. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:25] Go sleep and you’ll wake up and it’ll be tomorrow.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:25:27] A 100%. And creatively, I think about, we’re about a year I learned to write again, but it took me a year, because I pulled from that, you know, that ball attention that, you know, cause you’re screwing up everything and man, there’s a lot of energy there. 

Rachael Herron: [00:25:46] Sure is

Jeremy Spillman: [00:25:48] Good creative juices flowing there. But I think I had to learn to pull from life. I think I had to learn to just use my brain instead of, you know, uh, being in some ways I think it was cowardly, like a, I was creating tension and drama and things just so I could be creative and I had to like actually stand up and, you know, try to be a good man and, and write from life as opposed to, you know, screwing up everybody else’s life to try to have something to write about. But, um, yeah, I think, I think for a year creatively it was really tough because I had to learn a new way to- I knew I had to go to a new will to draw. 

Rachael Herron: [00:26:36] I really liked how you say that. Yeah. Um, 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:26:38] But congrats on 19 months. That’s a big deal.

Rachael Herron: [00:26:40] Thank you. The thing that keeps flooring me is, is how strong my brain is now. I really thought I was losing it. Like I just, I thought I was getting dumb and I was getting dumb. I was literally killing brain cells and the way that they’ve come back and the way I’m able to write with so much more clarity and precision and energy, 19 months later, still astonishing to me. So it’s pretty exciting. That’s one of the reasons I wanted you on the show.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:27:07] and it just keeps getting, your brain will keep getting better. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:09] It’s amazing

Jeremy Spillman: [00:27:11] It really does. 

Rachael Herron: [00:27:13] It’s so great. It’s like one of the biggest, biggest benefits, and there’s basically nothing but benefits in my life about it itself. Um, what is the best book you’ve read recently, and why’d you love it? 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:27:25] I saw where you’re going to ask me this question, I’m nervous to answer, but, but um, I’m gonna say, Oh, I always hate rooting for the big dog, but where the crowded sayings, is just blowing my mind like her, that the writing in that book is so, like, the story’s amazing to not taken away from the story, but just her use of language just, I mean, I’m just, I’m flabbergasted at how good it is.

Rachael Herron: [00:27:48] I’m glad you said it because I own it and I started a chapter and maybe I was in a bad mood I didn’t get past the first chapter and everybody says it’s a sublime, so I’m going to keep going. Just pick it up and start it over again. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:28:02] I hate rooting for the big dog and like, and when something’s got so much hype, I just naturally go, uh-uh. But it really, it’s worth it. Like she is, she’s really brilliant and noble.

Rachael Herron: [00:28:13] I look forward to sending you an email saying you were right, that, that’ll be great. All right. What would you like to tell us about now? Would you please tell us about the book a little bit about what it’s about, where people can find it? A little bit about the music, I love all of that.

Jeremy Spillman: [00:28:27] Um, so you can go anywhere, books are sold online, you can go find it. And, uh, um, you can go to my website, www.jeremyspillman.com if you for some reason would want a signed copy and buy one there. Um. And the soundtrack is on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, all those things. Uh, you don’t have to download it, you can just stream it. So whatever, whatever- 

Rachael Herron: [00:28:50] if I like something like, I usually stream it on Spotify first, but if I’m going to play it a lot on Spotify, I always buy it. I’m old school like that. And then you can stream on Spotify with that. Yeah, exactly. And then I can stream on Spotify to my heart’s content. I never feel guilty; you know? Yeah. 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:29:06] But the, the music was, I did it. I’m the band except the fiddle and the vocals. And so we did it here in my home studio right here where you’re interviewing me. And, uh, uh, uh, Ross Holmes is the fiddle player. He plays for a band Cobnitty Gritty Dark band.

Rachael Herron: [00:29:23] Oh, never heard of that one

Jeremy Spillman: [00:29:26] Yeah, and he, uh, and then Randy Montana is the vocal, the lead vocalist, and Ken Johnson’s background vocalist. And both of those guys are humongous songwriters. Randy was an artist for a little while, you could, you could find some stuff online about him, but, um, yeah, we just had a lot of fun. Like, it was fun for us as songwriters, because we got to kind of get out of maybe the, the commercial, the commercial lanes are very narrow as far as music goes. So we get to kind of get outside of that. But I’m working on the audio book now, which is full cast, has music, sound effects, and it’s, it’s read by, it’s narrated by my hero. This, this name probably won’t mean anything to you unless your huge country music buff, but a Dane Dylan. So Dane, is a hall of fame songwriter, he wrote all the George straight hits and a ton of other things, but they narrate it. And uh, uh, yeah, it’s very, I hope it works. It’s what I wanted. It’s very Southern. It’s very swanky. It’s like, you know, there’s music coming and going. It’s, it’s, I think it’s a very original audio book in the way it’s done, but that won’t be done till, I’m hoping we get it out the middle of November. 

Rachael Herron: [00:30:45] Oh, that’s so cool. That is so cool. I’m so glad that you are on the show today. Can I ask you the dumbest question?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:31:51] Sure

Rachael Herron: [00:30:52] That you may really roll your eyes and fall out of your chair. But, um, do, do people in Nashville or, or people like you, did you watch the show Nashville when it was on?

Jeremy Spillman: [00:31:02] I did. Now, some people do, some people do.

Rachael Herron: [00:31:08] I only watched the first two or three seasons, and then I jumped to Shark. But I loved it and I, I’ve got it. I’m going to Nashville next year for a conference in 2020, and I’m going to go to the Bluebird, and 

Jeremy Spillman: [00:31:20] I think; I think it was probably a good show. I had a song that was the, uh, on one of their commercials, I had a song that they used of mine on that I wrote with a band called Little Big Town that was, they use for their promo for a while. But, um, 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:36] Wow!

Jeremy Spillman: [00:31:37] But I think watching Nashville for a guy like me, it’s like, it’s almost like if you, if your job’s picking strawberries, you don’t want to come home and eat strawberries. You know, it was a little bit like that to me, but I’m sure it was a good show. I did not watch it because of quality or anything and just, 

Rachael Herron: [00:31:54] There was a 911 show also with Connie Britton actually, who was in Nashville and I can’t, I did 911 for years and I cannot, no, I do not want to watch that. So same thing. Yeah. Well, you’re a delight. Thank you so much for talking to us today and I’m happy writing. I’m going to run right out right now and grab the soundtrack so,

Jeremy Spillman: [00:32:12] Awesome. Thank you very much. 

Rachael Herron: [00:32:14] Thanks, Jeremy. Will talk to you soon. Bye. 

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of “How do you Write?” You can reach me on Twitter, https://twitter.com/RachaelHerron or at my website, http://rachaelherron.com, you can also support me on Patreon and get essays on living your creative life for as little as a buck an essay at https://www.patreon.com/rachael spelled R, A, C, H, A, E, L and do sign up for my free weekly newsletter of encouragement to writers http://rachaelherron.com/write. Now, go to your desk and create your own process. Get to writing my friends.